Top Fluc and SPG betting in WAWest Australian Racing

TheDiva

for your information... these bet types are finished in WA for the meantime. 

the official pricing network APN is finishing up this Wednesday and at the moment, the rules of betting dont allow for any other pricing means to be used to determing Top Fluc or Starting Price Guarantee.... 

the default in the absence of the APN is  "middle tote", and im sure no one will want to take that option.

Therefore. for the short term, these bet types will not be available in WA. 

Probablydoesnt affect too many of the every day $20 punter, but certainly a lot of the bigger players bet Top Fluc into WA markets... so that money will dry up. 

Another nail in the coffin for WA oncourse bookies really. 

thefalcon

who is the architect, diva?

TheDiva

australia wide they have moved (or moving) away from APN. 

QLD, NSW, VIC and SA have signed up to dynamic odds, which is a cross section of all the corporate bookmakers. That is a disaster in itself as these states have basically handed over their pricing to the corporates.. giving them even more power than they had already. 

So now the states are not even going to determine their own prices Australia wide... we've handed it to the corporates on a platter. 

The wild fluctuations you see could be the norm! 

thefalcon

diva a mutual mate of ours told me that a pal of his had his bet reduced to 38 CENTS by 365. hard to fathom but still....having 38c on a horse... 8-}

brady

Sticks bets 38cents
Reg with 365
Ha ha ha

thefalcon

that's what i term a very conservative gambler.... :-B

hash

thefalcon said:

diva a mutual mate of ours told me that a pal of his had his bet reduced to 38 CENTS by 365. hard to fathom but still....having 38c on a horse... 8-}

there's only one option if your betting that small... TAKE A MULTI  :D

Thumper

Is this something that has to be resolved with Legislation or is it something that RGL or RWWA could easily resolve by also signing up to a provider such as dynamic odds?

In my opinion this is actually a win for punters that bet Top Fluc or SPG so long as WA doesn't drag out the changeover. Not many on course flucs or SP's are as competitive as the corporates top flucs or starting prices these days. Especially mid week and provincial meetings where on course markets have lost all relevance really.

Thumper

I had a look at Race 8 from Belmont Saturday and compared the official SP against the starting price on the fixed WA TAB (copied from William Hill one of the least competitive bookies out there).

Every horse bar 1 runner was a better SP with the WA TAB compared to the official SP. The other runner was the same price. I know it's only 1 race but I'm almost certain the results would be similar across the board.

Jell

thefalcon said:

diva a mutual mate of ours told me that a pal of his had his bet reduced to 38 CENTS by 365. hard to fathom but still....having 38c on a horse... 8-}

I've been through 3 accounts with Bet$3.65.

All 3 I've closed since they limited me to anywhere between 10c-50c

They were going to let me on for a massive 90c at one stage :-O

Could quite easily quit my job and live off their Greyhound opening prices if I have a unlimited account for good.

Rodent

In my experience, it went $0.50 max then $0.38 max then 0. You can still get a decent collect for 38% of a big quaddy  :D

Rodent

I thought I'd check out what's happening in Bet $3.65 land. I only bet on WA gallops but apparently I'm limited to winning $50 on soccer, $200 on golf, $0 on greyhounds, $0 on trots, $0 on Qld gallops.

 I can't take quaddies for any amount on any racing. The thing is, they will bet me to lose $1000 on win bets on NSW and Vic racing. I assume that's a regulatory requirement. I wish WA had that requirement.

Jell

Yeah I'll give them that, they do adhere to NSW and VIC minimum bet rules.

But in saying that those markets are brought into line with all other bookies on the day of the race since I think the requirement kicks in from 9am. You won't find any juicy odds from them at NSW and VIC anymore unless you're lucky enough to get on early.

TheDiva

Thumper said:

Is this something that has to be resolved with Legislation or is it something that RGL or RWWA could easily resolve by also signing up to a provider such as dynamic odds?

