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New Handicapping System for the Trots

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  • KTQKTQ    136 posts

    Could you tax NZ imports that have raced (excluding trotters) 20% of the purchase price and reinvest that money into races for WA bred horses, or races for hobby trainers?

    Or enforce a 20% of WA bred horses in every professional stable rule?



  • KTQ said:


    Could you tax NZ imports that have raced (excluding trotters) 20% of the purchase price and reinvest that money into races for WA bred horses, or races for hobby trainers?

    Or enforce a 20% of WA bred horses in every professional stable rule?



    BWAHAHHAHA funniest thing I have heard today.

    Oh hang on, are you serious?
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,277 posts
    I note 7 of the 11 horses in the maiden at Northam next Tue are 3 y/o 's. These are the types of races that formerly were programmed to keep faith with those who decided to keep the numbers up by racing aged non winners for whatever personal reasons and at the behest of RWWA as part of the handicapping rationale to maintain turnover at country meetings.
    Now...under the new handicapping system.....3 months into a season and less than a month into the advent of the system ...and despite a 3 y/o age race being programmed on the same meeting ( that didn't stand up acceptance wise ) ....people have decided to race juveniles for 75 % HWOE penalty and presumably to try and "pick off" a less competitive race against older horses.
    Absolutely predictable outcome and a disgraceful about turn in philosophy that will only accelerate the demise of average aged horses unless rectified. 



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  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    241 posts

    I note 7 of the 11 horses in the maiden at Northam next Tue are 3 y/o 's. These are the types of races that formerly were programmed to keep faith with those who decided to keep the numbers up by racing aged non winners for whatever personal reasons and at the behest of RWWA as part of the handicapping rationale to maintain turnover at country meetings.

    Now...under the new handicapping system.....3 months into a season and less than a month into the advent of the system ...and despite a 3 y/o age race being programmed on the same meeting ( that didn't stand up acceptance wise ) ....people have decided to race juveniles for 75 % HWOE penalty and presumably to try and "pick off" a less competitive race against older horses.
    Absolutely predictable outcome and a disgraceful about turn in philosophy that will only accelerate the demise of average aged horses unless rectified. 






    7 of the 11? So it wasn’t a full field and no one received a ballot as their can be 12 so let’s say there was 4 noms that weren’t 3yo so that race would of fallen over had they of decided to run the 3yo race with 7 runners, struggling to see the problem here
  • KTQKTQ    136 posts

    KTQ said:


    Could you tax NZ imports that have raced (excluding trotters) 20% of the purchase price and reinvest that money into races for WA bred horses, or races for hobby trainers?

    Or enforce a 20% of WA bred horses in every professional stable rule?



    BWAHAHHAHA funniest thing I have heard today.

    Oh hang on, are you serious?



    100% serious. High priced NZ imports, while 1000000% in their right to be brought here, are killing the industry - both breeding and participant numbers wise. Talking about the 3yo races, Barry Hamilton mentioned the low numbers of 3yos for the reason there are no current 3yo races (though they will be scheduled later). Why are there no 3yos? Lower foal numbers. Why are people leaving the industry? too hard to get a win
  • KTQ said:

    KTQ said:


    Could you tax NZ imports that have raced (excluding trotters) 20% of the purchase price and reinvest that money into races for WA bred horses, or races for hobby trainers?

    Or enforce a 20% of WA bred horses in every professional stable rule?



    BWAHAHHAHA funniest thing I have heard today.

    Oh hang on, are you serious?



    100% serious. High priced NZ imports, while 1000000% in their right to be brought here, are killing the industry - both breeding and participant numbers wise. Talking about the 3yo races, Barry Hamilton mentioned the low numbers of 3yos for the reason there are no current 3yo races (though they will be scheduled later). Why are there no 3yos? Lower foal numbers. Why are people leaving the industry? too hard to get a win



    Summer has always shown a decline in 3yos as alot are in the paddock. Yes local breeding numbers have dropped and RWWA need to address that. To TAX imported horses is a joke. Why NZ horses. Why not SA or NSW or VIC? The big stables have a buisness model that has proven successful, i know one of them has moved with the times and started breeding more or buying more at the sales. To Tax imports is a ridiculous idea and will deminish the product in WA.
  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    1,629 posts
    There is already a $2,000 tax on NZ imports collected by HRA and dispersed to the states to promote their local breeding industry .

