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Stallion Fee's WA

Breeding
DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,660 posts
edited April 2015 Breeding
Scenic Lodge announced today their fee's for the upcoming breeding season. When official announcements are published I will post them here but feel free to post what others may be doing.

Blackfriars $13,200

Snippetson $7,150

Universal Ruler $6,150

Dash For Cash $4,400

Comments

  • paraleticparaletic    3,750 posts
    Uni Ruler still a decent price. I also like dash 4 cash. How many mares he get last season or is this his first in wa?
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,660 posts
    paraletic said:

    Uni Ruler still a decent price. I also like dash 4 cash. How many mares he get last season or is this his first in wa?

    46 for Dash For Cash
  • NgawyniNgawyni    738 posts
    Trade Fair is $6,600 (inc GST) for 2015. I would probably lean to Trade Fair over UR at the price given UR has still to produce any stakes winners. Even if we give him Rebel King (who hasn't won a stakes race yet), that's still only one. 

    Plus UR had only 16 live foals in each of 2012 and 2013 (compared with 56 and 45 foals in his first 2 seasons) so expect his number of winners to drop off with very few babies coming through in the next 2 years. He covered 127 mares in 2014 so he will likely come roaring back when that crop hits the track in late 2017 and with subsequent crops but in the meantime the hype may cool a bit.

    Trade Fair currently has few 2 yos because he had only 17 live foals from a small book of mares in 2011.He had 38 and 49 live foals in 2012 and 2013 and served 122 mares in 2014 so he should do a bit better than UR with more new runners in the next couple of years before also taking off when his 2014 covers hit the track in 2017. 
  • silkysilky    342 posts


    I would have liked to see UR stay at the same fee to keep his numbers up, so time will tell if breeders go to a different stallion this year. Admiration is starting to grow on me, his race performances in HK were fairly decent and his sire and dam sire are 2 of the best.

    whereamigoingwrong likes this post.

  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    Advertised fees are nothing more than that....... Advertising.
  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    Tivers said:

    Advertised fees are nothing more than that....... Advertising.

    In other words....as has been stated on here many times.....if you want to go to a certain bull, talk to the stud. I cant imagine anything in this industry isn't negotiable at the moment.

    We are just working through where we are going next season and UR is a 20/20 match for us. Saw the price had gone up and even Mrs RIO (who is actually the cross-nicks-breeding expert) said that doesn't really mean too much does it????

  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    Certainly not for Mrs RIO.................. :)
  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    silky said:



    Admiration is starting to grow on me, his race performances in HK were fairly decent and his sire and dam sire are 2 of the best.

    And you could suggest that had he raced in Australia he'd be a (multiple possibly) G1 winner.
    Competed shoulder to shoulder with some superstars.
    Lot tougher winning one in HK than here. (Apples for apples).

    whereamigoingwrong likes this post.

  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    Tivers said:

    Certainly not for Mrs RIO.................. :)

    haha...if we go that way she can ring and negotiate then!!!!
    ;)
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,660 posts
    RIO said:

    Tivers said:

    Advertised fees are nothing more than that....... Advertising.

    In other words....as has been stated on here many times.....if you want to go to a certain bull, talk to the stud. I cant imagine anything in this industry isn't negotiable at the moment.

    We are just working through where we are going next season and UR is a 20/20 match for us. Saw the price had gone up and even Mrs RIO (who is actually the cross-nicks-breeding expert) said that doesn't really mean too much does it????

    20/20 is a rating that only shows the number of times a particular mating might have a match, but it doesn't speak to whether that match works or not. Just be careful when using programs that come for free and ask yourself why would others pay hundreds for more in depth analysis ?

    The 20/20 rating system is purely to spike interest so that Studs can then field inquiries from client's about their Stallions. It is not an indication of that mating working in the slightest.
  • RIORIO    14,882 posts

    We use G1 primary as a starting point....we have found some are good crosses....others are very questionable, and why I now leave a lot of that stuff to her and then annoy Mrs RIO with dumb question....A life time habit that i have developed like an art form!!!

    I just wish you could go to a stud and ask for advice and get an honest response. How good would it be to hear "listen your mare isn't really a good match with any of our stallions, I'd be suggesting that you go to Stud X and have a chat with them"  Instead of. Yep your mare is a great match for our bull. Which is what you get when you ring every stud for a chat.

