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New Handicapping System for the Trots

Harness & Greyhounds

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  • getthechangegetthechange    310 posts

    marko as jay jay said both C3 and same HWOE

    if they were all $5000 to the winner races

    2yo = 25% = $1250

    3yo = 75% = $3750

    3 wins = 100% = $15000

    HWOE = $20,000

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,889 posts

    marko as jay jay said both C3 and same HWOE

    if they were all $5000 to the winner races

    2yo = 25% = $1250

    3yo = 75% = $3750

    3 wins = 100% = $15000

    HWOE = $20,000

    Ok then - there was a video on Bernie Hewitt - ( you watch any  nsw trots replay on AHR - and theres various videos on all leading nsw trainers  down the bottom of the page - ) the horse which put him on the map was Nickalong Shadow ( Aust bred ) he said it won 10  2year old races and then 10  3year old races

    Lets keep it simple 5k to the winner races ( he was placed in Derbys  etc ) when he turns 4 - where would he start off in the old system and new system
  • getthechangegetthechange    310 posts

    HRA ratings

    reluctant to comment on the HRA ratings as there may be detail missing

    My concern if it is as everyone thinks then the lower horses will be squashed by better performed horses in similar fashion to the drop back rule

    Using horses I am involved with the following applies

    Seven Demerits = C1 = 55 points            2 wins = HWOE = $6,162

    R J Bopper =         C2 = 60 points            8 wins = HWOE = $21,983

    Mvardles Gem =    C5/M2 = 75 or 95        9 wins = HWOE = $44,699

    using the ratings it is quite possible they could be on similar points after racing for a while

    Under the WA system in HWOE races Mccardles Gem can never get further back than the non prime HWOE LT $40,000 race which he can only get into via the also eligible clause

    R J Bopper would need to win another race to be pushed into the HWOE LT $40,000 race but even if he won he could probably use a novice driver and stay in the HWOE LT $25,000 race

    R J Bopper can start in the HWOE LT $12,000 race via the also eligible clause

    Seven Demerits could have R J Bopper to contend with but would have to win about five races and exceed HWOE $25,000 before possibly meeting Mcardles Gem.

    While Mcardles Gem can race in level 11+ metro races the main races for him are the  L5$ LT races which could also be called drop back races - he can go up and down in these races - currently he is eligible for a L5$ LT $12,000 race(level 8) - if he was to win one of these he would go up to the L5$ LT $20,000 race (level 10) - if he doesn`t win a level 8 race in his next five starts then he will most likely be eligible for a L5$ LT$8,000 race

    where the drop back in the old system saw courage tells etc dropping back onto horses trying to come through the classes the drop back races in the new system will see them competing against each other

    The only drop back races in the HWOE races are via the also eligible clause which allows a horse a one HWOE level drop

    Bit long winded but I believe there is more protection for the lesser horses in the WA system than in the HRA ratings system if it is as described

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Whether we like it or not the new system is in.
    And to be honest I am totally confused reading the different ratings.
    To me there are two issues here.
    1 The acceptance of the new system.
    2 The communication of RWWA in implementing it and the fallout that resulted.
    Only time will tell if the new system works however the fallout if it doesnt is what most people are concerned about.
    As far as point 2. I for one was a big supporter of RWWA when it was floated, finally a independent body with no bias to certain trainers, owners or drivers. But in my opinion they have lost their way big time. And it is not only the pacing code I am referring to. Numbers are down everywhere.
    People are frustrated because they have nowhere to turn and they can see the ship sinking.
    On a more positive note getthechange can you give us some of your wisdom for tomorrow night and give us a few tips. Curmudgeon is useless and i have a fishing trip to pay for. ????????????
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    edited February 2019
    My tip for you tomorrow night is Mandy Joan in the last @freodockers ....should be nice and molly the monk at that wedding to hear it salute for the Orazio Fantasia of Byford ...Mr D Thompson.
    Don't say I didn't tell ya 
    :-O
    ps...got some nice leatherjacket flathead skippy and herring dropped in from Albany yesterday...why bother with all that Capn Pugwash shite ?
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Curmudgeon obviously get the change is MIA so I will put my savings for the past week $100.00 each way on Mandy Joan.
    You must have witnessed her last start at Northam.
    Narrows it down.
    ????????????
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Wouldn't have been Lang Inwood he can't catch shite.
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    Trial vs Soho Interceptor prior to Northam was the indicator. She is improving all the time and will end up top class. From 1 she will be hard to toss as long as Thommo grows a Worsfold type heart in his instructions to the driver.
    The fish came from a contact ...daughter of a Perth Cup winning trainer ....piscean cross code allowance.
    Lang Inwood ...he still has last years fishing lines from Albany tangled in his boot with a couple of dried blowfish attached

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,786 posts


    re aussiebattler re marble ridge

    kane - when was he deregistered?