    When introduced it was slammed by the importers and the NZ exporters ut numbers have apparently continued to increase.

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  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,277 posts

    I note 7 of the 11 horses in the maiden at Northam next Tue are 3 y/o 's. These are the types of races that formerly were programmed to keep faith with those who decided to keep the numbers up by racing aged non winners for whatever personal reasons and at the behest of RWWA as part of the handicapping rationale to maintain turnover at country meetings.

    Now...under the new handicapping system.....3 months into a season and less than a month into the advent of the system ...and despite a 3 y/o age race being programmed on the same meeting ( that didn't stand up acceptance wise ) ....people have decided to race juveniles for 75 % HWOE penalty and presumably to try and "pick off" a less competitive race against older horses.
    Absolutely predictable outcome and a disgraceful about turn in philosophy that will only accelerate the demise of average aged horses unless rectified. 






    7 of the 11? So it wasn’t a full field and no one received a ballot as their can be 12 so let’s say there was 4 noms that weren’t 3yo so that race would of fallen over had they of decided to run the 3yo race with 7 runners, struggling to see the problem here
    The No 1 issue Australia wide in terms of handicapping for years has been a proliferation of ultra short priced favourites. This has particularly been so in races where under the previous system 3 y/o's having won their 2 free races then targeted open age CO races and week in week out start odds on and win. Usually this did not start to occur until March /April of the season but this season it has commenced in November because 3 y/o's here are now rewarded for winning these races in terms of reduced penalty for winning from the outset of the new season. Administratively there has been an effective 180 degree turn in the philosophy surrounding 3 y/o race placement and odds on favourites ....after years of complaining that it was destroying competitiveness and pointing out the problem the new system is demonstratively going to make it worse in this area. Some clubs programmed the maiden races for 4 y/o up as a provision to head off multiple 3y/o winners and in some cases classic winners racing in them but cannot do so as the races are now listed as 3 y/o up. How long are owners of ordinary aged horses going to last before they pull the pin now ? If you have been on course and heard the discussions amongst trainers and owners you would realise it won't be long.
  • JayJayJayJay    4,890 posts
    Short priced  favourite central across the meetings thus far this weekend....Average winning price across the 10 races at GP last night was an almost unbelievable $2.20, 6 winners at $1.60 or less, highest price winner was $5.50 followed by a $3.50, a $3.20 and a $2.10 which helped boost the average to $2.20.  First 5 races at Bunbury tonight even worse...averaging $1.90. Narrogin was better....Average of $2.24 on 5 of the races and then 3 "blow outs" of $6.60, $14.20 and $17.50.....but 12 winners at less than even money...with 3 at a $1.10. Just a small sample I know but advocates of the new system, who based their praise of the new system on a small sample of meetings held in the first two weeks, must acknowledge all sets of data.

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  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    241 posts
    JayJay said:

    Short priced  favourite central across the meetings thus far this weekend....Average winning price across the 10 races at GP last night was an almost unbelievable $2.20, 6 winners at $1.60 or less, highest price winner was $5.50 followed by a $3.50, a $3.20 and a $2.10 which helped boost the average to $2.20.  First 5 races at Bunbury tonight even worse...averaging $1.90. Narrogin was better....Average of $2.24 on 5 of the races and then 3 "blow outs" of $6.60, $14.20 and $17.50.....but 12 winners at less than even money...with 3 at a $1.10. Just a small sample I know but advocates of the new system, who based their praise of the new system on a small sample of meetings held in the first two weeks, must acknowledge all sets of data.




