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Drop of mare numbers

Breeding
MinesACoronaMinesACorona    148 posts
Looking at the Australian studbook stats in recent years there is a significant drop on mares being bred within WA.

Why aren't breeders in WA breeding in WA?

Comments

  • RIORIO    14,124 posts
    Because Westspeed encourages them to breed out of the state where the quality stallions are
  • MinesACoronaMinesACorona    148 posts
    RIO said:

    Because Westspeed encourages them to breed out of the state where the quality stallions are


    what would you change
    or would you make changes to the westspeed?
  • RIORIO    14,124 posts
    It is tough when the change has been driven by returns on investment. That sounds so dumb when written. But we have got to this position due to several good mares being sent to good stallions and getting good returns on their investment.

    Then the main breeders started to update their mares to better quality mares, and sending them east to better stallions.

    This process lead to the breeders buying better mares and leaving them on the east coast to breed from, then bring the offspring over here as yearlings.

    All of these activities were rewarded with better quality horses getting a bigger slice of the Westspeed kitty.

    All the above is my opinion of the past decade.

    So your question..........I'm unsure what we do. But now that we have proven that good mares to good stallions get great returns, do we want to change anything??? More and more well bred WA horses are being sold or moved east and still performing well.......I'm pretty sure that is what the breeders wanted to happen. And they are the ones who have shaped the Westspeed model of benefits for winners. Didn't answer the question did i????

    The better horses are good for the breeders to get a return, and that needed to happen, otherwise we would have lost our breeding industry altogether. So i think it is too hard and too detrimental to our overall industry to shut that down. The fragmented aspect of WA breeders of Mum and Dad breeders have been lost. Those with 1 or 2 Broodies, due to even if they get a good local bred horse, it struggles to compete on a Saturday and win as easily as it used to. Still didnt answer did i??? hahaha

    Okay here goes.
    How about RWWA gives free entry to Westspeed bonus's for locally bred horses. Ones where they use a local stallion to a mare that is stabled in WA and foaled in WA. BUT they only get a half of the normal payout, unless they have paid the full entry cost to Westspeed of course.
    RWWA limits the payout of Westspeed to any one horse at $100k - If the horse is winning that often it is getting a big return already and may be TOO GOOD for WA and could be encouraged to go east.

    So yes. I'd make changes to Westspeed. I'm still unsure the above would generate enough change. But it will be interesting to hear the ideas of others.

  • TiversTivers    7,207 posts
    WA breeders breeding in part east are still WA Breeders no ?
    And they’re producing stock which supports our racing (and gaming) industry.
    No WestSpeed, no breeding, no horses, no racing.
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,032 posts
    The whole idea of breeding to Interstate Stallions and still being eligible for Westspeed, was to supplement drafts at yearling sales so that vendors had points of interest with varied offerings. In other words, your entire draft wasn't just one or your own Stallion's offerings that season. Some vendors went completely overboard with an entire draft of Interstate bred horses, but the real offenders are those who breed Interstate and not even offer those yearlings for sale at all at any sale. That was not the intended spirit of this scheme.

    But RWWA won't do anything about it, and you can bet that WATBA won't either because they are a toothless organisation with a dwindling membership. Magic Millions like any seller, like variety in their catalogues so they won't make a sound, and nothing will change.

    The Platinum scheme was put in to placate those like me who opposed what Westsped had become, but without the abolition of the former, there will never be a true incentive for a syndicate to purchase a truly heavy hitting race performer that was bred to be a Stallion. We will forever be condemned to accepting second rate Stallions that simply can't get a gig in the East or those that have failed to meet the expectations of a fickle marketplace in the sales ring or worse those that have under performed with their stock on the race track.

    It's just a scheme that underlines Western Australia as the dumping ground of the nation in has been's or never was Stallions.
  • RIORIO    14,124 posts
    Tivers said:

    WA breeders breeding in part east are still WA Breeders no ?

    Wasn't the question Tivers. Yes they are WA breeders. The question was why aren't they breeding in WA?? and then - What can be done to change that?
  • TiversTivers    7,207 posts
    Because as I’ve said previously - you can’t breed just in WA every season as there isn’t sufficient variety in horses to facilitate improving the herd.
    We’re an island.
    For each mare there may be say 6 suitable options on pedigree, half that when you consider a match on type, and you’ve got 2 or 3 options per mare.
    Soon become a herd of inbred mules if you don’t add variety, which is to no ones benefit.
  • RIORIO    14,124 posts
    So they are not breeding in WA because you end up with a lot of inbred donkeys.....Okay got that one out of the way.