  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,660 posts
    RIO said:

    We use G1 primary as a starting point....we have found some are good crosses....others are very questionable, and why I now leave a lot of that stuff to her and then annoy Mrs RIO with dumb question....A life time habit that i have developed like an art form!!!

    I just wish you could go to a stud and ask for advice and get an honest response. How good would it be to hear "listen your mare isn't really a good match with any of our stallions, I'd be suggesting that you go to Stud X and have a chat with them"  Instead of. Yep your mare is a great match for our bull. Which is what you get when you ring every stud for a chat.

    Well if you have $300,000 and you take your mare to Galileo in Ireland or Fastnet Rock in The Hunter Valley, you would still be politely declined, because it is not about money at that level.

    If you want advice, you shouldn't go to a Stud as almost no Stud has the financial independence to say what is best for your mare or your dollar.

    In respect to using G1, you are not, You are using a marketing tool only. It is not a guide at all. I use the full professional program from G1 and the results are different.

    So be careful. It is only your money, your time, and the next couple of years to get a result that could or could not have been better qualified by better interpretation.
  • LeglessLegless    5,108 posts

    RIO said:

    We use G1 primary as a starting point....we have found some are good crosses....others are very questionable, and why I now leave a lot of that stuff to her and then annoy Mrs RIO with dumb question....A life time habit that i have developed like an art form!!!

    I just wish you could go to a stud and ask for advice and get an honest response. How good would it be to hear "listen your mare isn't really a good match with any of our stallions, I'd be suggesting that you go to Stud X and have a chat with them"  Instead of. Yep your mare is a great match for our bull. Which is what you get when you ring every stud for a chat.

    Well if you have $300,000 and you take your mare to Galileo in Ireland or Fastnet Rock in The Hunter Valley, you would still be politely declined, because it is not about money at that level.


    Its always about the money at that level !!!!

    The_Bull, Thoroly_Bread likes this post.

  • WinsumlosesumWinsumlosesum    138 posts
    edited April 2015
    Trade Fair is $6,600 (inc GST) for 2015. I would probably lean to Trade Fair over UR at the price given UR has still to produce any stakes winners. Even if we give him Rebel King (who hasn't won a stakes race yet), that's still only one.


    I could be wrong but trade fair has only had proceed with caution and cool trade as stakes winners? Happy to be corrected? Of not it's not a massive difference to RK and TF. Again happy to be corrected

    Winsumlosesum dislikes this post.

  • silkysilky    342 posts

    5 i think. PWC, Cool Trade, Fuchsia Bandana, Trade Storm and Packing Whiz

    Winsumlosesum likes this post.

  • WinsumlosesumWinsumlosesum    138 posts
    silky said:


    5 i think. PWC, Cool Trade, Fuchsia Bandana, Trade Storm and Packing Whiz

    Cheers silk. Like I said happy to be corrected. Have a friend that won't be happy I forgot fuchsia bandana as he owns a share ha ha

  • NgawyniNgawyni    738 posts
    Trade Fair has 8 SWs if you include his overseas ones who include Gr 1 winner Trade Storm. That said, he needs some more SWs as well. 8 from 303 runners is not a lot. A rough benchmark for commercial success is 60% winners to runners (which TF is close to) and 5% SWs to runners. So ideally at this point you would want him to have about twice as many SWs as he has had - which no doubt is why his fee hasn't moved much.


    http://www.arion.co.nz/StallionsRoster/StallionsRosterDisplay.aspx?Id=7761&Page=1

    Winsumlosesum likes this post.

  • Thoroly_BreadThoroly_Bread    2,311 posts
    Honestly there is not a stallion in WA I am excited about next season, probably a good chance I'll end up at Frost Giant
  • silkysilky    342 posts

    I like the look of Sessions. Has a decent pedigree and performed ok on the track without winning a group 1. What are peoples thoughts on him?
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,660 posts
    Trade Fair hasn't thrown a stakes winner to date from a Danehill line. That knock's a lot of mares. One of the things about his success to date, is that it has largely been overseas and even those here are from obscure damsire lines. So in saying he has 8 stakes winners to date and that is reason enough to go to him, I would look a bit deeper than that and see if that really is the best option.

    Frost Giant is no better and no worse than quite a few other Stallions in WA. Sending a mare to him would surely be on a breeding to race proposition.

    Who is your mare by ? I'm happy to throw a spanner into the works for consideration.

    Ngawyni dislikes this post.

