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Birthday Stakes Weights

West Australian Racing
Can the handicapping experts give a credible reason for the weight difference between the top 2 weighted runners.

http://www.rwwa.com.au/cris/racefield.aspx?meeting=16807&race=1.

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  • LeglessLegless    5,108 posts
    edited September 2016
    .
  • GaryHGaryH    1,012 posts
    edited September 2016
    Its not a handicap.  Another one of these SW&P specials.  Doesn't matter how many group 3 races you win after two......?

    Colts and Geldings, 55.0 kg. Fillies, 53.0 kg. No
    allowance for apprentices.The winner of a race
    of the advertised value to the winner of $300,000
    or more to carry 4.5kg extra, of two or more such
    races 5.5kg extra. The winnerof a race of the advertised
    value to the winner of $150,000 or more to
    carry3.5kg extra, of two or more such races 4.5kg
    extra. The winnerof a race of the advertised value
    to the winner of $80,000 or more to carry2.5kg
    extra, of two or more such races 3.5kg extra. The
    winner of a race ofthe advertised value to the
    winner of $60,000 or more to carry 1.5kg extra,of
    two or more such races 2.5kg extra.Penalties
    applicable for wins in races conducted on or after
    1 August 2014.
  • FastmoneyFastmoney    4,912 posts
    Flawed conditions.
  • careycarey    6,368 posts
    they are idiotic conditions dreamt up by you know who.
    anyway the reason will be there in the money won and the sex allowancce.......
    and the grammar errors are not mine!


    BIRTHDAY STAKES
    LISTED RACE
    For Four-Years-Old & Upwards
    Open
    Of $100,000; 1st $64,000; 2nd $20,000; 3rd
    $9,000; 4th $4,000; 5th $2,000; 6th $1,000.
    Colts and Geldings, 55.0 kg. Fillies, 53.0 kg. No
    allowance for apprentices.The winner of a race
    of the advertised value to the winner of $300,000
    or more to carry 4.5kg extra, of two or more such
    races 5.5kg extra. The winnerof a race of the advertised
    value to the winner of $150,000 or more to
    carry3.5kg extra, of two or more such races 4.5kg
    extra. The winnerof a race of the advertised value
    to the winner of $80,000 or more to carry2.5kg
    extra, of two or more such races 3.5kg extra. The
    winner of a race ofthe advertised value to the
    winner of $60,000 or more to carry 1.5kg extra,of
    two or more such races 2.5kg extra.Penalties
    applicable for wins in races conducted on or after
    1 August 2014. Acceptance, $500. Discretionary
    Balloting. 1200 metres
  • ChelseaChelsea    1,369 posts
    edited September 2016
    That's how Stuffed up this system is,if Perfect Reflection had been in the race who is a Group 1 winner (winner of a race over $300k) of close to $900k in prizemoney,would carry 57.5 the same as Lite'n In My Veins. Surely that's not right? So if Wink And A Nod wins this race she will go into the Northerly Stakes with the exact same weight.
    They go on about having small field's on a Saturday.this is a perfect way to insure that they remain small.

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  • thefalconthefalcon    19,949 posts
    there is only a 2.5kg weight span in the race...

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  • frenc11frenc11    102 posts
    if i owned   lite'n in my veins  , i would scratch the horse
  • NgawyniNgawyni    738 posts
    And the best part is, when the horse that's thrown in at the weights wins, they only get a small or sometimes no ratings penalty because they're only doing what the ratings say they should do. So for them it's a free hit in every sense.

    Chelsea, frenc11 likes this post.

  • RodentRodent    7,025 posts
    If they wanted it to be a proper SWP race, it should reflect WA prizemoney levels. I think they dreamt this system up as a Barakey benefit didn't they? I still think he lost despite being thrown in at the weights  =))

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  • careycarey    6,368 posts
    Rodent said:

    If they wanted it to be a proper SWP race, it should reflect WA prizemoney levels. I think they dreamt this system up as a Barakey benefit didn't they? I still think he lost despite being thrown in at the weights  =))

    imo, yes that was the reason.

    the dills wanted to protect the best horses that were already winning more than their expected share by miles.
    and this is what happens in bureaucracies where your job is safe regardless of performance, and probably also because there is nobody there smart enough to realise what has happened and who is responsible for it happening.

    you make good betting races, by trying to ensure every horse has its chance, not by dishing out favours.

    i also notice that the 3yo swp races are back where the base weight for 3yo fillies is 53 and 55 for the colts/geldings.
    then the idiots make a limit of 54....htf can you give a set weght and then stop the horse from carrying it?
    mr hunter on twitter tried to defend the indefensible, in what to me was an admission that he has no idea.
    now he has gone from the handicapping department supposedly, but unfortunately, the new boss of it is from the same mould, and he has no idea either imo.

