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New Handicapping System for the Trots

Harness & Greyhounds

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  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    Here we go again....

    Ever since Melton lengthened their sprint lane to utilise the entire straight ( as it should have been from the outset ) there has been ZERO negative comment. 
    Pinjarra should do the same thing.....these half length sprint lanes just promote an awful cramped look and should be named FUNT lanes after the former English bowler whose name was neither one thing or the other.
    I have said this a thousand times before.....the longer the sprint lane the lesser the perceived advantage and the fairer the racing.
    Wagga today....No horse won from the sprint lane.....no horse made ground in the sprint lane.......the cheats lane chant was once again exposed as a brain dead myth.


    GP is one track that is in dire need of a full length sprint lane. How else do you expect to combat the perception and advantage generated by having 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 horses from any one stable in a race as has been happening for a long time at GP. You won't hear those stables calling for it though.......why is that ?

    freodockers likes this post.

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts

    Drove 800 mtr track with sprint lane on many occasions and found it actually opens the field up. Found it didn't worry horses coming from out wide as the driver adjusted to suit. Also benefited horses 3/4 back the pegs more than anything. On a smaller 800 mtr track brings another dimension into the race and doesn't automatically guarantee the horse behind the leader a win. It still has to be good enough.

    Now don't you go spreading reality around the place @freodockers ...... that will never do     :-\"
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    It amazes me curmudgeon, it's ok for horses behind the leader in the gallops to get runs along the straight but if a pacer is allowed its a cheat. Have never seen anyone whinge because a horse got a run up the inside at the gallops. Have seen plenty complain (cheats in chariots) when the horse they have backed goes to the line hard held and those that have actually driven in a race have to explain the drivers weren't cheating.

    curmudgeon likes this post.

  • IvorytrunkeyIvorytrunkey    6 posts
    A sprint lane at gp would change the way drivers go about it for sure,if your three deep with cover and travelling you have to go earlier to beat the horse that gets the lane which in turn opens the field up earlier giving everyone a crack at it.

    freodockers, curmudgeon, Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    As for multiple runners at GP. One in the breeze, one three wide and the other sitting back taking advantage of the short GP straight. There was a certain trainer that worked it out and took full advantage for many years. They called him a genius, I call it working together and tying up races.
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    As for multiple runners at GP. One in the breeze, one three wide and the other sitting back taking advantage of the short GP straight. There was a certain trainer that worked it out and took full advantage for many years. They called him a genius, I call it working together and tying up races. Just ask Dave Thompson.

    curmudgeon likes this post.

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts

    As for multiple runners at GP. One in the breeze, one three wide and the other sitting back taking advantage of the short GP straight. There was a certain trainer that worked it out and took full advantage for many years. They called him a genius, I call it working together and tying up races. Just ask Dave Thompson.

    None of this is the fault of opportunists @freodockers .....it sits squarely in the lap of the decision makers asleep at the wheel.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts

    Here we go again....

    Ever since Melton lengthened their sprint lane to utilise the entire straight ( as it should have been from the outset ) there has been ZERO negative comment. 
    Pinjarra should do the same thing.....these half length sprint lanes just promote an awful cramped look and should be named FUNT lanes after the former English bowler whose name was neither one thing or the other.
    I have said this a thousand times before.....the longer the sprint lane the lesser the perceived advantage and the fairer the racing.
    Wagga today....No horse won from the sprint lane.....no horse made ground in the sprint lane.......the cheats lane chant was once again exposed as a brain dead myth.


    GP is one track that is in dire need of a full length sprint lane. How else do you expect to combat the perception and advantage generated by having 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 horses from any one stable in a race as has been happening for a long time at GP. You won't hear those stables calling for it though.......why is that ?
    I agree that a sprint lane on a good track  ( alah Wagga ) is irrelevant - it just adds another dimension

    One thing i would like them to do at GP ( and they did try once before but to no avail )  but the 2100 metre start which is the majority of races - why cant they do somerthing about the start - i mean the number 1 has got a huge advantage at the start - ive never seen any other track with that advantage . At Wagga today ( 8 accross the front ) horses 5-8 were leading - there was none of this unbelievable bias to the horse drawn in gate 1

    Maybe make the races 2160 metres or something so horses drawn out wide have a realistic shot for the lead 

    Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    10,809 posts
    edited February 2019
    One thing can't stand at all is that cut away rail at the races. What a load of rot that is.
    Can understand the arguments and valid points for the trots, but it's still a no vote from me.