  • NgawyniNgawyni    738 posts
    edited April 2015
    That's a good point Damien. I was attracted to Trade Fair because he is out of a Danehill mare which would allow for sex balanced duplications with mares by sons of Danehill. It would be interesting to know how many Trade Fair has had to race out of Danehill line mares and how many winners. Wild Charger appears to be about the best so far.
  • Thoroly_BreadThoroly_Bread    2,311 posts
    Mare is by Don't Say Halo, so far she has been to Passenger, Oratorio, Scandal Keeper and War Chant.

    Passenger was a crab Oratorio just come into work, lost the Scandal Keeper to a fence.
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,660 posts

    Mare is by Don't Say Halo, so far she has been to Passenger, Oratorio, Scandal Keeper and War Chant.

    Passenger was a crab Oratorio just come into work, lost the Scandal Keeper to a fence.

    I need either her name to explore her damside

    Thoroly_Bread likes this post.

  • The_BullThe_Bull    918 posts
    Would I be correct in saying that Trade Fair's current stakes performer Proceedwithcaution, was a $750 purchase at the mixed sale, and that his dam was sold at the same sale for $100?
  • Thoroly_BreadThoroly_Bread    2,311 posts
    edited April 2015

    Mare is by Don't Say Halo, so far she has been to Passenger, Oratorio, Scandal Keeper and War Chant.

    Passenger was a crab Oratorio just come into work, lost the Scandal Keeper to a fence.

    I need either her name to explore her damside
    Damon's Halo, Chi is her dam.
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,660 posts
    OK I will have something for you later this evening
  • NgawyniNgawyni    738 posts
    Damien do you have access to how many winners to starters Trade Fair has had from Danehill line mares? 
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,660 posts
    Ngawyni said:

    Damien do you have access to how many winners to starters Trade Fair has had from Danehill line mares? 

    no sorry, only that Danehill does not figure in any records for stakes winners
  • NgawyniNgawyni    738 posts
    No worries. Thanks. I'll try and find it from somewhere.
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,660 posts
    edited April 2015
    Damon's Halo by Don't Say Halo and out of an Ifrad mare, unfortunately
    this combination has not produced a stakes winner to date worldwide.

    Ifrad as a damsire has produced just one out of a Danzig mare when covered by Euclase.

    However
    Don't Say Halo as a damsire, removing Ifrad from the equation, has
    produced 35 stakes winners around the world. He has done this from a
    total of 31 different stallions, so it has been a good breeding line to a
    point. The best result has come through sons of Mr Prospector and Green
    Desert with three apiece, followed by Danehill sons with two, with 29
    others at one each.

    So bearing that in mind, we should start
    with hypothetical matings to WA stallions from the Mr Prospector line,
    then Danehill and finally those stallions that perhaps will have a
    chance commercially and when breeding to race to keep your options open.

    The standout selection both on commercial appeal and from a sireline that has worked with Don't Say Halo mares, is from Scenic Lodge in Dash For Cash. Not only is he the best performed racehorse standing as a stallion that is suitable for your mare, he is proven as a stakes producing stallion.

    Second pick would be Safeguard by Exceed And Excel. He is new this season and may have commercial appeal but he clicks with Danehill line mares via Don't Say Halo and Halo.

    I would consider Patronize by Redoute's Choice, but he can throw a big type and I don't know the size of your mare. From a breeding perspective you may want to look at Scandal Keeper who scores well, Admiration perhaps, Frost Giant maybe, Smug is not bad as well, followed by Planet Five.

    If she was my mare, I would be going to Scenic Lodge and their stallion Dash For Cash, as Secret Savings was responsible for Group 1 winner Shameka plus another black type winner. It's just a line that has worked for this damsire. He will be supported in the Magic Millions sale ring with yearling stock and it leaves the option open to you to retain to race if you want.

    If you want something from a first year stallion, then Mogumber Park's Safeguard is the type of horse that could throw a two year old quite easily. I have high hopes for him in WA as I think he can make it given the right opportunities.

    From a purchasers perspective, I would look closely at both these matings if offered in well conformed yearlings at any sale. I just think they work.

    Now this information is supplied as a guide only. Obviously there is no charge for it, but as I have said before, as an agent I receive a commission for bookings I make on behalf of clients. I have a very good working relationship with either of these studs, and I'm sure you would be happy with the deal I could broker. Let me know if I can assist further. Damien
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