G'day Punter!

In this Discussion

Who's Online

3 Members & 7 Non Members

Arsenic over threshold

West Australian Racing
TheDivaTheDiva    11,326 posts
edited August 2018 West Australian Racing

MEDIA RELEASE 

Thoroughbred Stewards
Inquiry 

Trainer Mr Lindsey Smith  

 

RWWA Stewards
today conducted an inquiry into reports received from the ChemCentre in Perth,
that arsenic in excess of the threshold value being 0.30 mg/L in urine, had
been detected in the urine samples taken from the following horses after
competing in and winning the races as detailed below:

·        
GREAT AGAIN –
Race 6, Northam Race Club 4 June 2018

·        
MR MOTOWN –
Race 6, Belmont 9 June 2018

Evidence was taken from RWWA
Veterinarian Dr. J Medd, RWWA Senior Investigator, Mr G. Johnson, ChemCentre
Analyst Ms. M Raghvani and the trainer Mr. L Smith.

Mr L. Smith was subsequently
charged with two offences under the provisions ARR 178, which states:

·        
Subject to AR.177C, when any
horse that has been brought to a racecourse for the purpose of engaging in a
race and a prohibited substance is detected in any sample taken from it prior
to or following its running in any race, the trainer and any other person who
was in charge of such horse at any relevant time may be penalised.

·        
The
particulars being that he brought GREAT AGAIN and MR MOWTOWN to start in the
above races with the prohibited substance arsenic being detected in the urine
samples taken from both horses following their respective races.   

·        
Mr Smith
pleaded not guilty to both charges and the inquiry was adjourned to a time and
date to be fixed to allow stewards to consider the evidence and his submissions
in defence of the charges.

Comments

  • TheDivaTheDiva    11,326 posts
    In fairness... lots of Arsenic positives since its been p*ssing down

    MEDIA RELEASE 

    Thoroughbred & Harness – Arsenic Detections

     

    RWWA Stewards
    have been advised by the ChemCentre in Perth, that arsenic in excess of the
    threshold of 0.3mg/L permitted within the Rules of Racing has been detected in
    the following:

    ·        
    KASEY JOHN
    (Harness Trainer Mr. Michael Brennan) after it competed in and won Race 1
    at Gloucester Park on 29 June 2018

    ·        
    DIPLOMAT
    EXPRESS (Thoroughbred Trainer Mr. Dennis Barker) after it competed in and
    won Race 7 at Belmont on 20 June 2018

    ·        
    RED TAIL
    (Harness Trainer Mr. Hayden Reeves) after it competed in and won Race 2 at
    Bunbury on 16 June 2018

    These findings have been
    verified by Racing Analytical Services Ltd (Vic) (RASL).

    Additional analysis of these
    samples by RASL to assist in assessing the possible sources of the arsenic is
    being conducted. Once the results of this analysis is known stewards will
    determine the appropriate course of action.

    In view of the recent spate of similar arsenic
    detections, stewards are currently undertaking considerations and
    investigations which may delay the resolution of some of the current
    outstanding matters.

  • TheDivaTheDiva    11,326 posts

    THOROUGHBRED STEWARDS INQUIRY MR. LOU LUCIANI

     THOROUGHBRED

    RWWA Stewards today conducted an inquiry into a report received from the ChemCentre in Perth, that arsenic in excess of the threshold value being 0.30 mg/L in urine, had been detected in the urine sample taken from MURRAY THE BULLDOG after it competed in and won Race 7 at Pinjarra on 3 June 2018.


    Evidence was taken from RWWA Veterinarian Dr. Judith Medd, Stewards Compliance Officer Ms. Freya Bennett, ChemCentre Analyst Ms. Kelly Wilson and the trainer Mr. Lou Luciani.


    Mr. Luciani was charged under the provisions of ARR178, which states;

    • Subject to AR 178 G, when any horse that has been brought to a racecourse for the purpose of engaging in a race and a prohibited substance is detected in any sample taken from it prior to or following its running in any race, the trainer and any other person who was in charge of such horse at any relevant time may be penalised.

    The particulars of the charge being that as the trainer of MURRAY THE BULLDOG he brought that gelding to compete in the above race with the prohibited substance arsenic being detected in the post-race urine sample taken from it. 
    Mr. Luciani pleaded not guilty to the charge and stewards have now adjourned the inquiry to consider the matter further.

  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    6,941 posts
    Is it too hard to make this rule cut and dry, that is, if the horse is over then whoever is in charge (as it states) it's a penalty. There is so much speculation and so many loopholes that it would be an actual surprise if someone got charged.

    The fences argument will come out again. Either change the threshold or ban the fences, seems simple to me. But I'm not a horse trainer that has paddocks lined with these performance enhancing poles, so what's the solution?

    RIO, GaryH likes this post.

  • GLAMOURGLAMOUR    366 posts
    Is this not the same thing as a few years back relwting to the horse Dust me off where this time i think he was paid out the winners stake then had race taken off him.i think it was the samem circumstances arsenic where the trainer said it came from the fence posts,this inquiry went on for ages.
  • TheDivaTheDiva    11,326 posts
    I think the stewards put out a warning about the fence poles stating that it was the trainers responsibility. Steele Casey got off due to him being relatively inexperienced from memory. 