    The races totally 100% against the cutaway rail. Hoops just sitting back on roomy tracks waiting for it - even looks silly.
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,787 posts
    As harness racing is shrinking rapidly and we see stables with multiple runners sprint lanes are a must anything that throws up more variables.re tactics and gives punters hope because at the end of the day they drip feed the industry..plus pet hate of the uneducated punter is to see horse run 4th or 5th and the vision shows a driver with a full nelson going to the line plus harness is more a hobbyist sport the drivers that don't go around often and aren't good at it or confident to push out, and are only in the game because they can drive there own horses sprint lanes are a godsend believe me there Hundreds of those in country centres throughout aus.. Being on the fence behind leader or two back on fence doesn't mean you win but what it does do allow backmarkers to have two less horses trying to get off at any opportunity in the last 600 m. and force them wider especially last halfs in 56 going 14,28m/sec then think yankcarts are100/200mm wider than old carts the Incident of locked wheel s has dropped because drivers are giving each other another50/100mm.so the point iam making tracks that haven't got that radius and velodrome cambers look extra metres are an can be lost purely because of no sprint lanes trying to make ground of cause
    re to script if the drivers have to be following the right horse and takes them to the sprint lane more variables .think they are a no brainer big punters don't like them if the shepherd is in the breeze.

    curmudgeon likes this post.

  • jumjum    3,512 posts

    Answer: Wagin.

    Collie and Busselton 
    :-j \:D/ <:-P

    Ridersonthestorm33 likes this post.

  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    277 posts

    incorrect



    I might be wrong about rwwa employee but I reckon getthechange is rwwa affiliated as maybe a consultant as responses seem awfully familiar , I feel getthechange is here to try to swing a positive spin on the NBM ,to try to convince people that the NBM is ok which narrows the field down
    You know me I told you who I am ,are you brave enough to do the same ,Brave enough to let everyone know an architect of the system is in the room

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  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    10,809 posts
    Hey Jum haven't shut my eyes in fright since going on the Royal Show Ghost Train at about 7 years of age...but when they go into that first corner at Collie it's pretty scary!

    The drivers deserve every cent they get.

    jum likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,787 posts
    Aussie try the different cheese i catch him ...he doesn't have to pull the hood up..just help with fixing the concerns from posters and hopefully if someone comes up with good points he may pass them on

    aussiebattler likes this post.

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    From memory Marko the 2160 start was the preferred start for years but was altered because the advantage to the outside horses was deemed too great ??? Also part of the reasoning was that it was too testing on horses legs charging into the first bend at max speed and trying to hunt through and hold from underneath the wider runners??? I thought at the time that we had rules, stewards and drivers with reins in their hands but apparently I was wrong ???
    Also the mobile speed was problematic and contributory ?
    Just operating on memory here as the results page on harness.org is down. 

    Markovina likes this post.

  • Kane_26Kane_26    88 posts

    Hi Kane - I suggest you contact RWWA and speak to Bill Delaney as it would appear to be a mistake - cant see why he wouldn't  have transitioned at $27,500 max

    Thanks @getthechange, when bringing in a new system I wouldn't of thought I needed to question it as it would be 100% correct! Anyway there's no need for me to ring Bill as the horses in question are no longer with us.

    curmudgeon likes this post.

  • getthechangegetthechange    310 posts

    re curmudgeon - re horses 1-2-3

    eligibility for C0 races is - winners of 2yo races - winners of two 3yo races - winners of R penalty races that haven't won a C0 - C0 races are not non winners races - eg yarra valley wed race 2

    the MCR system has no race designated for non winners however for many years in WA we have been running conditioned R0 races ie R0 - restricted to non winners

    just as your horses are ineligible for the non winners R0 race under the MCR system they are also ineligible for a non winners race under the new system because they aren't non winners

    The new system doesn't have C0 races and there is no comparative level as it would depend on when a horse graduated from being C0 ie a horse winning a C0 at its first start would have graduated as $0 at the time of winning - a horse graduating from C0 that had won four country 2yo races and two 3yo races would have HWOE of approx. $11,000 at the time of winning

    who am I - will divulge later today

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Getthechange keep them guessing although it appears most don't agree with your opinion at least someone can explain this new system.
    Would rather your opinion on sprint lane at GP and why it has never been introduced or would RWWA consider it ???
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Can we run a book on who getthechange is before he divulges.
    Someone with many years experience in the handicapping system with a memory like an elephant.
    AP by any chance ?
  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    277 posts

    Can we run a book on who getthechange is before he divulges.
    Someone with many years experience in the handicapping system with a memory like an elephant.
    AP by any chance ?