    04 august 2018 was deregistered  so was not transitioned as part of the current horses in the system and as all deregistered horses would have its actual HWOE (was not de-registered because of the NBM but along time before it )                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Aussie did rwwa get back to you on this one;; or there 's  somewhere you can locate deregistered dates
  • getthechangegetthechange    310 posts

    marko - re nikalong shadow

    10 x 5k = 50k x 25% = HWOE $12,500

    10 x 5k =  50k x 75% = HWOE $37,500

    start 4yo season at HWOE $50,000

    Under he MCR system I think he would be C8

  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    277 posts
    edited February 2019
    savethegame Garry Torto got back to me with a screenshot of what they have on file which had the date deregistered for marble ridge
    Buhn Lert is not deregistered and has HWOE $27,500

    savethegame likes this post.

  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    277 posts
    edited February 2019
    getthechange re-comment
    where the drop back in the old system saw courage tells etc dropping back onto horses trying to come through the classes the drop back races in the new system will see them competing against each other
    Transition Advantaged really good horses that eased back to an C6+M1 in Transition ,where as the C class probably should have been extended higher and awarded higher points to keep these types up in class a lot more and closer to their actual HWOE  
    Transition was way too light for these horses they instantly dropped back in class to race against weaker opposition 
    Courage Tells 210-34-24-29 earnt last season $64,008 M1 C17 R22 H$60872.75 when he started in the system could race against these types and simular 
    The Redeemer
    Horse Class
    M0 C1 R1
    HWOE Assessment
    H$17500.00
    Lifetime Summary
    137-9-14-10


    Last Season Summary
    28-1-1-1


    This Season Summary
    21-0-2-1


    Fig Form This Season
    040522658034446400960




    Lifetime Stakes
    $67,762


    Stakes Last Season
    $12,106


    Stakes This Season
    $8,198
  • getthechangegetthechange    310 posts

    aussiebattler

    with HWOE of $17,500 The Redeemer could start in a HWOE LT $25,000 and Courage Tells wouldn't be eligible for that race

    also without looking closely The Redeemer quite possibly could have started in a HWOE LT $12,000 race via the also eligible rule

    Don't think there was a right or wrong way to transition but I was heavily involved and it certainly wasn't done hastily and a lot of different ideas were tried. what was settled on I believe had the least impact after looking at all the figures - yes some came out better than others.

    It was draft 24 and that is the last comment I will be making on transition


  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    277 posts

    aussiebattler

    with HWOE of $17,500 The Redeemer could start in a HWOE LT $25,000 and Courage Tells wouldn't be eligible for that race

    also without looking closely The Redeemer quite possibly could have started in a HWOE LT $12,000 race via the also eligible rule

    Don't think there was a right or wrong way to transition but I was heavily involved and it certainly wasn't done hastily and a lot of different ideas were tried. what was settled on I believe had the least impact after looking at all the figures - yes some came out better than others.

    It was draft 24 and that is the last comment I will be making on transition



    yes that may be so with the redeemer but point I was trying to make was this system in transition is not stopping a horse like courage tells from dropping in class against horses coming through the grades ,although the redeemer is not the best example it showed the difference in horses ability previous class and historic form which put it an advantage against many horses
  • getthechangegetthechange    310 posts

    the question is it fair to transition courage tells etc into fast class when under the MCR he was an M1 - if someone had bought him as an M1 would that be fair - quick count and if all wins were included The Redeemer would have had HWOE of approx.  $30,600 so he too is racing with a discounted figure - would it be fair if someone bought The Redeemer as a C1 and he had  then been given  HWOE of $30,600. In my opinion taking the lower of the two figures seemed and still seems ok but clearly others disagree

    I gather Jay Jay wanted all horses to be given their actual HWOE figure at transition but I think RWWA would have got attacked even more doing it that way

    no more John Farnham`s - that is my last comment on the transition



  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    277 posts
    edited February 2019
    oh come on You know John Farnham made a come back from his come back tour lol 
    whether someone bought him as a M1 is irrelevant (should not have been a factor in the decision of correct handicap) It has already been stated that some horses did better in transition than others and that itself admits that the transition was not 100% handled correctly (they could have put more levels into it to keep them out of fast class) plenty of genuine C4/C5 25k plus horse examples out there if you want to compare them in form coming through the grades still would and will have to come up against lightly handicapped good horses in the LT $40k races in the country (at least they have restricted the metro races to keep them out) it is Partly a programming issue as well that let them in against lighter performed country horses 

