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New Handicapping System for the Trots

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  • freodockersfreodockers    201 posts
    "Avoid them by racing in a west bred race" ???
    Why should anyone have to avoid them at all ?
    This is the exact B.S. attitude that RWWA allowed to go on for too long and ultimately destroyed our breeding industry.

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  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,277 posts
    1. and this system moves the winners away from the losers so the lesser horses in each age group get the chance to earn and their owners get an earlier  return on their investment
    Huh ?
    eg Valbonne etc ........3 y/o + conditions ...ever since the HWOE landed the 3 y/o's have been belting the cover off the longtime aged losers in lower classes on a weekly basis and only getting penalised 75 % of what an aged loser would have received if it had won the same race. Ethical or logical ??? Those owners and trainers that have kept their average horses longest ( RWWA pleaded with the fraternity to race their 4 y/o + horses a couple of years ago because field sizes had become dire ) are having their faces slapped by this concessional 3 y/o  + condition. 
    2. Radio today "We don't believe in penalising horses for being placed"
    The HWOE system does exactly that if a horse is accepted to race twice in a short span and earns enough at its first engagement by being placed to exceed the L5 or L2 conditions of the second engagement....it is scratched and the first horse balloted in the subsequent race also misses a start.....so two horses and sets of connections are penalised in fact.
    3.My understanding is that all horses were treated as though they had raced under the new system - ie all horses took 25% of their win$  as a 2yo and 75% of their win$ as a 3yo forward allowing for caps which was added to their 4yo+ wins to give them a HWOE figure.  The lowest of that HWOE figure and the transition table figure became their starting figure

    Radio today " we couldn't transition horses that were bought under whilst the old system was in place and won big juvenile races across as FFall horses in the new system"
    No problem transitioning horses across as C class non maidens those who were purchased with that same system in place and jagged a single age group or R class race though. Hypocritical ???? There is a discrepancy of hundreds of thousands of dollars in some examples of this category and there is a lot of horses in the second category who would battle to get past CO company in their lifetime and are now denied access to the maiden category to race in as they would have done previously. Radio this morning " No-one is worse off " Demonstrably wrong and two different principles applied in the transition reckoning whilst claiming an even handed approach.
    4 "if Bond . Hall   Reed etc pay good money for NZ horses then that is their business " 

    "so far as numbers falling this hasn't happened just in the last 10 years it has been ongoing for 40 years despite all the non penalties that are supposed to make people breed and buy"

    "but of course if you have a west bred horse you have the option of trying to avoid them by racing in west bred race "

    RWWA has been in charge of harness racing policy since 2004. It is a significant period of time and during that time millions of dollars of WA sourced cash has flowed to NZ on a conveyor belt through the importation of horses.  That in itself gives strong indication of what future policy is required to arrest the financial and participatory slide of the industry here. The "catering for mediocrity" brigade need to have their ultimately constrictive self interest rebuffed by strong locally focused policy. That is RWWA's charter ....to encourage the local industry holistically not pander to a minority who exercise undue influence and heavily use the openness of the current system policy primarily for their own benefit. The Australian thoroughbred industry woke up to the myth of NZ breeding superiority decades ago and policy focused to encourage the local Australian product now ensures it has its own dominant supply of equine competitors. 

    5.  I also don't care which system is used but the old one wasn't working. if the new handicapping system proves to be less effective than the one being developed in the ES then that may be where we end up.

    You don't have to be Einstein to work out who will be disadvantaged and why if WA is an outlier in terms of uniformity of handicapping presentation to the fraternity and punters. At the end of the day even if the HWOE system tweeks into a simpler form it will still differ in its presentation to the rest of the harness jurisdictions in this country because they will adopt the HRA model. It doesn't take much difference to discourage punters .....some won't punt on overseas dog races simply because the rug colours and patterns differ from here.

    freodockers, JayJay likes this post.

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,277 posts
    edited February 12
    6. RBD vs PBD vs GPPBD ( Split RBD in fact ) vs No one cares who is in the field handicap assessment

    Please ....is this a joke ?

