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Which Stallion/s are PTT's Breeding with this season?

Breeding

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  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,687 posts
    Recently spoke to connections of Demerit. His book is essentially full this year. I have a mare in foal to him for my client and she will return this season as well. Same client races one with Jim Taylor and the latest purchase went to Brett Pope.

    It is now cheaper to breed a Demerit, if it is a nice type, than try and buy it in February. I don't know the quality of the mares that are booked to him this year, but I presume it is an upgrade on his first crops, as he has done a reasonable job. Currently he is almost at 50% winners to runners but a couple of consistent Saturday horses would be the next step for him as no matter how much you can get one to the track for, you need to win Saturday's to cover the ever increasing costs associated with getting them there.
  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    Now you're talking my language :)
  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    I still think Demerits are struggling

    This years 2yr olds. 2013 serves

    Flying Pegasus 6 returns, 5 named, 2 to race, both city winners..33% city winners
    Demerit 26 returns, 17 named, 5 to race, 2 city winners..8% city winners

    Based on percentages of city wins, i'd be sowing the balls back into Flying Peg

    Probably missing something again. What is a full book?? 100 serves or 150 serves?????


    :-??
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,687 posts
    Flying Pegasus stock didn't enjoy the best of reputations with some Trainers. He threw just three stakes winners out of 379 live foals, his fertility was not fabulous at just 83.5% over his career. I honestly think that many Trainers gave his stock ample opportunity and they proved fairly ordinary. Many of them were purchased for considerable prices off the back of his one good horse, King Saul.

    Now I understand you have one that you are having some fun with, but you are in the minority for this Stallion. He is best retired, as he was not much more than a money burner for a lot of people involved in him as stallion shareholders. Not that that is anyone's fault, it's just one of the pitfalls of Stallions. They can't all be champions.
  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    Agree with all of that Damien..but i was just highlighting that if you are working off statistical data....he was a lot better proposition than Demerit is

    The Rising did okay to with 7 wins out of 12 starts.

    Over 5 seasons Flying Peg had about 590 serves (last 2 seasons not included) @64%
    Over 4 seasons Demerit has about 280 serves for 169 foals @ 60%

    So Demerit who has produced 1 stakes race win, is still better than Flying Peg that has produced 5 stakes race wins???

    You highlight FP's fertility rate as not fabulous, but it is 4% better than Demerits which you are sprouting on about!?!??! I really get confused by this sort of discussion.

    Demerit is an okay stallion for WA mares. But he hasn't produced too many champions and it doesn't appear there are many coming through. You want a bread and butter horse, then he is one of many in WA to choose from. You want to get a winner, then Dash for Cash and Bradbury's Luck are a lot better value for money than he is and have already proven to be serious stakes race winning producers.

    To me talking up Demerit is like talking up Awesome Rock....Nothing to base the gum flapping, chest thumping on.
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,687 posts
    Your percentage numbers are a bit off. Demerit, according to the Studbook, is at 93% over four seasons which is 10% better than Flying Pegasus was over his career. Both track at the same return rate for stakes winners at this point in time. FP has also only had three stakes winners, for a total of five wins.

    In respect to Awesome Rock, on race performance alone he is second in this State only to Blackfriars. He is both the highest rated and with $2M in earnings, the highest earner of Fastnet Rock to go to Stud anywhere this year in Australia. Being a son of Fastnet Rock is a huge plus as he is fast becoming a breed shaping stallion on a global basis. If he wasn't standing in WA he would easily be a $20,000 fee elsewhere based on his record.

    How many so highly rated Stallions have retired to Stud here in WA ? Not many I would venture.

    Now going to him as is much a risk as any other Stallion, but if you have a non Danehill line mare ( at least four generations free on the sireline) he is the outstanding selection in WA and it's not even close I'm afraid.

    Have more respect for your hard earned money.
  • paraleticparaletic    3,750 posts
    Anyone gone to Im All The Talk? Speedy horse, interested to see what he produces moving fwd. 
  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    I used the same figures you did - live foals - then you go and start quoting Fertility Percent?!?!!?

    Demerits fertility percent is very good at 93%, but that only highlights even more, the gap between fertility percent and live foals!!!

    It's of little concern, but i still don't see Demerit as anything more than a bread and butter sire for WA.

    A lot of mares are heading east this year..fully encouraged by RWWA, to the detriment of the WA breeding and Horse industry in general. I still find it bizarre, that the biggest financier of the industry is encouraging people not to participate in WA bred and raised foals!!!! thought Westspeed was meant to do that, but now it has turned full circle and is encouraging you to do the exact opposite!!!!!.
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,687 posts
    Well to that extent it would be interesting to see if the addition of the Platinum Westspeed for local standing Stallions will have any real effect. Firstly they must win races, and like I have said for a few years, beating Bob Peters with his band of Hunter Valley broodmares is almost impossible.

    You did win against the Pierro last week in it's debut, but I think you won't do it too many times more as it looked very green in running and perhaps not the best positioning.