    The other question was directed at me mainly,but I'm sure you've got an answer for it as well...

    What can be done to change it??

    I'm not taking the **** either big fella, and its not solely directed towards you either. But i'd be keen to know if anyone has got a potential alternative that would have more bred in WA. I personally cant see how we can keep more breeding in WA.
  • TiversTivers    7,207 posts
    Only thing that can be done to change that is at least double the size of the industry here.
    That won’t happen so best we can do is alternate the mares around - east for a couple, back here for a couple etc.
    Also then the filly’s from those e/s covers can go to our WA bulls.
    Using my example above - Mum is down to an option of say 3 stallions - daughter may be down to one or none (ie can’t go to her dad, or another local of same sire line etc).
  • RIORIO    14,124 posts
    Yep..totally agree. And as bad as it was 5 years ago it will only become more obvious, NOW due to the small number of WA breeders.

    Maybe a subsidy for WA bred and sired mares - that have gained Metro wins - to be sent east to be served?
    That way allowing the smaller breeders to get into adding value to their good mares without the full cost of doing so.

  • silkysilky    269 posts
    I agree that Westspeed isn't really doing what it was intended to do which was to encourage investment in the local breeding industry through the distribution of bonus prize money.

    A few things I'd change would be to get rid of the current levels of participation. Why are the bonus' so high for Saturday races?  Id like the bonus' to be spread more across the board. Also those mares bred to Eastern states stallions to pay double the entry fee to help subsidise the scheme. As an added incentive for those investing solely in WA breeding, run all age races restricted to those horses bred from WA mares and Stallions.

    I don't have the figures so I can only speculate about changes to bonus levels but what about having  only 1 level such as 2.5k breeder, 5k standard and 10k platinum(get rid of extra) and make nominated horses of all ages eligible for the scheme(should get more entries) and pay out the bonus' on all wins throughout its career no matter what the distance.
     
    If westspeed was mostly limited to horse's bred, born and reared here, would it not give some of the bigger players more confidence to source the right stallion/s to come to WA.

    RIO likes this post.

  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,032 posts
    I have heard a whisper that mare numbers might be bouncing back this year off the back of a strong Magic Millions February Sale.
  • RIORIO    14,124 posts
    I think today's auction provided the best insight to the future of WA Breeding
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,032 posts
    Went there to assist in selling three and ended up buying one that I just happen to see walking past one that someone had asked me to have a look at.

    I was disappointed in how the racehorses at the end of the day were not that well met by the market and we just gave the first two away in real terms.

    I don't think today was a damning statement on the WA Breeding Industry, more it was a reflection on what was being offered.


  • TiversTivers    7,207 posts
    ?
    I thought it was the strongest edition of that sale I’ve seen in years.
    The upturn / recovery continues...

    MinesACorona likes this post.

  • RIORIO    14,124 posts
    edited June 2018
    I dont disagree with either of you.

    The gap between our best and our fodder was on display. Well done with UR Tivers. I'm really happy for you guys and the other owners that he is performing so well. About one of the best performing stallions for the WA market and hobby/small breeder.

    EDIT and yes i was deliberately being vague, so as to see what sort of responses i got.
  • TiversTivers    7,207 posts
    Could be talking about different sections of the sale too.
    I was only looking at mares.
    Historically would have picked up a few, but couldn't get near them yesterday........... $$,$$$
  • JoekJoek    19 posts
    As a small breeder I would say it's the lack of sales. We have had to race our foals due to not getting them in the only sale in WA.
    As sole owners it costs a lot of money to race 4 horses with 3 in training and one spelling. Some others just euthanase them if they don't sell them due to costs. Prior to that there are the stallion fees, the agistment costs at the stallions (2 months) the foaling down and vet costs, feeding costs, supplementary feed costs, farrier costs, agistment if you don't have your own property, entry fees to sales, commissions, floating costs, preparing for sales costs, bonus scheme costs, halter training, branding, microchiping etc.
    How do we fix it? Subsidise where possible, different sales than just the MM sales, insemination rather than stallion visits.....
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,032 posts
    Artificial Insemination will never be acceptable in thoroughbred breeding, there is far too much at stake with Stallion ownership to allow 20,000 Snitzels to be bred next year. It would signal the collapse of an entire Industry.