    Hey Jayjay not sure if you’re on twitter but I presume your not, Barry Hamilton tweeted today that the best turnover races are when there is a favourite ranging between $1.80-$2.20 which makes sense to me, I’m on the fence with the new system but can see a lot of positives that can come from it and a lot more if they tweak it a little
  • JayJayJayJay    4,890 posts
    Credit where due, was an absolute ripper Bunbury Cup, top field, hugely competitive race, great call from Matt Young. Rocknroll Lincoln driven perfectly as was Vampiro, I'm Soxy went huge and a great spectacle.Was barracking like mad for Soxy and good on you Brian Clemens, doing a fantastic job with "the peoples favourite". Hard pressed to criticise that race.
  • JayJayJayJay    4,890 posts
    No Rocket, not on Twitter, Trump has put me off it for life...but the $1.80 to $2.20 range sounds logical. I am trying very hard to be open minded, it is not going to go away and yes, it can be made to work better in my view, if there is open dialogue and at least some acceptance of the tweaks required. I remain hopeful that RWWA actually listen and act on the concerns of people on the ground whose want the Industry to progress and whose livelihoods depend on it. There have been genuine concerns raised and without going over old ground, horse transition deeming values, more bandwidths, punter education by simplifying the complexity of the terminology,  PBD/RBD, 4 year old concessions, Westbred races, $L5 eligibility,  reverse points race re-instatements etc etc etc....it has all been put up before. There are ongoing meetings, the next on Wednesday with the Racing Manager and Handicappers, and I think all parties should be looking to reach some consensus on change. No one is looking to chuck the baby out with the bath water but an awful lot of experienced industry stalwarts have expressed their concerns and it it would be disingenuous to write off their concerns as simply "not fully comprehending the new model". I have spent hours and hours and hours trying to sort it out in my mind, some would say a rapidly deteriorating mind, but I am positive it can be done better than what we currently have and that consensus can be reached without resorting to a pie fight.

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  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    241 posts
    JayJay said:

    No Rocket, not on Twitter, Trump has put me off it for life...but the $1.80 to $2.20 range sounds logical. I am trying very hard to be open minded, it is not going to go away and yes, it can be made to work better in my view, if there is open dialogue and at least some acceptance of the tweaks required. I remain hopeful that RWWA actually listen and act on the concerns of people on the ground whose want the Industry to progress and whose livelihoods depend on it. There have been genuine concerns raised and without going over old ground, horse transition deeming values, more bandwidths, punter education by simplifying the complexity of the terminology,  PBD/RBD, 4 year old concessions, Westbred races, $L5 eligibility,  reverse points race re-instatements etc etc etc....it has all been put up before. There are ongoing meetings, the next on Wednesday with the Racing Manager and Handicappers, and I think all parties should be looking to reach some consensus on change. No one is looking to chuck the baby out with the bath water but an awful lot of experienced industry stalwarts have expressed their concerns and it it would be disingenuous to write off their concerns as simply "not fully comprehending the new model". I have spent hours and hours and hours trying to sort it out in my mind, some would say a rapidly deteriorating mind, but I am positive it can be done better than what we currently have and that consensus can be reached without resorting to a pie fight.




    Yeah I’m in the same boat without writing a novel I can see the positives and negatives in the new system but also a believer that something had to change, the old system was outdated but if they want industry sustainability they need more than a better programming model they need to attract new trainers drivers stable hands etc

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  • JayJayJayJay    4,890 posts
    Another area of concern is the effect it is having on Junior drivers....young Peterson was saying on Wenesday when we met with Richard Burt, that his opportunities have dried up, dropping from 13 to 15 drives a week to just 5, 3 of which were for his boss (Kristian Hawkins) and another for his Mum, so just one "outside" drive. Hopefully, an aberration as he is one of the leading junior lads and obviously we need a strong group going forward, so concessions  may be another area we can look at, I don't have all the stats but that concerns me.

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  • VillageKidVillageKid    1,324 posts
    edited December 2018
    JayJay said:

    Credit where due, was an absolute ripper Bunbury Cup, top field, hugely competitive race, great call from Matt Young. Rocknroll Lincoln driven perfectly as was Vampiro, I'm Soxy went huge and a great spectacle.Was barracking like mad for Soxy and good on you Brian Clemens, doing a fantastic job with "the peoples favourite". Hard pressed to criticise that race.

    Was a cracking Bunbury Cup last night JJ, that along with the enthralling 4yo Classic on Friday Night at GP and Galactic Star toppling the very much "hyped up locals" in the Inters Heat at Melton at least some positive news in what has been a testing time of late!

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  • JayJayJayJay    4,890 posts
    Yes VK, terrific Bunbury Cup, no argument there. And more hype about the locals at Melton than there was in the Horn/Mundine fight nonsense.

    But the odds on favorite trend continued in race 7 and race 8 with winners paying $1.90 and $1.30 respectively to make it 6 out of 8 odds on favourites, 3 of them $1.50 or less.

    By comparison, Ascot average dividends yesterday were $6.80 win, $2.27 place versus GP Friday night $2.20 win, $1.18 place.