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  • freodockersfreodockers    201 posts
    PTT were not accepting new members up until approx two weeks ago is correct. Experienced the problem myself even had IT guy look at it. Must admit I had my suspicions given all that was going on.
  • JayJayJayJay    4,887 posts
    It seems to me that their are many similarities between the introduction of this new handicapping  model and  the ill fated  attempt to impose the now totally discredited Outcomes Based Education model on WA Schools some years back. The theory behind OBE from the experts had a seemingly solid theoretical basis but in practice, it was simply impossible to put into practice and was a nightmare. Opponents were made out to be ill informed, resistant to change, heads in the sand, whingers, sooks etc and their views were basically dismissed. Tweak after tweak was made, bandaids were applied and removed, reassurances were given, people were ridiculed ....until finally, the elastic band broke. Perhaps against the evidence, I remain hopeful that the  views of "on the ground" fraternity participants are taken into account in any decisions made moving forward. Having re-read the proposed HRA Ratings proposal that may be adopted as a national handicapping system, it seems to me to be a very viable and much more straight forward proposal for both participants and punters, and one that should be given immediate consideration as a fall back position.
    Finally, I think that in general, people have put forward respectful responses, trying to address the issues in what is an emotionally charged environment and I for one object most strongly to being categorised by some fringe dwellers as some sort of dim witted, pot stirring objectionist who couldn't run a cold bath.

    curmudgeon, freodockers likes this post.

  • getthechangegetthechange    49 posts

    re curmudgeon comments

    Agree that 2yos should take more than  25% and that the 3yos should take a full penalty - having said that taking 75% forward is in my opinion much better than having 3yos win numerous 2yo race and two 3yo races and being eligible for a C0 R0 - they are only stopped from racing in an R0 by the condition "restricted to non winners"

    I think Bill Delaney answered that and think he got a bit tongue tied with that answer - my guess is he was trying to say that Lord Lombo, Mighty Flying Thomas, CourageTells type horses that had won through to fast class or almost fast class and had dropped back to M1 or M2 couldn't be put back to fast class as it wouldn't be fair on connections if they had bought them as M1 horses - you would have to check with Bill as to if that was what he meant because his answer wasn't clear

    we all have opinions and fair to say we all think we are right and we are entitled to express them - clearly I am in favour of the new system and will continue to highlight what I see as baseless negative comments but at the same time I respect your right to express an opposing view

  • getthechangegetthechange    49 posts

    re g hall field sizes - starters after acceptances 

    9-2-18 Wagin - 9 races = 82 starters             8-2-19 Albany = 9 races = 83 starters

    9-2-18 - GPM - 10 races = 102                    8 -2 19 - GPM   = 10 races =  111

    10-2-18 - Bun -  8 races = 80                      9-2-19 - Bun - 8 races = 88 (2yo race not counted)

    11-2-18 Bridge - 7 races = 65                   10-2-19 - Collie - 7 races = 58

    12-2-18  Pin  - 8 races = 83                        11-2-19 - Pin - 8 races = 82 (2yo not counted)

    13-2-18 - GPC - 8 races = 76                     12-2-19 - GPC - 8 races = 86

    Total                                488                                                               508 ( 2yo not counted)

    8 races with less than 8 at acceptance                1 race with less than 8 at acceptance


    GPM 16-2-18 field sizes -             12-9-8-9-10-12-7-7-10-9 = 93

    GPM  15-2-19 field sizes              12-12-12-12-11-10-8-12-12-12 = 113

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  • JayJayJayJay    4,887 posts
    One can make stats tell any story you want them to tell and cherry picking supportive results can be misleading and can invalidate any argument. Why leave out 2 year old races....if there are only 5 acceptors, surely that in itself is relevant to the state of the industry.

