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New Handicapping System for the Trots

Harness & Greyhounds

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,889 posts

    Marko your support the system that allowed for Nickalong Shadow to commence his 4yo career as an open class maiden is ridiculous to the extreme.


    Imagine a thoroughbred with 20 x 2 and 3yo wins starting in a maiden at Hanging Rock.
    Bulldust - where do you want it start in a free for all !!!

    If you have a very good Aust bred 2 and then 3 year old - who has raced very well  as a 2 and 3 year old - then as open age - you start off at the lowest and go through your grades - thats been the system for many years in a number of states

    Why should you be penalised when youve got a very good  2 and then  3 year old  horse - when its open age you can race it through the grades

    Its not all about the Penola Girls in this world mate
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    Markovina said:

    Marko your support the system that allowed for Nickalong Shadow to commence his 4yo career as an open class maiden is ridiculous to the extreme.


    Imagine a thoroughbred with 20 x 2 and 3yo wins starting in a maiden at Hanging Rock.
    Bulldust - where do you want it start in a free for all !!!

    If you have a very good Aust bred 2 and then 3 year old - who has raced very well  as a 2 and 3 year old - then as open age - you start off at the lowest and go through your grades - thats been the system for many years in a number of states

    Why should you be penalised when youve got a very good  2 and then  3 year old  horse - when its open age you can race it through the grades

    Its not all about the Penola Girls in this world mate
    Don't really mind Ausbred horses getting these sort of concessions Marko ....just don't allow them to draw 1 against the snaggers in CO class .....PD LTE . In fact if I had the policy reins over 3 years 75 % of races would become Ausbred  and at least 50% Westbred over here. Let the yelpers yelp ...the industry would quadruple in 10 years. 
  • getthechangegetthechange    310 posts

    Doesn't help when the HRA has a policy where 3yos winning 3yo+ (open age) races in NZ have the first two of those wins counted as non penalty races when entering Australia

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts

    Doesn't help when the HRA has a policy where 3yos winning 3yo+ (open age) races in NZ have the first two of those wins counted as non penalty races when entering Australia

    That changes under the new Ratings system from HRA. All horses once they attain 3 y/o get no Rating concessions.
  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    2,829 posts

    Doesn't help when the HRA has a policy where 3yos winning 3yo+ (open age) races in NZ have the first two of those wins counted as non penalty races when entering Australia

    That changes under the new Ratings system from HRA. All horses once they attain 3 y/o get no Rating concessions.
    WA attempted to get rid of the two penalty free races for three year olds some 10-12 years ago but the move was defeated by the strong breeding lobby on the HRV Board.

    curmudgeon likes this post.

  • Supporter of the latest camp by any chance ?..




    I know them yes. Dont think thats any secret.
  • getthechangegetthechange    310 posts

    re breeders - nothing much has changed from what chariots said regarding breeders lobbying

    The biggest breeder in WA is Bob Fowler who is a RWWA board member and also chairman of the harness racing committee - also on that committee is Howard King who according to the WASBA website is treasurer and vice president of WASBA - seems reasonable to assume they will influence decisions and that most likely they will have views that reflect the WASBA views 

  • getthechangegetthechange    310 posts

    re ratings system

    good to hear that once 3yos there are no ratings concessions

    In WA 3yos which have won in NZ take 75% forward

    eg Times Stride - two open age wins in NZ

    MCR = M0 C0 R0

    WA = HWOE $10,050 making the horse not eligible for $0 maiden - HWOE less than $3,000 or HWOE less than $6,000 races

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    Fowler is also WA rep on HRA board so obviously hasn't influenced HRA  Ratings Handicap policy anywhere near as much as he supposedly has influenced policy here.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,889 posts
    I see Jay Jays horse is in the 30k Northam Cup tonight and good luck to him i hope it wins

    But you have to ask the question ( and this is why i am anti standing starts ) how in the hell does it get in that field

    I looked up its form card - its had 57 lifetime starts - all mobile starts - never had a standing start race in its life

    Its had 2 trials to qualify in SS - the 1st try back in June - its got DNQ did not qualify Its 2nd try - well its got no  comment against it - but it didnt complete the trial but it must have stepped

    That type of nonsense has happened re qualifying for SS for 50 years

    Surely a race like the 30k Northam Cup for seasoned horses - common sense says - one of the conditions of entry is - must have had 5 standing start races in its life

    Its lucky its on 20 metres because its got a lot better chance of stepping - if it was drawn on the middle of the front row thats why you end up with that fiasco in the Hunter Cup years ago

    If you are going to have SS events - have proper qualifying conditions


  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,718 posts
    And yet another horse leads throughout at that Goat track Melton, beating the leaders back no less!

