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Harness & Greyhounds

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  • savethegamesavethegame    1,696 posts
    Champion N.Z, Mare Stella Frost,who won the inters-----had a n,z cup taken off her, she had won by lengths she was disqualified causing interference in the run.

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  • JayJayJayJay    5,512 posts

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,184 posts
    Yeah i was just going through the form - and putting my bets on tonight at Geelong Bathurst and then Redcliffe - and i was about to post that Im Batman is in the last at Redcliffe tonight at $1.55 - 2.8k prizemoney to the winner 

    Ididnt think it was super impressive last start ( the drive was excellent though ) and if there was something half decent in tonights race - id back it to beat it - but there simply isnt 

    Plenty have  complained about the WA handicapping system - but the 8 and 9 horses  have had about 10 starts for a couple of placings and 2k in stake - yet IM Batman has got 110k and 13 wins and 27 placings - but there in the same race 
  • MoonrakerMoonraker    46 posts
    I dont know the facts but i am guessing Batman is getting into these low NR races because he has been uncompetitive and his rating has dropped since HWOE systen has come in.

    ie if NR had have come in in WA instead, his NR would have started higher than it is now and wouldnt have dropped down so far as would have been more competitive. Therefore this isnt really a example of the NR system giving horses a free ride.

    Again, i havent crunched the numbers, but just my gut feeling.

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  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,645 posts
    edited February 19
    Moonraker said:

    I dont know the facts but i am guessing Batman is getting into these low NR races because he has been uncompetitive and his rating has dropped since HWOE systen has come in.


    ie if NR had have come in in WA instead, his NR would have started higher than it is now and wouldnt have dropped down so far as would have been more competitive. Therefore this isnt really a example of the NR system giving horses a free ride.

    Again, i havent crunched the numbers, but just my gut feeling.
    Correct @Moonraker ......this is an anomaly that has developed whilst the two systems run in conjunction with each other...and will continue to do so as long as that situation exists. The inability to drop down in HWOE maintains horses non competitive ranking here ...and in turn accelerates the cascade down the ratings in the NR system.

  • BetonmeBetonme    151 posts
    It does highlight the opportunity to move on a good horse on its mark in WA.
    I think if WA had claiming races, a few would get poached.

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,184 posts
    I see in todays WEST Australian - a reasonable size ad - caught my eye - Pinjarra Harness Racing Club want a Racing Manager 

    All you would need to do on your application - a 2 line resume ( with no references ) - " Im an ex media hack - and im from the Eastern States " 

    Theyd immediately email you back and say - mate youve got the job 
  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    147 posts
    Moonraker said:

    I dont know the facts but i am guessing Batman is getting into these low NR races because he has been uncompetitive and his rating has dropped since HWOE systen has come in.


    ie if NR had have come in in WA instead, his NR would have started higher than it is now and wouldnt have dropped down so far as would have been more competitive. Therefore this isnt really a example of the NR system giving horses a free ride.

    Again, i havent crunched the numbers, but just my gut feeling.
    Incorrect his NR would have started the same as all horses were transitioned that are currently registered to race in Australia 
    he may have however found more competitive races if the ratings system was implemented in WA as his points dropped but the anomaly was caused by racing in metro staked races and dropping 2 points for unplaced efforts all due to the matrix implemented allowing it to happen they have slowed the effect for horses rated under 70 points they now only drop 1 point the horses 71 to 120 points still drop 2 points in metro staked races for unplaced efforts 
  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    147 posts

    Moonraker said:

    I dont know the facts but i am guessing Batman is getting into these low NR races because he has been uncompetitive and his rating has dropped since HWOE systen has come in.


    ie if NR had have come in in WA instead, his NR would have started higher than it is now and wouldnt have dropped down so far as would have been more competitive. Therefore this isnt really a example of the NR system giving horses a free ride.

    Again, i havent crunched the numbers, but just my gut feeling.
    Correct @Moonraker ......this is an anomaly that has developed whilst the two systems run in conjunction with each other...and will continue to do so as long as that situation exists. The inability to drop down in HWOE maintains horses non competitive ranking here ...and in turn accelerates the cascade down the ratings in the NR system.