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,786 posts
    Getthechange; you have been at the coal face for a lot years your three best horses,drivers,trainers
    in.wa you have seen over the journey  would be appreciated   .......... Gold star from. jay.jay. awaits if you find a spot for kill pouslon.
  • getthechangegetthechange    310 posts

     will all be west Aussies as I never really followed the ES

    Through my father I was able to speak to my idol Phil Coulson on the phone for a school essay and saw him in later years at Broome - always a gentleman

    Trainer - P Coulson - F R Kersley - G Hall

    Driver - C Lewis - J Schrader - F R Kersley

     J Schrader - my father in law but it didn't mean anything to him on the track where he took no prisoners  - after one Pin race I was still in stewards room explaining my tactics after Jimmy getting off the pegs just after the start and he was nearly back in Perth - he had told me his horse was erratic and to watch him - I watched him alright - watched him put me three wide and was I livid - didn't fall for that one again

    Horse - Mount Eden ( freak)- Preaux Chevalier (gate speed - could work or come from behind)- Im the Mighty Quinn ( don't think I`ve seen a better sit/kick horse)

    my fav horse when I was young was Radiant Oro

    Probably left someone out but they are my quick response

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Can someone help me out here.
    Looking at buying a horse from over east.
    What do I look at to establish who or what it will be racing against.
    Do I just add up all its winning stakes.
    Are races under a certain dollar value not counted.
    Do I include aged races.
    Don't want song and dance just want to know how to grade under new system.
    Not one for reading instructions.
    Cheers any advice appreciated.
  • getthechangegetthechange    310 posts

    freodockers

     if you are registered with Harnessweb or know someone who is then the horse`s HWOE figure is available there - all registered horses in Aus have a HWOE which is updated after each win

    The easy alternative is to contact the RWWA racing office and they will be able to give you the horse`s HWOE figure - once you have that info you can look at upcoming fields or results to ascertain what type of horses you will be against

  • sonnysonny    1,054 posts
    My advice is Who is the trainer and driver.. ? 
  • JayJayJayJay    7,629 posts
    Happy to look it up for you Freo (discretion assured). PM me if you wish with horse(s) name and I can forward you all info.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,889 posts

    Can someone help me out here.
    Looking at buying a horse from over east.
    What do I look at to establish who or what it will be racing against.
    Do I just add up all its winning stakes.
    Are races under a certain dollar value not counted.
    Do I include aged races.
    Don't want song and dance just want to know how to grade under new system.
    Not one for reading instructions.
    Cheers any advice appreciated.

    Hey pal - ive got the perfect horse over east for you - last Thurs night ran an eye catching 4th at Penrith

    And its beautifully named - youll love it - just the one word  Cupcakesnwhipcream - lol

    No seriously - there was a horse today who ran 2nd at Kilmore - Sofala - it was one of the biggest runs - ive seen at Kilmore in many a year 29.2 27.3 - 3 wide without cover from the bell . The person who has got it Donna Castles - she normally just  has scrubbers which race at Echuca and Shepparton

    If i was looking at buying a standardbred - which im not - but i think Sofala will win plenty - what it did today - you need a fair amount of ability to do it
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Marko just had a look at Sofala
    That is a serious horse.
    Few issues but if you could sort him out he would be awesome to watch.
    Have a look at his win on 14.08.2018.


  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Sorry 14.07.18
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts

    Marko just had a look at Sofala

    That is a serious horse.
    Few issues but if you could sort him out he would be awesome to watch.
    Have a look at his win on 14.08.2018.


    Owner  -Breeder - stallion - 4 y/o plus ...has ability but don't think he will be for sale. Safari was a bastard of a horse to manage around the stable apparently.
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    We can only try curmudgeon

    curmudgeon likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    BTW curmudgeon have a look at me tips GP race 7 last Friday night.
    1 run too early.

    curmudgeon likes this post.

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts

    BTW curmudgeon have a look at me tips GP race 7 last Friday night.
    1 run too early.

    The wiley ex Leonora amateur jockey Phil Duggan strikes again.
  • VillageKidVillageKid    2,275 posts

    BTW curmudgeon have a look at me tips GP race 7 last Friday night.
    1 run too early.

    The wiley ex Leonora amateur jockey Phil Duggan strikes again.
    Gee Duggan has done a great job with Im Batman.
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