In my opinion this is actually a win for punters that bet Top Fluc or SPG so long as WA doesn't drag out the changeover. Not many on course flucs or SP's are as competitive as the corporates top flucs or starting prices these days. Especially mid week and provincial meetings where on course markets have lost all relevance really.

A short sighted view, but not unexpected. Its about losing control of our own product and prices and handing to the already powerful corporates.
When the local bookies become irrelevant, which they will be now....see how you go trying to get a decent bet on?
At this point in time, WA has no solution and it will be some time coming.

Thumper

Diva, a couple questions for you.

Why does WA have no solution? Can't we just amend the rules of betting to state what means will be used to determine TF and SP be it dynamic odds or by other means. I would have thought this was a bigger issue than who's prices are going to be used.

Why do you believe that local bookmakers should own the top fluc and starting price? Is it really going to make much difference if corporate bookmaker prices are used as long as you can still offer those bet types. Most of the wild fluctuations we see in corporate markets occur in the early markets not in the 20 minutes before jump. At that point they pretty much move in line with what is happening on course anyway. Top fluc price is only taken from the last 20 minutes of betting isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong.

This will have no affect on my punting as I don't use these products anyway. I don't understand why a punter would make an investment not knowing what the return is going to be. Each to their own though.

TheDiva

In order:

WA has known that the APN would be stopping, since late last year. They have been negotiating with Dynamic Odds but are not happy with the deal. 

Given RWWA do not bet top fluc or SPG... basically they couldnt give a RATS **** if there is no price feed. They probably dont thing it affects them. But overall, it WILL reduce the spend on WA racing... 

APN did very suddenly, pull the service last week... but everyone has known about it for some time....that is for certain. 

Again it comes down to RWWA being the regulator of the industry, BUIT also the major player/competitor in the industry. it just DOESNT WORK!

I do believe that local bookmakers or at least WA bookmakers should produce the official prices. Its WA product and we should not farm out our intellectual property to mostly offshore interests. Thats just my view and its a biased one....I'll agree with you there. Punters like the corporates early markets because most times they are WRONG, which gives you your value. I agree with that too, but i still believe the local bookies have more accurate markets than the corporates. I would personally not bet top fluc to clients any more, based on the wild fluctuations that happen on dynamic odds. They still do fluctuate wildy during betting time and the big issue is that many of them are linked to each other... so if the price goes off on one board, it goes off on 5 other boards and it can be a fake plunge. BIG ISSUE with that. 

I think I posted before, it wont affect many punters... but I would say 30-40% of my saturday hold is big bets at top fluc. This hold will disappear overnight as now the local ring does not control the fluc and bookies are likely to bet into our local market to try and control the fluc. I dont know who it is that bets top fluc, but trust me, the money is generally smart. I personally dont bet top fluc either, but i do have other clients that cannot afford to be watching markets all day saturday and they will pick their race and either bet fixed or top fluc, depending on what they think will occur in that market. 

Finally.... re "cant they just change the rules of betting".... have you ever worked with a government department or worked for one? If you have, then you already know the answer to that question... 

bookielover

I was contacted by a Queensland bookie not long ago.

He told me that the bookies at all Queensland tracks are putting up the QOP, the Queensland Official Prices, which, like the VOP, and the soon to join Sydney, Adelaide and W.A, are, as you said Diva, taken from the prices supplied by the Corporates.

This bookie, however, totally ignores those prices and bets his own prices so that he ranges between 108 and 115% as against the usual closing market at Doomben or Eagle Farm which is between 122 and 128% based on those QOP prices.

He said doing his own thing, meant that he held more money than many of the other bookies did.

Why not bet your own prices, and offer Top fluc based on those prices. Your clients can check the top fluc on the Punta website as each race progresses. We do have access to the prices you are betting on course, both through your website and the best bookies site.