    Rip the bloody place up I say!

    Seriously though how bloody good is Tiger Tara going? How has he paid that well?

    VillageKid likes this post.

  • ChandonChandon    24 posts
    How many of you applied for the recently advertised Assistant Manager position? I'm sure the majority if you're really that keen on making a change. Good luck to those of you who did.
  • sonnysonny    1,054 posts
    I think that being an assistant is what that means.. They don't make changes, Do they??

    VillageKid likes this post.

  • ChandonChandon    24 posts

    Assistant harness manager

    Permanent

    The opportunity

    We’re looking for an Assistant Manager Harness Racing - it's an
    exceptional opportunity to step-into a newly formed leadership
    development role during a pivotal time of change within the harness
    industry.

    The successful incumbent will be a harness race expert
    and possess previous leadership or management experience. This role is
    accountable for developing race meetings and programmes, as well as
    contribute to the strategy and policy development for harness racing.

    You'll
    need to be accurate for this role. You'll be producing Harness race
    programmes for all of WA and provide data analysis reporting to external
    industry stakeholders pertaining to harness code performance and
    handicapping
    .

    You'll also possess excellent relationship
    management skills, key to this role is an emphasis on growing and
    developing the commerciality of the harness code.



  • sonnysonny    1,054 posts
    Thanks Chandon, So, is it to much for the manager or do they want a fall guy..

    VillageKid, TrackBias, curmudgeon, Kane_26 likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Assistant Manager Harness Racing , reads to me like a shitkicker reporting to someone who is the busiest person in the world and is screaming I'm too busy to do this job by myself because he or she is not coping. Have worked in management for some time and the first sign of mismanagement is a manager for a manager. Please RWWA is nothing but a bunch of fat cats justifying there own existence. Anyone with half a brain would not apply for that job description.

    curmudgeon, sonny likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    2lifetimewinners based on your previous comments pretty sure you are good at maths. Here's one for you.
    20 x 100,000 equals 2,000.000.00
    Fairly conservative figure for horses purchased out of NZ per year from Aus for the past ten years.
    That's now $20,000,000.00 for ten years that has been drained out of the harness racing industry that the average owner or trainer never see's again (it is gone full stop).
    The pacing industry has now become a bank for smart operators who can afford to abuse it. As a whole industry though we can't keep sending money overseas and expect a profitable return.
    NZ harness racing is booming.
    The reason why???
    Australia is supporting it.

    curmudgeon likes this post.

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    Warren Wishart would have been ideal for that Assistant managers job ....he used to do 3/4 of that stuff before he got the flick.
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,786 posts
    Freo. just on purchase prices with no proof, west aussies have been lining the kiwis pockets for a long time think about 20 years ago they paid 350k for classic turbo?, mid eighties remember horse called rollicking dean they paid 100k for  it  jim schrader...seventies horse called full draw..

    Butts sold report for duty for 100k as a seven year old.Val .Pereira whispering campaign,gay boyden, tricky was buying a heap as well. the total figure would be anything.......... Especially when people call a cheapie 30-40k..
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Without naming was heavily involved with one of the leading importers in the 80s and 90s to a lesser extent. It was nothing to pay 50 to 100.0k back then.
    It astounds me that RWWA or their predecessors to be fair haven't done the figures previously to see what effect it potentially has on the industry over here or in Australia. Imagine if that money had been spent horse trading between Australian states. We would have breeding grounds all over the place.
    That to me Is the main contributor to the demise of pacing in Australia. Now we are basing our handicapping system (in WA) around it to overcome short price favourites. Fix the problem don't adjust to suit it. PS I watched Rollicking Deans first trial at Byford finished at the back of a CO field Peter Schroder aboard. Think the Kiwis got the video tape mixed up on that one.