    HWOE cant drop but a lot of horses with good form in the HWOE races are still able to beat up on those trying to earn a quid in the Level races programmed meant for horses struggling to find form in HWOE races as I pointed out with the race recently at GP where they ran home in 26.6 over the long trip yes leader got beat by the one on its back but the remainder of the field was 20mtrs back 
    The other avenue is the drop back rule which is now over 5 starts not 10 that allows horses to drop in class if haven't earned certain amount over last 5 if you won 5 in a row before that it wouldn't matter (its like there are infact 3 types of handicapping systems being run CRS NR and Level Racing and none of them are right yet)
  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    147 posts
    Betonme said:

    It does highlight the opportunity to move on a good horse on its mark in WA.
    I think if WA had claiming races, a few would get poached.

    I have asked for some claiming races to be programmed in some of my emails to GT,waiting on a reply need to stimulate the market in WA for horses for sale ,wouldn't mind a couple more myself and currently eastern states is the only market realistic prices 2-5k
  • savethegamesavethegame    1,696 posts
    But I imagine once they realise  its a unfair advantage and contributes to more odds-on favourites, under N.R.. something will be put in place, probably each individual horse ,will be re -assessed  once they cross the border.--- Just my take
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,184 posts
    Full marks to Queensland Harness Racing - re their replays 

    I had some bets at Redcliffe yesterday - actually i also had bets at Melton Bendigo ( probably the best and fairest track in Australia ) and Penrith - i dont watch the races live - once all the meetings have finished -i watch all the replays in one hit 

    With Redcliffe - with the replays - they have got a clock on the top right corner - so it is timing the race as it progresses - it will give as it occurs - the lead time - then Qtr 1 Qtr2  Qtr3 Qtr4 - that is excellent information 

    When ive had a decent big bet - when i watch the replay - i would allways turn the volume down - not bagging race callers - but if ive got big money at stake - i just want to concentrate on the race - i dont want to hear nothing - and these QLD replays give me as the race is being run - the vital information i want to know - the qtr sectionals 

    Well done Qld Harness Racing

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  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,645 posts
    edited February 21
    Agree there Marko....sectionals and vision showing how the horses are actually coping with them in running are a big indicator to punters going forward. The replays at Redcliffe in particular are very good...side on head on... slow mo finish..different angles & camera positions in running....pan in and out ....excellent camera work in general

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  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    147 posts

    But I imagine once they realise  its a unfair advantage and contributes to more odds-on favourites, under N.R.. something will be put in place, probably each individual horse ,will be re -assessed  once they cross the border.--- Just my take

    adjustments they have made to the matrix will stop them dropping into lower class as quick as batman did IMO even the 70 - 120 range should only drop 1 point but they have left it as 2 for unplaced for them ,it might bottle up the mid range ,time will tell 
    consistent horses don't drop points they float within a level I said to the old man we should do what batman did he said nanananananahh 

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  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    147 posts

    But I imagine once they realise  its a unfair advantage and contributes to more odds-on favourites, under N.R.. something will be put in place, probably each individual horse ,will be re -assessed  once they cross the border.--- Just my take

    adjustments they have made to the matrix will stop them dropping into lower class as quick as batman did IMO even the 70 - 120 range should only drop 1 point but they have left it as 2 for unplaced for them ,it might bottle up the mid range ,time will tell 
    consistent horses don't drop points they float within a level I said to the old man we should do what batman did he said nanananananahh 
    also if in the same race a horse rated 68 finishing 7th dropping 1 point horse rated 115 finishing 6th dropping 2 points not sure if that's a fair deal or just favouring the higher class 
  • savethegamesavethegame    1,696 posts
    Having a Barney with the old-man, trying to get to the gold coast (haha) few more snooze you lose runs required.
  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    147 posts

    Having a Barney with the old-man, trying to get to the gold coast (haha) few more snooze you lose runs required.

    yeah not going to happen hes too consistent initial rating 65 current rating 63 after 17 starts since Transition 

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  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    147 posts
    edited February 21
    Tanaka Eagle would be a good eastern states prospect with a NR of 33  271-23-21-22 last season earnings $43,190.00 take him east he would do very well 
    Brookies Jet could be another prospect NR42 ,Talker Up NR30
  • getthechangegetthechange    131 posts

    re Im Batman

    He was a C4 M1 at transition in Nov 2018 and took the lower of the transition table and his actual HWOE if the system had been in place from when he commenced racing