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  • psychopsycho    653 posts
    These conditions could only have been dreamt up by a dill like Mike Nahan, iron ore prices are "guaranteed" and so are these rediculous races, they are as enticing as some of the food on offer at Belmont

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  • jumjum    3,512 posts
    Going off CRIS. This race is race 1 of the day  @ 12.46 PM and the Maiden is the last event of the day. Surely this is incorrect :-O

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  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    Shirley they have it wrong???? Then again the handicapping is very handicapped looking, so maybe that handicapper is also responsible for the race program as well... ;))

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  • psychopsycho    653 posts
    Maiden is race 2 and BIG race is race 7

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  • jumjum    3,512 posts
    psycho said:

    Maiden is race 2 and BIG race is race 7



    They have changed it then, Thank Farkk for common sense

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  • GaryHGaryH    1,012 posts
    frenc11 said:

    if i owned   lite'n in my veins  , i would scratch the horse

    Lucky you don't own it.....  Odds were a little "over" on a horse with these weight conditions.

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  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    GaryH said:

    frenc11 said:

    if i owned   lite'n in my veins  , i would scratch the horse

    Lucky you don't own it.....  Odds were a little "over" on a horse with these weight conditions.
    A sensational ride by Pike chewed up the majority of those about 8kgs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    :((

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  • frenc11frenc11    102 posts
    GaryH said:

    frenc11 said:

    if i owned   lite'n in my veins  , i would scratch the horse

    Lucky you don't own it.....  Odds were a little "over" on a horse with these weight conditions.
    the handicaper was spot on , it was thrown in at the weights
  • LeglessLegless    5,108 posts
    2 of the 3 top weights finished 1& 2

    says it all really


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  • GaryHGaryH    1,012 posts
    Legless said:

    2 of the 3 top weights finished 1& 2

    says it all really


    Best horses ran well in the race, turn over was good on the race......  Positive all round for the industry?

      I don't mind these races that give an advantage to the higher ratings horses, so long as it doesn't do so at the cost of turn over (i.e. one horse is a clear advantage so no one take the $1.50)

  • LeglessLegless    5,108 posts
    they have been doing it for years over east GH - particularly with mares races - I would think it unusual for a #1 saddle cloth to win one of these at $14 :-O


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  • FastmoneyFastmoney    4,912 posts
    GaryH said:

    Legless said:

    2 of the 3 top weights finished 1& 2

    says it all really


    Best horses ran well in the race, turn over was good on the race......  Positive all round for the industry?

      I don't mind these races that give an advantage to the higher ratings horses, so long as it doesn't do so at the cost of turn over (i.e. one horse is a clear advantage so no one take the $1.50)

    Birthday Stakes (8 runners both years)

    ...........Win......Place

    2015....132k....54k
    2016....120k....40k

    Not sure 14% decrease in turnover is a positive.

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  • LeglessLegless    5,108 posts
    has it been on GF day previously?

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  • FastmoneyFastmoney    4,912 posts
    edited October 2016
    Legless said:

    has it been on GF day previously?

    In 2015 yes (with WC in the GF).

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  • LeglessLegless    5,108 posts
    edited October 2016
    cant lay blame at the GF then
    only 8 starters last year and also I notice only a 2.5kg spread in the weights. BHB who won ( #1@ $3.70) only carried 2.5kg more than Hazzabeel whose best win was in a 72+

    Was it run under the same conditions last year
  • FastmoneyFastmoney    4,912 posts
    SW&P conditions flawed

    Turnover disgraceful.

    Recent conversation with RWWA Exec stated that there is no communication between RWWA handicappers/graders and Tabtouch when conditions of individual races change and the resultant turnover, regardless of increase or decrease.


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  • BucksBucks    158 posts
    Lite'n in my Veins awarded an extra 14 ratings points for it's win in the birthday stakes. 
    Great shot runs 2nd and gets an extra 3 ratings points
  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    10,236 posts
    What!? So it is penalised hugely for "running out of its class", but has to carry top weight?

    Just weird. Cant wait to hear @carey and @Ngawyni weigh in here
  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    10,236 posts
    and further to that, it is just more evidence to suggest that these are benefit races for 1 or 2 horses, clearly LIMV wasn't supposed to win on the weekend. But then again, Great Shot wasnt either and started at 2.10?!
  • silkysilky    342 posts
    Not sure how they worked it out myself but probably not a bad result for LIMV as connections are wanting to run him in the Railway. He might sneak in with a light weight on that rating where as he would have and still might have to win one of the lead up races to be exempt from the ballot

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