    That was one factor in purchasing a Demerit at the most recent Winter Sale. To try and grab some of that Platinum money. I didn't buy in February as we couldn't come to an agreement on a passed in Lot, but that also was an Eastern States bred yearling, and it was fair to say that my client was not enthusiastic in regard to purchasing, rather he wanted to continue to downsize. We have however retained in partnership with a couple of Studs, a Blackfriars weanling out of a Denman mare and a Demerit due in October, out of a Snitzel mare. So that will further lessen the need to purchase going forward.
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,687 posts
    Another Stallion I'm looking forward to seeing his stock is Safeguard. As a type I thought he would be a prolific sire of two year old's. I hope a few make it into the February Sale from farms that have good reputations in preparing yearlings for the market.
  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    I dont think it will Damien, the Westspeed bonus has wandered down the path it has taken and the encouragement to buy better quality mares and send them east is too enticing, to then take a chance on some of stallions standing here. This year it has gone full circle, with extra mares being sent east that had originally been bought from the east coast in foal, then bought over to boost our stocks and are now heading back to be served on the east coast due to the generous Westspeed enticement from doing so.

    The industry is close to a cottage industry in WA now, once you go past the top 2 or 3 sires. There are some new ones that may work their way in to the top 2 or 3 sire spots, but the volume of breeders is so small that they'll just be moving the deck chairs around,rather than adding to the overall breeding industry.

    Westspeed should have always been to encourage the horses to be bred here, so that the farriers, feed stockists, vets, staff, and allsupportign industry had a source of income while they were growing.

    Now all you do is buy a mare, send her to a good sire over the east coast. Leave it there until they are 18 -24 months old, and bring it over here to race......And get FULL Westspeed access for doing nothing for the WA industry. So why done we all join in i hear you ask??? Because the majority of owners don't have that sort of money to put up at the start. And the way the structure and support is established for the top end of town. The small breeders will never have that money. As the opportunity to get "lucky" diminishes every season... And if any of them do get lucky - like we may have with our little filly - then all they will be doing is hoping to somehow or other pick up 2-300k to replace the investments that they have already made..With no chance to collect 5-600k to allow them to get in front.

    On our little bit of luck the other day, it was our best chance to beat a couple of really nice horses, before they got to their distances. The same this week, with a few nice local bred horses. But once we go past a few lucky weeks of fixturing in the dead of winter - yes it is all the lower quality horses in lower quality races - we are stuffed. Pack our horses away for 6 months and come back for 2 months of lucky runs starting in July next year..

    So we keep the dream alive, but we know that we cant breed or afford to buy horses that are Saturday competitve, when so many of hte big owners are picking up so much of the Westspeed due to being able to afford to milk it to the max, at the expense of local breeders.

    And Demerit, Flying Peg, and a large host of other WA past and present standing sires, will not change that 1 iota. IN fact it is in the best interests of the studs for it to not do that, cos then they will have paupers like ourselves winning enough money so that we can also join in the band of east coast breeders, pretending to be local breeders and miking Westspeed.

    Anyway, i have waffled on in every direction i can think of....A flash back to a few years back when i wrote a novel every time i posted on here......haha

    Good luck with your Demerit. Heading to Popeys will only increase the chances of getting a result. he has assembled a great team in Pinnie and they are all really invested in his success. Great young bloke.

    Winsumlosesum likes this post.

  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    As you have said - the better mares go East.
    Hence the WA stallions aren't going to get the same results, but not because they aren't any good - because they don't get the (as good as) mares.

    RIO likes this post.

  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    exactly an if they didn't get Westspeed for going east, i think the number that went east would be significantly reduced...However RWWA are in too deep to change that system now....But that stops the strugglers from having a reasonable chance of earning any Westspeed dollars!!!
  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    edited July 2017
    On average half the winners every Saturday are by local stallions.
    Plenty for everyone - as you proved yourself Rio
    (Congratulations ;)

    RIO likes this post.

  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    Thanks Tivers......We tried to breed a midweek competitive runner, and the local stallion done that for us...Now to hope when she finishes racing we can breed her up with whatever stallions are here at the time.
    yeah i know those figures, But about 3/4 of the animals racing in WA are locally bred and on a good Saturday 50% of winners are from local stallions.
    I'm not going to look but i'd suggest a few of them are from imported mares. And in the years ahead the Saturday winners figures are going to be even more skewered to east coast stallions and east coast mares, due to the significant carrot called Westspeed being dangled in front of those with the money who can afford to go east for stallions or mares.

    I reckon breeders who bred from a locally raced/bred mare, to a local stallion, and raised it here in WA should get FREE admission to the WESTSPEED program and be paid a 50% payment of the scheme...so that if they do jag a performer they get some bonus money to help them pay for the full scheme with any subsequent ones they breed from the local mare with a local stallion.

    I actually think it is too late to save it from becoming a cottage industry, but if there is any chance of keeping a WA breeding industry, we have to encourage the horses to be bred and raised here...or we will lose the skills, facilities and people required to raise the young horses.