    I could be equally invalid and equally misleading if I cherry picked the February 1st metro meeting at Gloucester Park which had only 1 (one) full field of 12. Four races had only 7 runners which meant pay 1,2 only on the tote and a probable adverse effect on turnover, there were 2 (two) 8 horse fields and a 9, a 10 and an 11. And this was a card that featured a number of 1730m races, which have undergone a recent policy change allowing 12 acceptors, thus providing a potential boost in the number of starters per meeting when 1730m races are programmed.

    I am afraid that this is the sort of narrow based siege mentality that sometimes gets thrown at anyone mounting any criticism of any part of the new model....it would be helpful if the whole story was told rather than selective snippets to support an argument. It is a bit like using  the Millview Sienna $90 win dividend to refute the accusation that it is still raining odds on favourites.
  • savethegamesavethegame    1,095 posts
    For the life of me can't see if rwwa are fair dinkum about westbred horses..............,Have mentioned previous that on friday at.g.p. every week outside your normal 2-3 yearold westbred races....There should be c2-c5 or what equates with( hwoe band) and the following week c5-c9, (hwoe band) for 25k.the winner would recieve 17,500k going forward your hwoe  would only increase by 4,375 or 25% or (c class in the old)....then to stop the same horse cleaning up you can only win two of those races in a season....Which in turn for people that have supported the westbred product through breeding , or yearling sale purchases or even obtained through someone moving a older horse on there will be a greater spread of decent  prizemoney .Plus the westbreds the ones that excelled as two-three year olds they would already have money in the bank,Have noticed over the years hally and bond are not allergic to westbreds ..hally had the trifecta  in  a g. slipper ..Bondy has breeding programs and has purchased w.a. yearlings, so this shoe fits all sizes, open to tweaking like all new systems...The spinoffs for w.a.across the board,..Anounce it before the upcoming yearling sales give w.a.product supporters a good injection.Trust me odds-on favourites won't be coming at yer,at the rate they are now.... in these type of races..
  • getthechangegetthechange    49 posts

    re cherrypicking

    left the two 2yo races out so that there were even race numbers as last time the numbers were up because RWWA are running more races  - add the 2yo races in if you want

    Feb 2nd 2018 = 9 races = 92 starters after acceptances - 9-8-12-9-10-10-12-12-10

    Feb 1st 2019 = 10 races = 89 starters after acceptances - 9-12-10-8-7-11-9-8-7-8

    Can only imagine what you would  be saying if this Friday was down 20 starters instead of up 20 starters

  • JayJayJayJay    4,887 posts
    86 horses went around on Feb 1st 2019 and there were 4 pay first and second only races.

    curmudgeon likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    201 posts
    Re field sizes posted above and figures may be 1 or 2 out as I don't have a spreadsheet.
    Aus bred starters 346
    NZ bred starters 125
    Aus winners less than $1.50 4
    NZ winners less than $1.50. 8
    Aus winners more than $1.50 27
    NZ winners more than $1.50. 16
    % Aus vs NZ horses 73 vs 26 %
    Winning ratio Aus bred 9 %
    Winning ratio NZ bred 19 %
    Just a snapshot but read it how you want.
    Just hope it's not considered baseless or negative.
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,277 posts
    edited February 14
    https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/articles/one-out-one-back-country-cups-and-handicapping/

    11.10 to 17 min on podcast. HRA Ratings handicapping system discussed.
    Interesting to note both Vic and NSW have commenced info seminars at various locations in each state.

    WA is in danger of missing the boat here I think.....this will be much to our detriment
  • freodockersfreodockers    201 posts
    "Mr Bell said the national change would move the trots closer to the gallops system, with horses having allocated ratings, which rise and fall in accordance with performances".