    This from June:

    THOROUGHBRED STEWARDS INQUIRY TRAINER MR STEELE CASEY

     THOROUGHBRED

    RWWA Stewards have concluded an inquiry into reports received from the ChemCentre in Perth, that arsenic in excess of the threshold value being 0.30 mg/L in urine, had been detected in the urine samples taken from the following horses after competing in and winning the races indicated:

    • SEASIDE SERENADE – Ascot Race 5,  11 April 2018
    • AVIDUS – Bunbury Race 7, 21 March 2018
    • SEASIDE SERENADE – Bunbury Race 6, 25 March 2018

     

    Evidence was taken from RWWA Veterinarian Dr. J Medd, RWWA Compliance Officer Mrs. F. Bennett, ChemCentre Analyst Ms. K. Wilson and the trainer Mr. Steele Casey. That evidence included analysis of various products, water and wood samples taken from Mr Steele’s training premises.

    Mr Casey pleaded guilty to three charges under the provisions of ARR178 for bringing the horses in question to race with the prohibited substance being detected in the samples taken.

    The rule in question is one of absolute liability which, once the presence of a prohibited substance is found, matters concerning the reasons for its presence were more relevant to penalty.

    There was no evidence before the inquiry that Mr Casey used or possessed any products containing significant levels of arsenic. The analysis of samples taken from the property confirmed the presence of arsenic at a level of significance only in the wood sample. The levels detected in the horses being in the range of 0.52mg/L to 0.78mg/L.

    Dr. Medd, referring to a study by Melbourne University faculty of Veterinary and Agricultural Sciences which examined the ingestion of wood shavings containing arsenic and the elevated levels achieved, advised such levels were not inconsistent with that seen in the samples taken from the horses in question. Stewards therefore could not exclude to the requisite standard that the level of arsenic detected in Mr Casey’s horses’ urine was not the result of the horses consuming fencing at the property.

    Mr Casey indicated that he was not aware of the various warnings issued by the Stewards to trainers as published in Racing Ahead and on the RWWA website, with respect to arsenic and the need to conduct environmental audits of their facilities to ensure they eliminate access of racehorses to Chromated Copper Arsenate (CCA) treated pine timber products which present a risk of elevated arsenic levels in race day samples.

    It is expected that all trainers make reasonable efforts to keep abreast of industry warnings, such as those issued with respect to arsenic that are widely published and available. Ignorance to such notices which leads or contributes to offences under the rules is not acceptable and may lead to penalties being issued for any breaches that arise.

    In view of his youth and short time that he has held a Permit to train, in addition to his cooperation and immediate plea of guilt and steps taken since, the Stewards determined not to impose a penalty against Mr Casey for the breaches of ARR178 at this time in the circumstances.

    Acting under the provisions of Rule 177 all horses were disqualified from the races in question and the Stewards directed that the placings be amended accordingly with commensurate implications for all stake money.

    Stewards again warn all trainers to take steps to eliminate access of their racehorses to CCA treated pine timber products or any other products that may present a similar risk of an elevated arsenic level in any race day sample. Failure to take adequate steps to guard against such exposures may lead to penalties being imposed if the presentation of horses with arsenic levels in excess of the threshold arise.

    H-BOMBER, RIO likes this post.

  • GLAMOURGLAMOUR    366 posts
    GLAMOUR said:

    Is this not the same thing as a few years back relwting to the horse Dust me off where this time i think he was paid out the winners stake then had race taken off him.i think it was the samem circumstances arsenic where the trainer said it came from the fence posts,this inquiry went on for ages.


  • jumjum    2,467 posts
    Diplomat Express and Seaside Seranade both winning today :-j
  • RIORIO    13,914 posts
    You dont waste you good posts on anything that hasnt got talent!!!!! haha

    jum likes this post.

  • runyonrunyon    521 posts

    Have any arsenic positives been detected in non-winners that have had random pre-race blood samples taken or do all the positives come from horses that won.

  • NoseyNosey    19 posts
    Elevated arsenic levels are only being found in urine samples that are taken from winners 
    post-race. No pre-race samples (blood) are returning elevated levels.
    Apparently this is because of a new way cobalt is tested for; it is super-sensitive for arsenic.
    Arsenic is not a performance-enhancing substance, even at 100 times the levels the recent spate of positives had returned.
    Arsenic can be found in the soil and water around the base of pine fencing, so horses don't even need to chew the actual fences to risk returning an elevated level.
    Common sense would suggest trainers demand blood swabs be taken from their winners, rather than urine, until the arsenic threshold is raised.

    runyon likes this post.