Frankly, I can't see what the issue is, provided you are prepared, like my mate in Brissy, to ignore the WOP, and bet your own prices.

You won't be taking a huge risk. Betting at 110-115%, you will be up to 10% below that being bet by the Corps, with plenty of margin left.

I know you can't eat margin, and you need to lay horses so that you can at least make some sort of a book, but at least you should have the opportunity, to lay more horses at your lower percentage than you would betting the WOP.

TheDiva

the majority of this hold is not from my clients but from betbacks. 

those clients, bet top fluc. as such, the bookie who lays them wants to bet back top fluc.

betting my own prices wont fix that problem. As of opening markets on Saturday, local bookies DO bet their own prices... 

the point is... the official pricing (formerly APN) is the price disseminated to racetracks all over Australia. punters dont want to look up 6 different websites. This feed will no longer be disseminated to the rest of the country... so what will that do to turnover? 

Thumper

Cheers for the insight Diva. The support bookmakers receive in this state is very off putting to any wanna be bookies. When was the last time there was any new blood in the WA bookies ring?

I use 2 websites to monitor markets. Best Bookies to monitor on course bookies and odds.com.au to monitor corporates. My turnover will be unaffected.

Thumper

https://thewest.com.au/sport/horse-racing/hunter-takes-plunge-back-to-bookies-ring-ng-b88495211z

thefalcon

interesting addition to the ranks of bookmakers..... :-?

Fastmoney

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/oncourse-bookmakers-stop-offering-topend-service-because-of-fluctuation-change-20170607-gwmgg6.html.

TheDiva

Replacement of Australian Prices Network “Official Price” in Western Australia

In August 2016, Racing Victoria (RV) announced a new method for the collection and dissemination of the Victorian Official Price (VOP) with effect from 1 September 2016.

The VOP incorporates the official price fluctuations for thoroughbred races in Victoria and is assessed from a spread of prices being offered by Wagering Service Providers (WSP).

The VOP represents the best price available at any one time from six WSPs and replaced the previous process provided through the Australian Prices Network (APN) which assessed prices from on-course bookmakers exclusively.

Since that time other States have also migrated from the APN method to similar methods for the determination of the “Official Price”.

RWWA was advised by APN on 25 May 2017 that “further to a review of the Business, the decision has been made for APN to close and cease to provide services effective as of 31 May 2017, i.e. the last date of services provided will be 30 May 2017”.

As a result of this withdrawal of service there was an impact on wagering customers and on-course bookmakers that offered “Top Fluc” and “Starting Price Guarantee”.

Accordingly in order to support the operations of on-course bookmakers and provide continuity of service to punters, (including reciprocal pricing information from other jurisdictions) RWWA was required to find an alternative to the APN.

After consideration of available alternatives, commerciality and the desire for national consistency, it was, with the support of the Western Australian Bookmakers Association (WABA) determined to similarly introduce the “WA Official Price” (WOP) based on the same method of assessed spread of prices being offered by WSP’s.

Relevant rule amendments to the RWWA Rules of Wagering in order to re-establish an official price within those rules that enables “Top Fluc” & “Starting Price Guarantee” wagers is being progressed through the Department of Racing, Gaming and Liquor.

The costs of establishing and providing for this service are being met fully by RWWA as part of its commitment to supporting the Western Australian racing industry, wagering and the race day experience of patrons and customers of race clubs.

RWWA and Perth Racing will be progressing to install this service for on-course patrons as soon as possible as part of the commitments to on-course patrons.

Media Contact:

Rodent

Did the WOP start yesterday? If so, it looks like the WOP beat the tote on 6 of the 8 races.

TheDiva

It's official and feeds have started but still can't use the prices for top fluc or spg till they change the rules of betting

Thumper

What's the latest with the change to the rules of betting?

Where are the WOP flucs published?

TheDiva

they are official now... you'll find the flucs on most corporate websites are the WOP.

we get them on course from the ABA (australian bookies association).