    Anything closer to the gallops system to attract new punters and make it easier for  them understand our system would be a bonus or even a smart move.

    curmudgeon, Betonme, TrackBias likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    1,095 posts
    If rwwa are backing there system the top 50 concerns vie video link should be addressed by rwwa and hra with industry participants voting on each point to see what system has the least flaws ....unless the boarder hoping makes a difference?.the fifty concerns should be submitted to people like Jay Jay curmudgeon Jeremey to table.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    978 posts
    Im not an owner or trainer - im an enthusiast and a punter - so i just look at the fields and assess it from their

    But race 4 at Albany is the worse handicapped race of all time - its 2683 metres too - which wont help the poor ones

    Youve got Art Tutor  gate 1 and Art Lover gate 6 - they are both decent horses - they have run at  GP on Friday nights in the past and they could pinch a weak race their

    Just A Legend its won the most races (7) and its got gate 3 . Mariyln Said - gate 4  a horse on the up - ran slicktime - won 3 of its last 5

    Now here  are the 2 i just cant understand - Penola Girl gate 8 - won 2 from 150 - and heres the biggest lemon of the lot Phi Phi Island - its had 5 starts for 1 win and 1 place - total stakes of 6k - and  they give it gate 9

    Like i say i dont have to worry about it -i just rate them and then bet

  • freodockersfreodockers    201 posts
    Listening to Charlotte Mills on racing radio this morning, you have to shake your head. From a PR perspective it was a train wreck for RWWA and for the pacing industry itself.
    Meeting with pacing consultative group owners,trainers,breeders and reinspersons (don't know what happened to BOTRA or maybe it was she just didn't know who they are) which meet regularly just not for the past nine months !!!!
    Reason for new model "don't fix what ain't broke". In other words the current state of the industry is broken.
    industry participants have been concerned for the past decade regarding the demise of the industry. Why hasn't somebody done something sooner ?
    Invest in land to increase income. Please is that a joke, the industry needs to be able to stand on its own two feet.
    Pacing is a product with a lot of challenges in regards to presentation to punters and the general public. Victoria and NSW seem to be doing ok.
    The way the discussion went the new "model" is the last attempt in WA by RWWA to get pacing back on an even keel.
    Sorry guys I believe it won't change anything except maybe make it worse. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Clasping at straws comes to mind for the new model. Maybe a standard approach and uniform with the rest of Australia may have been a better one.
    I keep saying it but they refuse to look at what they have been doing wrong for the past decade, instead they keep blaming the product itself.
    The only saviour we have is if the TAB is sold and RWWA is dismantled.

    JayJay, TrackBias likes this post.

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  • freodockersfreodockers    201 posts
    And as for the two puppets asking the questions.
    Can we get Leigh Sales to do the next interview then there might be some hard questions asked.
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,277 posts
    Would debate the merit of TAB sale with you @freodockers but other than that I am aligned closely with your train of thought.
  • freodockersfreodockers    201 posts
    I don't want it either but listening to the state of affairs yesterday I would say they are a lot worse than is being let on.
    Appears the next option will be stakes decreases, less meetings etc.
    It is like any business.
    Once it is mismanaged to a certain point, it is very hard to drag it back. I would say that is where it is at now.
    Sorry for appearing so negative but the reality is Pacing in WA is at its lowest point ever and getting worse and those that care about it most have absolutely no control over its future.
    The sale of the TAB will be the only choice we are left with to regain some control if it's not too late !!!

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  • getthechangegetthechange    49 posts

    re marko - penola girl - phi phi island

    looking at the noms both Penola Girl and Phi Phi Island had first preference to other races that didn't stand up which happened in the old system as well - Phi Phi Island was nommed for a HWOE LT $6,000 which was clearly his best option - Penola Girl was nommed for a west bred mares race that didn't hold up - line ball which would have been more suitable

    As you said Penola Girl has had  151 starts with 143 of those in the MCR system - her last win in the MCR system was in april 2013 - last season she had 27 starts for 1 placing and $3,500 in stakes

    This season she had 9 starts in the MCR system for three 3rds for $2150 in stakes

    Under the new system she as had 8 starts for 1 win and 3 placings  for $7,200 which is more than her last 36 starts

    Since winning she has been placed twice from four starts once in this race type and the other in a mares race so despite rising in class she has been competitive

    If you are saying there should be a pref draw then I partially agree - my preferred option for the pref draw would be Win$ Last two starts this level or higher.