    I do feel your pain on the other items listed. The World is no longer a place for Ma and Pa breeders. The model that seemingly runs now is to have your own stallion serving 50 mares and float a few occasionally to other leading stallions just to add some variety to your sales inventory. Where it seems to bite you in the ass is when you have seen so many from one Stallion, a sales house like Magic Millions, doesn't want to have a WA yearling sale dominated by just one bull when you open the latest offerings. It doesn't matter if at the actual sale buyers only want to bid for that one stallions stock, but you just can't have the whole book full, as not everyone shares the same opinion on which Stallion is the chosen one.

    As far as having more sales options in WA, what David Housten is doing now by condensing the sale into one premium day plus another day offering a book of 300 yearlings in total, is the best result in attracting buyers from around the country to come to Perth. Diluting the offering by having additional yearling sales would only weaken our brand. I think there is more that can be done in the Winter Sale that was held last week, as there was too much rubbish on offer.

    A couple of suggestions for future yearlings you want to take to the market, even for Studs that have success, how about you proactively campaign by ringing Agents who regularly buy good quality yearlings. I suggest this because in conversation with a long established buyers agent, he like me, didn't get a single call from any breeder or farm this year asking us to come and have a look at a particular draft or yearling. I visited a lot off my own back, and was welcomed everywhere I went, but if not for doing that I would not have seen most of the stock that I would eventually bid for in the ring. Further to that, why don't WA Farms have strong engaging social media platforms that costs nothing, showing stock, announcing matings, prior family success, open days, stallion days prior to breeding seasons etc etc. Its not really that hard but you have to sell it. You have to take it to the marketplace, Magic Millions is just the final destination in the process, not the solution to the real problem.
  • JoekJoek    19 posts
    edited June 2018
    Damien, good opinions from you.
    Where would I find the details of 'agents'?
    What's your email address and I will invite you to our small holding and you can see my two weanlings that will be going up for sale. By the way, my horse that got passed in at $18k at the MM sales won yesterday, Kelly's Callisto.

    RIO, jum, TheFunkster likes this post.

  • RIORIO    14,124 posts
    Hey @Joek i have a 3yr old that MM rejected from their sales that has won 2 and 4 seconds for about $80k in stakes...but had an unfashionable sire, so couldn't even get it listed.....so your above comments struck a bell wit my own situation.

    Congrats on yesterday performance.

    Oh and the rejection by MM has not changed my mind to go to popular stallions. I still use stallions that i feel will add to the mare..but just accept that i will be on struggle street until the next few come through and are hopefully as successful as the first one...

    Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,032 posts
    Joek said:

    Damien, good opinions from you.
    Where would I find the details of 'agents'?
    What's your email address and I will invite you to our small holding and you can see my two weanlings that will be going up for sale. By the way, my horse that got passed in at $18k at the MM sales won yesterday, Kelly's Callisto.



    My email is damien.wyer.racing@bigpond.com

    for listings of those paid up as members of the bloodstock agents association, go to http://www.bloodstockagents.com.au/our-members/


    If your two weanlings are going to the marketplace I imagine in February as yearlings, can I ask that you get in touch with me in November ? I'm trying to book in to have my second knee replaced in September and if that goes ahead I won't be mobile for a couple of months. Please feel free to email photos and breedings etc if you have any. We are always looking for the next good horse.
  • TiversTivers    7,207 posts
    Joek said:

    Damien, good opinions from you.
    Where would I find the details of 'agents'?
    What's your email address and I will invite you to our small holding and you can see my two weanlings that will be going up for sale. By the way, my horse that got passed in at $18k at the MM sales won yesterday, Kelly's Callisto.

    Bet you're glad you didn't sell it now..............

    Manchild likes this post.

  • ManchildManchild    157 posts
    Bring on A I ,I say , why should we not be able to do it ? Don't the standard breds have A I ?
  • RIORIO    14,124 posts
    Manchild said:

    Bring on A I ,I say , why should we not be able to do it ? Don't the standard breds have A I ?

     

    dont liek the idea at all...but maybe once every 10 years they allow a season of AI around the world
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