    He transitioned at $35,942

    wins since then under HWOE

    Feb 2019 - GPC - HWOE LT $25k using also eligible clause - HWOE became $41,386 (level 10)

    Mar 2019 - GPC - HWOE LT $40k using concession driver - HWOE became $46,830 (level 10)

    July 2019 - Pin - HWOE Lt $40k using also eligible clause - HWOE became $51,314 (level 10)

    Oct 2019 - GPC -  L5$ LT $12k - HWOE became $57,703 (level 11)

    52 starts for 2018/2019 season all under HWOE system for $35,822 in stake money  incurred $15,372 penalty for his three wins in the season - no penalty for placings - average per start for season $689

    24 starts for $15,975 under HWOE this season for win at GPC in October - HWOE became $57,703 - ave per start this season $665

    his last 10 WA starts have resulted in a 2nd and 3rd at Pin and a 3rd and three 4ths at GPM with his mile rates of 1:54.5 - 1:54.1 - 1:53.9 - 1:56.2 and beaten between 4m and 10m in those runs

    If he had the same numerical form and earnings under MCR with drop backs after 10 starts without winning he would now be a M1 C2 - Just Barney probably a C1

    in WA the lesser horses are protected and Im Batman cant beat up on the low grade horses in HWOE races but he can drop back in L5$ LT races and can also drop back to a degree in HWOE races if his $ last five starts falls below $2250

    Having different handicapping systems isn't ideal and contributes to the anomalies but the drop back points in the NR are too high - the attachment is a list of the horses Im Batman has  beaten at his last two starts and shows that you don't have to have raced in WA to have low points - winners of 10 ,10 and 15 races now have 39 - 39 and 43 points after having 52 and 53 in May.

    from what has been posted here the changes to the matrix still has horses from 71-120 dropping back two points for 6th to last - if that is the case the horse could be the same level after three runs if they are receiving 6 points for a win and minus two points for 6th to last.

    Agree with Aussie that two points just favours the higher class - think a maximum of one minus point and a limit to how far you can drop from your highest point could be considered instead of the current freefall

    eg-  horse can only drop 20% from their maximum and no horse can drop below 50  - if they have reached 120 then the lowest the horse can drop to is 96

    if they have reached a 100 then the lowest they can drop is 80

    if they have reached 60 they can`t drop to 48 they can only drop to 50

    consider

    no drop back points for horses 50 or below

    start all horses at 40 with 2yos receiving 30% of the points

     


    docx
    docx
    Batman.docx
    15K
  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    147 posts

    re Im Batman

    He was a C4 M1 at transition in Nov 2018 and took the lower of the transition table and his actual HWOE if the system had been in place from when he commenced racing

    He transitioned at $35,942

    wins since then under HWOE

    Feb 2019 - GPC - HWOE LT $25k using also eligible clause - HWOE became $41,386 (level 10)

    Mar 2019 - GPC - HWOE LT $40k using concession driver - HWOE became $46,830 (level 10)

    July 2019 - Pin - HWOE Lt $40k using also eligible clause - HWOE became $51,314 (level 10)

    Oct 2019 - GPC -  L5$ LT $12k - HWOE became $57,703 (level 11)

    52 starts for 2018/2019 season all under HWOE system for $35,822 in stake money  incurred $15,372 penalty for his three wins in the season - no penalty for placings - average per start for season $689

    24 starts for $15,975 under HWOE this season for win at GPC in October - HWOE became $57,703 - ave per start this season $665

    his last 10 WA starts have resulted in a 2nd and 3rd at Pin and a 3rd and three 4ths at GPM with his mile rates of 1:54.5 - 1:54.1 - 1:53.9 - 1:56.2 and beaten between 4m and 10m in those runs

    If he had the same numerical form and earnings under MCR with drop backs after 10 starts without winning he would now be a M1 C2 - Just Barney probably a C1

    in WA the lesser horses are protected and Im Batman cant beat up on the low grade horses in HWOE races but he can drop back in L5$ LT races and can also drop back to a degree in HWOE races if his $ last five starts falls below $2250

    Having different handicapping systems isn't ideal and contributes to the anomalies but the drop back points in the NR are too high - the attachment is a list of the horses Im Batman has  beaten at his last two starts and shows that you don't have to have raced in WA to have low points - winners of 10 ,10 and 15 races now have 39 - 39 and 43 points after having 52 and 53 in May.

    from what has been posted here the changes to the matrix still has horses from 71-120 dropping back two points for 6th to last - if that is the case the horse could be the same level after three runs if they are receiving 6 points for a win and minus two points for 6th to last.