    Think drawing wide for two starts after winning would be ok with most but where a horse rises a level he shouldn't be double handicapped

    Under that scenario only Marilyn Said would be drawn wide as Smart Fortune won a HWOE LT $6000 last start

    Markovina likes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    978 posts

    re marko - penola girl - phi phi island

    looking at the noms both Penola Girl and Phi Phi Island had first preference to other races that didn't stand up which happened in the old system as well - Phi Phi Island was nommed for a HWOE LT $6,000 which was clearly his best option - Penola Girl was nommed for a west bred mares race that didn't hold up - line ball which would have been more suitable

    As you said Penola Girl has had  151 starts with 143 of those in the MCR system - her last win in the MCR system was in april 2013 - last season she had 27 starts for 1 placing and $3,500 in stakes

    This season she had 9 starts in the MCR system for three 3rds for $2150 in stakes

    Under the new system she as had 8 starts for 1 win and 3 placings  for $7,200 which is more than her last 36 starts

    Since winning she has been placed twice from four starts once in this race type and the other in a mares race so despite rising in class she has been competitive

    If you are saying there should be a pref draw then I partially agree - my preferred option for the pref draw would be Win$ Last two starts this level or higher.

    Think drawing wide for two starts after winning would be ok with most but where a horse rises a level he shouldn't be double handicapped

    Under that scenario only Marilyn Said would be drawn wide as Smart Fortune won a HWOE LT $6000 last start

    Thanks for taking the time to explain that - appreciate it
  • getthechangegetthechange    49 posts

    no problem marko

    you have probably already worked these out but just in case you haven't

    Of the horses over $12,000

    Art Tutor has a novice driver concession

    Marilyn Said had a mares concession

    Justa Legend and Art Lover get in under the also eligible clause which allows a horse to drop one level if they have earnt in this case less than $2250

    Some have a problem with the also eligible clause but I quite like it albeit I think it is set a bit high - $2250 is about five 4ths and I think five 5ths which in this case would be about $1300 would be better

    Only my opinion and others have different opinions

    happy to attempt to answer any queries you have on the new system

  • savethegamesavethegame    1,095 posts
    Getthechange; you seem to be all over the. new system ideal opportunity for you the assistant manager position which is being advertised.. plus how much you know where does it sit with hra system in your opinion.

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  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    45 posts
    Save the Game Heard a new assistant handicapper has been found and should be announced next week or so

    Get the change your opinion race 5 Tuesday re transition into system of horses like dreadlock rockstar and the Barrier Draw of that race and in general your opinion of the 2 new barrier draw systems they have introduced being the GPPBD/HWOE and GPPBD/HWOE
  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    45 posts
    edited February 16

    Get the change your opinion race 5 GP Tuesday re transition into system of horses like dreadlock rockstar and the Barrier Draw of that race and in general your opinion of the 2 new barrier draw systems they have introduced being the GPPBD/HWOE and GPPBD/HWOE L2
  • freodockersfreodockers    201 posts
    Strongly rumour Courmudgeon has the role of new assistant handicapper ex kalgoorlie trainer (veteran) told me. :)) :))

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  • savethegamesavethegame    1,095 posts
    Pre-Requisite for assistant handicapper job every Monday you have to sing. at 8.00am. "WE SHAll NOT BE MOVED ". And "A WORLD OF OUR OWN"
    don't know whether curmudgeon knows the words to the seekers songs think he had the mullet happening same era.
  • ChandonChandon    14 posts

    Save the Game Heard a new assistant handicapper has been found and should be announced next week or so

    Get the change your opinion race 5 Tuesday re transition into system of horses like dreadlock rockstar and the Barrier Draw of that race and in general your opinion of the 2 new barrier draw systems they have introduced being the GPPBD/HWOE and GPPBD/HWOE

    About time they found a new one. The incumbents have NFI.
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,277 posts


    My first day at work as RWWA  assistant handicapper for all you smartarses 
    :D
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