    It would be a small field that would line up with the ability and knowledge
    CS is one that comes into the field with experience and NBM support
    It’s a pity rwwa didn’t have a Manager of Harness Racing to run extra education forums with actual results of how the NBM is tracking after 3 months in ,that is certainly long enough to gauge some results .More rumours come out or rwwa than actual facts lately ,there communication to the industry needs to improve still



    freodockers likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    I would suggest a field of ten off the front RBD on performance over past 12 months.
    A couple would draw barrier 1 or 2 on effort.
    The other 8 would have to somehow line up behind barrier ten.
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,787 posts
    Ill take 3s on the hitchhiker. and what's more very informative for the people in the industry would be interested with bill Delaney answer regards kane s horse was a mistake made. and what check process the system have other then a trainer doing a war like to knowthe % of trainers over 55 left trying to handle the computer age.with the jargon
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    I will have 2 shillings on Ray Holloway ....you never know....there have been rougher results  ;)
  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    277 posts
    Kane_26 said:

    @getthechange can you answer me this? The Marble Ridge is a C3 R3 but has a HWOE of $50,026.

    He's never won a M class event yet is on a higher HWOE then Dreadlock Rockstar who has won multiple metro events. How is that possible?

    I've retired him along with Buhn Lert as this new system has ruined there careers and earning capabilities. Unfortunately I have lost Buhn Lert's owners from the industry now as they see more upside in the thoroughbred industry but the maestros in charge don't care about that do they?

    The Marble Ridge has an incorrect HWOE  (is a C3R3 should have been HWOE$27,500) has not raced under the NBM is now deregistered 
    I brought this up with the manager of harness racing 9 days into the NBM I told him calculations of the HWOE are incorrect on many horses some by $1 some by thousands but The Marble Ridge is probably the best example of that that I have seen for it not to be corrected 3 Months in when they knew about the errors makes you wonder
    A- How many more errors are out there and will be out there with the Transition
    B- There needs to be a re-calculation of transition and its fairness it needs to be looked at 
    C-what is the Legal accountability of an industry body that runs a handicapping system with No rules available to the public,a handicapping system to premature and not thoroughly tested prior to implementation ,what compensation will there be for someone that retires a horse because of a flaw in the system only to find out 3 months later that may have been able to compete and continue its career longer 
    E- This is one of the reasons the NBM needs to cease immediately and be taken away and worked on ,tested more before it can ever be brought back .It shouldn't be allowed to run with so many flaws ,anomalies and loopholes 
    F- would be interesting to know how many horses have been retired/de-registered in the last 3 months and of those how many could have continued a career in the racing industry under the MCR system and if any of them had simular mistakes on transition 
    Maybe Getthechange has the answers 
     

    Kane_26 likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,787 posts
     10//1 bar one;;;;;;;;;;;;;10/1;;B.D. 25/1 B.H. 33/1 G.T. W.H.40/1 .G.C.66/1. M.R. 80/1 Curmudgeon you can have all the 100s you wont R.H.  If your lucky enough as K.S. Use  to say i pay around the back pal.
  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    277 posts
    G- I looked at horses with horses with a higher HWOE than they should have but is the reverse happening as well ,have horses transitioned lower that they should have ,you would need to go back to before 16 th November 2018 to look at what class they were at transition 
    Also horses were transitioned at 25% for 2yo 75% for 3yo of MCR Open Age races when calculating the transition where as in MCR they would have received a full MCR penalty for winning open aged races do they receive a full penalty for winning open aged races in the NBM
    Classic Winning 2yo that transitioned into the system as a C0 also got a concession on transition as max HWOE$12,500 


  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    No CM or didnt she make the field ?????
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,787 posts
    Freo. very scratchy in the prelminary taken out by order of  stewards bookmakers asked to rule a line, and no deductions will apply... plus stood down two trials. 

    freodockers likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,787 posts
    Vet Report;;;;; just in ear infections in both ears affecting gait;   

     Can now see why concerns have been falling on deaf ears, 7-10 days to clear up, with new a/  harness manager should be right going forward for complaints  you sooks.
  • getthechangegetthechange    310 posts

    re the marble ridge

    The Marble Ridge has been deregistered and  all horses that haven't raced under the new system and have been deregistered how their actual  HWOE figure not the transition figure 

    eg Boo Hoo deregistered C2 - shows as $23,310  being  C2 so would have transitioned as $22,500

    Re who am I - yes involved in the new handicapping system and confident it will work well.

    the decision to come on PTT was mine and mine alone and the opinions aren't propaganda for RWWA they are just how I see it

    Initially I thought an alternative view was a good idea and would be welcomed but I don't need the stress so had pretty much decided to not do any more posts before Jeremy wanted to know who I was

    attached are some figures I did from years ago

    Colin Smith

    doc
    doc
    First Time Winners Table.doc
    57K

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