    Agree with Aussie that two points just favours the higher class - think a maximum of one minus point and a limit to how far you can drop from your highest point could be considered instead of the current freefall

    eg-  horse can only drop 20% from their maximum and no horse can drop below 50  - if they have reached 120 then the lowest the horse can drop to is 96

    if they have reached a 100 then the lowest they can drop is 80

    if they have reached 60 they can`t drop to 48 they can only drop to 50

    consider

    no drop back points for horses 50 or below

    start all horses at 40 with 2yos receiving 30% of the points

     


    good to see you agree with me for once ,one day those designing these systems might listen by then a lot of horses careers will be over ,it will all be too late and some of us might not continue on 
    Just Barney think he might be a C2 but that's irrelevant 
    Level Races are not formatted right they don't work too many with form in HWOE races can enter them they are like the drop back rule but in 5 starts instead of 10 how is that better ?

  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    1,856 posts
    I usually restrain from criticising race callers but Albany Race 7 was an unmitigated disaster.

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  • JayJayJayJay    5,512 posts
    Yes, and for which he apologised profusely. I was listening in on the drive home and I also couldn't work out what was going on between Athabascan and Lombo Louganis. He got flustered and that was that, but airline crashes and mass murders are unmitigated disasters!!!!!!

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  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    1,856 posts
    I am pleased that he did apologise as I was only watching on Sky. It was quite ironic that he gave the judge a burst for not ringing the bell on the previous race not realising his mike was on.

    In the scheme of things I stick by my statement regarding a shocking callcall in a seven horse field.

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,184 posts
    What mistakes did he make in the call - i bought a good 2nd hand computer recently - very happy with it - but i need to buy a set of speakers - ive got no volume at the moment 

    I did watch race 6 on Sky - the  bell issue was irrelevant - what was relevant was we only got half a screen - because of some pathetic upcoming dog race in Great Britain 
  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    1,856 posts
    Marko, Craig called Athabascan and Lombo Louganis in the wrong positions from the start. He had Athabascan in the breeze and Lombo one/one when it was the other way around. When Lombo started to drop out and Athabascan swept to the lead off the back straight he became completely flustered and struggled to regain his composure making no mention of the error in the run.

    Fortunately for me I was on Athabascan so the easy victory was a pleasant surprise.

    I would imagine this would have received more coverage if Richie or either of the two Matts had made a similar error.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,184 posts
    When it comes to Harness Racing callers - and im talking Aust wide - theres Ritchie - then there is daylight to the rest of them 

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,184 posts
    Normally have got zero interest in Menangle - but tonight there are heats of the NSW Oaks - and the Chariots of Fire final  - which is a great race 

    In the Chariots - looking at the replays - i have had something e/w on the no (2) Max Delight- its last run was incredible - i just think it will lead - and both McCarthy drives the 1 and 2 - if they lead - they will hold the lead - they wont be handing up 
  • savethegamesavethegame    1,696 posts
    edited February 22
    Most pubs have no sound, only vision Friday nights away from there designated betting areas, find the blue pants are sometimes very helpful, So that race was only   Athabsacan (,j,Young) Guns with cows. e.suvaljko

    Food for thought as the same eight drivers drive at least 40%of the winners at g.p. and we are trying to claw back some punters, at each season end, ranking---

     Why don't we issue driving pants, using the dog code  1 red 2 brown  3 grey  4 blue 5 yellow 6 green 7 black 8 pink.the number in relation to finishing position on premiership,as selling point.,once punters realize, hall is red, lewis, brown, etc. that's what attracts punters to the dogs no sound required. Only needed to be displayed by the pubs from the tab, who's who.Very few pubs have sound.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,184 posts
    Interesting at Broken Hill tonight - got a non tabber meeting 

    5 races - 6 horse fields in each race -different trainers etc - but the 5 races have got the same 6 drivers in each race - never seen that before - and one of the drivers has made the trek from Mildura - Luke Watson 
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