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  • JayJayJayJay    4,890 posts
    Just so that everyone knows ....from the weekend:

    Maczaffair
    wins a $30k restricted mares race and yet only cops a $15k increase to
    its HWOE yet the win stake was $18,135? Whereas Davinci Diamond cops the
    whole whack of $10,881 for winning an $18k race, Our Max Phactor cops
    the full whack of $12090 for winning a $20k race,  Ana Malak cops $30k
    for winning $75,563. Can someone explain to me how this even approaches
    being fair? It so favours the high ability horse giving them free kicks
    all over the place.

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  • JayJayJayJay    4,890 posts
    Pinjarra today....the stand has some interesting handicapping...Dredlock Rockstar, a M1 C11 on the old system, a HWOE of $50k with actual earnings of $234k gets 10 metres, Must Be Nice an M1 C4 with a HWOE of $40k with actual earnings of $193k gets 20m ......that in itself is, well....different. But poor old It Aint Royal.....an M0 C5 with a HWOE of $37.5k and actual stakes of just $56.2k is only getting 10m off Dredlock Rockstar. No doubt, this will be explained and justified by those who see no wrong with the new system to the connections of It Aint Royal.

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  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    45 posts
    Sorry Can’t work out how this system is like for like nor how it is an even playing field or the reasoning behind handicapping some horses 100% of win dollars while other have less than 50% win dollars handicapped I understand how they work everything out but definitely don’t agree with it .

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  • RexRex    320 posts
    JJ, What is the H as in HWOE, maybe history? At Pinjarra today can you explain to me what this means - HWOE = $0  - HWOE = $0+  , and HWOE LT.

    Thanks
  • JayJayJayJay    4,890 posts
    edited December 2018
    Rex,

    HWOE = Handicap Win Only Earnings, the LT stands for Less Than (not life time as has been widely assumed)

    As far as Pinjarra is concerned:

    Race 2 is for genuine maidens (have never won a race) and these are the published conditions for that race:

    Maiden (HWOE = $0) 3YO and older. Maiden (HWOE = $0) (No Concession claims) Level 1 RBD

    Race 8 is for Trotters and the conditions for entry into this Level 14 Race are as follows:
    HWOE $0+  3YO and older. TROTTERS  HWOE $0+ Stand (CONCESSION CLAIMS ELIGIBLE) (Level 15) RBD
    Which for all intents and purposes, I think it makes it a Trotters FFA from a stand with the front line being 10m -(why I don't know?) with  (I assume) quite a bit of discretion available to the handicapper to determine what mark a horse will be starting from. You can claim a concession (only1) of either Junior Driver, Mare or Westbred...at least, that is my understanding of it.

    Race 1 for the pacers is a different set of conditions to the race 2 maiden:

    3YO Restricted 3YO. 3YO Restricted NE (not eligible) HWOE $15,000+ (NO CONCESSION CLAIMS) RBD



    Simples.


  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    45 posts
    And there are these exceptions to the rule
    HWOE LT $25,000 (concessions HWOE LT $29,500 (so if you’ve earnt more than $2,250 in the last 5 starts and are under the $29,500 you need a novice driver) also eligible HWOE LT $40,000 with LT $2,250 L5 (which means if your HWOE is under the $40,000 but you haven’t won more than $2250 in the last 5 you don’t need a Concession and you can have the highest HWOE in the race with an experienced leading driver to steer it around

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  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    45 posts
    Oh and because it is RBD the horse with LT$40,000 and LT$2250 L5 with the best non concession driver in the state can draw the pole and the horses with far less HWOE can draw the outside Gate
    Totally Fair right even if the LT$25,000 has earnt LT $2250 in its L5

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  • JayJayJayJay    4,890 posts
    A point raised before was 3 year olds racing in open aged races, correct me if I am wrong, but it would not be allowed in Victoria. Regardless, there was a Westbred 3yo  race (race 1) which had 7 acceptors and 5 went around after 2 scratchings. A Westbred 3yo, Harry Goodmate did not contest that race and instead contested the open age maiden, which is within the current rules, and won, beating up some very genuine maidens, some of whom have been trying for ages to win a maiden.He still collects his 3yo "discount" on his HWOE as I understand things, with only 75% of his win stake being accredited to him (Westbred Bonuses apply as well I assume).  If he races out of his class and wins, should he not cop the full whack as would occur if one of the genuine aged battlers won the race? Should he be allowed to race in the maiden, when there is a 3 year old race on the programme that he didn't contest?
    On a positive, he is out of Benjor Maddy Lombo, a brother to Handsandwheels and a host of other smart horses...a very serious broodmare.