  • TheDivaTheDiva    11,326 posts
    edited August 2018
    its the old cobalt argument... is it even performance enhancing? 
  • NoseyNosey    19 posts
    No.
    Arsenic "may" increase appetite and improve cost condition at much higher doses, which is why it is still available in injectable form from most feed stores.
    At extremely high doses, there is poor evidence that arsenic might improve cardiac output, but the level required to achieve this would be toxic to the horse.
    Does arsenic make a horse run faster or for longer? No.
  • NoseyNosey    19 posts
    *coat condition 
  • GoddGodd    114 posts
    It allows the horse to eat more and better, giving the horse more energy and power in races
    Nosey said:

    No.
    Arsenic "may" increase appetite and improve cost condition at much higher doses, which is why it is still available in injectable form from most feed stores.
    At extremely high doses, there is poor evidence that arsenic might improve cardiac output, but the level required to achieve this would be toxic to the horse.
    Does arsenic make a horse run faster or for longer? No.

  • GoddGodd    114 posts
    Why don’t the vets have a say then ? They have spent years learning about these things , and levels, amounts that horses “could” have in there system from eating pine post . Or if the levels are way above what it could be if they eat them . Then trainers are using gear
  • paraleticparaletic    3,052 posts
    I remember hearing on the radio once, someone from rwwa saying they know when a horse has been treated with the substance or if its been eating fencing posts. There is a discrepency in the reading.
  • GoddGodd    114 posts
    Ok good , so in this case, what’s the reading ?
    paraletic said:

    I remember hearing on the radio once, someone from rwwa saying they know when a horse has been treated with the substance or if its been eating fencing posts. There is a discrepency in the reading.


  • paraleticparaletic    3,052 posts
    I dont know what the exact readings were but im fairly sure all the tests show that these recent positives are all from post chewing. If i can find the actual radio interview i will post it on here
  • GaryHGaryH    988 posts
    Nosey said:

    No.
    Arsenic "may" increase appetite and improve cost condition at much higher doses, which is why it is still available in injectable form from most feed stores.
    At extremely high doses, there is poor evidence that arsenic might improve cardiac output, but the level required to achieve this would be toxic to the horse.
    Does arsenic make a horse run faster or for longer? No.
      You seem to be about the only source that i can find online that doesn't state arsenic is a stimulant @ low doses, and toxic at higher?  Maybe send RWWA the research papers your quoting from, and they'll remove it from the BANNED list?

      Until then, whether it comes from a post of a syringe, the trainer is responsible for not presenting a horse to the races with traces in its system.  It not like they haven't been warned about the risk.
  • RIORIO    13,914 posts
    There are alternatives to wooden poles, so once that excuse has been used, and once agreed that they are contributing to arsenic levels, no one should ever be able to use that excuse again
  • NoseyNosey    19 posts
    GaryH, arsenic IS a stimulant at low levels. An appetite stimulant.

    I don't need to show anybody anything. They already know.

    RWWA, along with Chief Veterinarian Dr Judith Medd, are currently petitioning the national governing body to increase the base threshold, as the levels these horses are returning are not even high enough to be considered "low level" in context of being a (appetite) stimulant. 

    The arsenic in pine poles is chromated copper arsenate. The arsenic in injectable arsenic is sodium arsanilate. They are different forms of arsenic, so swabs show where the arsenic is coming from.

    spinking, JayJay likes this post.

  • thefalconthefalcon    15,682 posts
    Nosey sounds he knows what he is talking about and his summation certainly seems valid.

    JayJay likes this post.

  • RightOakAuntRightOakAunt    36 posts
    Nosey said:

    GaryH, arsenic IS a stimulant at low levels. An appetite stimulant.

    I don't need to show anybody anything. They already know.

    RWWA, along with Chief Veterinarian Dr Judith Medd, are currently petitioning the national governing body to increase the base threshold, as the levels these horses are returning are not even high enough to be considered "low level" in context of being a (appetite) stimulant. 

    The arsenic in pine poles is chromated copper arsenate. The arsenic in injectable arsenic is sodium arsanilate. They are different forms of arsenic, so swabs show where the arsenic is coming from.

    Any reason why positives to arsenic are only turning up in the swabs of winners ??? Are there any different protocols in place for the random swab v the winners swab ??
  • spinkingspinking    1,955 posts
    When they pre race do they do blood and urine
  • spinkingspinking    1,955 posts
    Mosey is bang on the money

    JayJay likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    4,890 posts
    He is...except the active ingredient is either sodium arsenate or sodium arsenite .....one is a trivalent compound the other pentavalent which is only a slight difference in chemical terminology  .....sodium salts are highly soluble, copper chromium arsenate less so, thus in analysis, the source of the arsenic is identifiable.

    TheFunkster likes this post.

  • RIORIO    13,914 posts
    And there is even a more elongated way of explaining it.....but i dont have the energy...no-one should ever be able to use the post excuse as there are options

  • thefalconthefalcon    15,682 posts
    ^^ you may have a different attitude if one of your own copped a bit of arsenic, rio... [-X
  • TheFunksterTheFunkster    3,824 posts
    A lot of uninformed opinions here.
    We'll see what comes out of the matter in general (of numerous positives recently due to cobalt tests) being referred to Racing Australia by the WARTA at the suggestion of the Integrity Services unit of RWWA.
  • RIORIO    13,914 posts
    no falcon i wouldn't......dont have treated pine poles where there are racehorses...It is that simple..if you do and your horse comes back positive your gone

Sign In or Register to comment.