    Don't fear, i've talked to the powers to be and they think I'm a wack job too, so I'm just wasting screen space as nothing will change......hahaha... I need to get a job, so the brain gets full of work stuff again!!!

    Ngawyni, silky, kam likes this post.

  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    Again weighting that all on the stallions though.
    You don't think the 50% winners coming from 25% of the stock aren't from considerably better mares ?
    Put those same mares to WA stallions and what would happen ?

    WestSpeed - perhaps payments just need to be weighted more to stallions than just mares.
    Already addressing that, but could perhaps go further.

    Ngawyni, silky likes this post.

  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    yeah i do see that and i do see the focus on the sires...but we will never be able to afford really good sires in WA, but we can afford good mares due to the number of returns the owner gets out of them.

    I say potato, you say potarto......The variation is slight, but a focus to reward those who leave their mares here, get served by local sires and raise the young here, is a better proposition for the total industry. Rewards associated with sires is once again focusing on local studs and could easily force the value of sire serves up again.

    PS....looks like an all up between our horses this weekend is the only way to get a punting return!!! Good luck

    Ngawyni, silky likes this post.

  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,687 posts
    edited July 2017
    Breeders themselves wanted to be able to supplement their drafts in sales with Eastern States sired stock, as they didn't believe in the local Stallions, so that condition was put into Westspeed. But it has overtaken the scheme so much so, that they have had to add an additional level called Platinum for local Stallions. This should have been the basis of Westspeed entirely, supporting those who were investing in Stallions, but it turned into a disaster for the local Industry.

    It's typical of the local breeding association, they are incredibly ineffective.

    If RWWA had any backbone, they would abandon the current scheme in two years time, allowing only those under the Maiden clause to claim a final bonus, and throw their weight behind a scheme that rewards Eastern States sired stock only to the level of a current Country stakes win, and local Stallions reduced to current Saturday win levels, but extend the returns to four year old's instead of just for two and three year old's.

    More and more Owners are prepared to not push stock early for two year old bonuses, but as a consequence they forego a season of potential bonuses when they put the best interests of the animal first by not racing early.

    This idea is probably too progressive for authorities and associations to run with. Of course they can do nothing and the present situation will continue and the local Industry will continue to flounder, sales will be sparsely attended and the standard of Stallion standing here for the most part will be a secondary level as there will continue to be no advantage in local investment in high quality bulls.
  • TheFunksterTheFunkster    3,840 posts
    edited August 2017
    paraletic said:

    Anyone gone to Im All The Talk? Speedy horse, interested to see what he produces moving fwd. 

    There's pics of one of Tom Percy's out of an average Due Sasso mare available on Mungrup's fb page. First foal from the mare, but well conformed
  • paraleticparaletic    3,750 posts
    i did see that on twitter, thanks Funk 
  • paraleticparaletic    3,750 posts
    3 or so months off from going to the breeding barn.Who's hot and who's not? anyone made any decisions yet?
  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    UR...works with our mare and continues to produce a variety of distance winners...Adding to mares nicely

    Winsumlosesum likes this post.

  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    With every month that goes by, more and more his path resembles that of his father......

  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    Tivers said:

    With every month that goes by, more and more his path resembles that of his father......




    yes Tivers....except his size...But that isn't important if they are winning, an winning over such varied distances... I said it briefly above, He is really appearing to be benefiting from some good (not sensational) mares being put under him, and adding just a bit more.
    At a good stud that continue to have a good roster of stallions and he is earning his place with them....

    Couldn't be happier for you. Just us well our 3 legged beaten up old has been didn't towel you up in those few listed races he jagged!!!!! haha
  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    He's the same size as his Dad, and his Granddad, and his Great Granddad
  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    Sorry mate...i wont tell you who i was thinking his dad was when i wrote that!!!!! haha
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,687 posts

    Another Stallion I'm looking forward to seeing his stock is Safeguard. As a type I thought he would be a prolific sire of two year old's. I hope a few make it into the February Sale from farms that have good reputations in preparing yearlings for the market.

    Your percentage numbers are a bit off. Demerit, according to the Studbook, is at 93% over four seasons which is 10% better than Flying Pegasus was over his career. Both track at the same return rate for stakes winners at this point in time. FP has also only had three stakes winners, for a total of five wins.

    In respect to Awesome Rock, on race performance alone he is second in this State only to Blackfriars. He is both the highest rated and with $2M in earnings, the highest earner of Fastnet Rock to go to Stud anywhere this year in Australia. Being a son of Fastnet Rock is a huge plus as he is fast becoming a breed shaping stallion on a global basis. If he wasn't standing in WA he would easily be a $20,000 fee elsewhere based on his record.

    How many so highly rated Stallions have retired to Stud here in WA ? Not many I would venture.

    Now going to him as is much a risk as any other Stallion, but if you have a non Danehill line mare ( at least four generations free on the sireline) he is the outstanding selection in WA and it's not even close I'm afraid.

    Have more respect for your hard earned money.

    I'm comfortable with this statement after two racing crops
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