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  • JayJayJayJay    4,890 posts
    Courage Tells ....an absolute handicapping certainty....had won $334k coming in todays race 7 at Pinjarra, buckets more than any of its opponents. It inherited a HWOE of just $50,000 as it had dropped back several M classes prior to the introduction of the new system ...if the punters had any idea of how this new system works, it would not have gone around at $4.70 or whatever it was, it should have been even money or less, a vastly superior performed horse. It was eligible because it had a very low $L5 (around $800) and a race condition was $L5 less than $2,250  Very astute use of the system by the trainer and the horse pockets another $4.5k. My understanding is that it can't race in one of these $L5 for its next 5 starts. Ambivalent about this sort of race, on the one hand it keeps the old timers going around (he is 11), on the other hand, most of his opponents had little chance. Too me, it is the same as Daniel John going to Kellerberrin in an R2 or better and flogging the locals, so the question may be what has actually changed other than an impossibly verbose description of the race conditions that few punters will either read or understand? If there was an advertising/education programme run by TABtouch or RWWA, then I missed it. Same animal, different disguise? I genuinely don't know. 

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  • aussiebattleraussiebattler    45 posts
    Courage Tells won more stakemoney last season than some horses had won in there entire career in that race and still got a let up on handicap to race in a lesser class

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  • JayJayJayJay    4,890 posts
    edited December 2018
    Yes, and to find out the conditions as to how he got in, accessing the HRA form guide is about the only way that punters can find the detail and the bloke having a beer after work is hardly going to access the form guide on the website and would depend on the tipsters. Ernie had Courage Tell picked for 4th, Trent was closer to the mark.  For the average Joe Blow Punter in TAB land, he would look at this as complete gobledeegook and say what the hell does this all mean? Where was/is the publicity and education campaign vital for punters to understand this? It may as well be written in Swahili.

    HWOE LT $40,000. 3YO and older. HWOE LT $40,000
    (CONCESSIONS HWOE LT $44,500)
    ALSO ELIGIBLE - HWOE LT $60,000 With L5$ LT $2,250.
    Preference to HWOE $25,000+ (Level 9). RBD.

    The reason the horse got in was because of his previous classification of M1 C14, resulting in him transitioning over at a HWOE of $50,000 in spite of him having won $334k in stakes. As I have previously stated, the deeming rate for transfer into the new system has created huge free kicks for many horses. It in all likelihood will not change no matter how many meetings we have as the transfers have been done on a national basis, probably at considerable cost, but it doesn't make it right, it just makes it a mockery. Important to add that the Bonds have done absolutely nothing wrong, they are simply taking their due advantage of the conditions of the race and the concessions granted to their horse.
    From a punters point of view, they haven't got a clue as to what is going on, and the fraternity is not in a dissimilar position, barring those who have spent hours and hours unravelling it all.

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  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,277 posts
    Exactly. When looking at form and classification between meetings in different states on any given day or night punters are faced with a general simplicity elsewhere or an overwrought descriptive system that provides a smoke and mirrors output in WA. The actual form cross reference possibilities are buried in there somewhere but you need a miners lamp and plenty of time to find it.
     

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    979 posts
    After reading this thread - and the posters who have really analysed it - and factually shown the massive holes/unfairness of the new system - especially ones who race horses and want a level playing field

    I think it can be best summed up - by the elderly lady with her 2 white poodles who use to frequent the Five Ways TAB in Sydney - she said - "Im breaking thje golden rule tonight - im breaking the golden rule " - i said to her - whats that - she said " Im having a bet on the Red Hots "
  • Kane_26Kane_26    69 posts
    Markovina said:

    After reading this thread - and the posters who have really analysed it - and factually shown the massive holes/unfairness of the new system - especially ones who race horses and want a level playing field

    I think it can be best summed up - by the elderly lady with her 2 white poodles who use to frequent the Five Ways TAB in Sydney - she said - "Im breaking thje golden rule tonight - im breaking the golden rule " - i said to her - whats that - she said " Im having a bet on the Red Hots "




    What are you on about???

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