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  • savethegamesavethegame    2,786 posts
    Think with rollicking dean there was a picture  with  jim schrader having a bit poly pipe between his back legs up high trying to win the war with his antics,,you may remember that?
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    No I just remember the horse as a mad speed horse. I know the old timers used to put Vaseline on there gonads to stop them squeezing (stallions of course) maybe that's what the poly pipe was for.
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Another high priced dud was a horse called seanui bought over for FRK. Don't think it ever won a race.
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,786 posts
    Yer the old timers used to try some wonderful and weird things..the old cold spray use to shift the coconuts out the way in a hurry, was thinking the pipe would have been used to alter his action.

     but do remember seeing a old fella use  chain links welded to the back shoes  on the outside with jelly rubber attached to the cart trying to make it pace as a last  resort. this horses brother was a top sydney horse royal three didn't work.
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    Careful you blokes @freodockers and @savethegame .......if you talk sense regarding the disappearance of money to NZ through importation of high priced horses and it's negative effect on the Australian industry across the board you will get accused of "catering for mediocrity" .......the catch phrase of the brain dead or those with huge vested interest in keeping the status quo. 

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    I would call it "catering for the majority" but understand your point. Find it a little crazy though. Those with big $$$ to spend could still go interstate and buy the best horses from there (plus yearling sales). 
    Good luck to them that's what we need.
    If and its a big if, anything was ever done it would take a few years to recover but would put some much needed life back into the industry.

    curmudgeon, savethegame likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,786 posts
    Harness had it to good for to long,thought there product would survive for ever,The participants that were getting the most out of the game and had the most say continued to try and alter it to make it more easy for them to line there pockets  even  by fair or unfair means, field size reductions  stands were reduced..

    Then even prior to rwwa inception, The wata, employed a cannibalism approach taking meetings off cunderdin bridgetown,geralton, until the intervention of the racing minister  nick griffiths who was able to overturn the decision with the power of the act.

    Then along came rwwa with bennett throwing money left right and centre , money they had been held back from the codes  from the previous few years. the.industry went  halleujah,until the smoke had dispersed,.. The harness hymn book at the time,its  only copy left is now  used by rwwa employees

    It needs a major overhaul regards where we heading as a industry band -aids don't last long.

    Can remember seanui;; retzlaff think may have had him before kersley gee he could go quick but he fold like a cheap k-mart tent when it got dinkum.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,889 posts
    See all those tracks you have said have closed

    Ihad 3-4 lovely years in Tasmania - i know they havent got the distance problem  - but they havent got rid of all their old tracks - like St Marys   New Norfolk - they even in the holiday season hold a couple of meetings at King Island

    Those WA tracks which have closed -  why couldnt they hold 1-2 meetings a year - i think the answer  is WA Trotting have got no money

    A good contrast is Griffith in Riverina NSW -  it shut for years -( and i heard on the on course caller say that it in its heyday ther were 14 bookies their per meeting

    Now with  Griffith ( and some trainers have to travel a long way to get their  ) they hold 2 meetings per year - 1 week apart - 1st meeting - low prizemoney - but alot of heats for the following week - where there is the Cup 15k and several of finals 7k maybe 1 or2  at 10k

    But you need money to do that - and i dont think WA Trotting have got the funds to do that
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    You cant expect any controlling body to spend money reopening tracks when the pacing industry itself is not performing. But my argument all along is the controlling body is not making any worthwhile changes to fix it. Pacing in WA is dying a slow death and RWWA don't appear too interested in fixing the problem. Handicapping changes are just a cheap experiment and at the end of the day it is the same diminishing product going around, just under different circumstances.
    Get the handicapping back to a national standard, encourage interstate purchasing/competition and start putting some interest back in the game.
    Then the dollars and turnover might start heading in the right direction.

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  • JayJayJayJay    7,629 posts
    edited February 2019
    The frequency of horses from the same stable drawing adjacent barriers along side each other continues, a trend that started appearing a few months ago and which now appears to fly in the face of all known mathematical probability. For Friday night:
    Race 1: Bonds in gate 2 and 3
    Race 2: Hawkins in gate 2 and 3
    Race 3: Padberg in gate 7 and 8
    Race 5: Olivieri in gate 2, 3 and 4, Bonds in gate 6 and 7
    Race 8: Prentice in gate 5 and 6
    Race 10: Olivieri in gate 5 and 6

    There are some races where it hasn't happened but it seems a very high and unusually frequent occurrence. Has been raised before and was assured that the computer is frequently audited for gliches but surely something is not quite right? Just asking the question.

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