G'day Punter!

In this Discussion

Who's Online

0 Members & 5 Non Members

RWWA Performance

Harness & Greyhounds
I am new to this forum but have read with much frustration all of the valid comments regarding the Current state of the pacing industry. There are the usual suspects handicapping, turnover, field sizes which used to be not being able to get a start in a race, short priced favourites the list goes on. I don't have statistics maybe jj has he seems fairly up to date with these things. Nowadays I watch from my lounge chair but I have never seen a more discriminatory body than the current. Pacing and greyhounds advertising vs the racing industry is a joke (just have a look at RWWA homepage for an example or listen to racing radio aptly named). How can the first two compete with the later given this bias. Victorian and NSW pacing to my knowledge is doing quite well whilst SA seem to be on the improve, why not WA ? I can go on forever but to me the the answer is RWWA is responsible for the current state. A result of bad decisions and not acting on industry advice for the past ten or so years. They answer to nobody and bury any bad publicity. The major problem being nobody measures their performance, if they did they would all be looking for a job.The TAB is up for sale, to me now is the time for both the pacing and greyhound industries to put there heads together and act on what has been going on for the past ten years. The next question is who do you turn to for help because it shouldn't be RWWA based on previous performance. The people of the greyhounds and pacing industry need to stop blaming themselves for not being the major turnover players and ask outside government bodies what RWWA are doing to fix the issues.

Comments

  • doopadoopa    35 posts
    Figure this one out from RWWA. They have put Williams Trots and Narrogin Races on the same day 17th February. 2 small clubs 30km apart and they are on at the same time.Puzzling decision
  • freodockersfreodockers    339 posts
    They will close Williams next in the near future due to lack of horse numbers just like they did Kalgoorlie which was a breeding ground for up and coming trainers and drivers (Greg bond, Lang inwood, Courtney burch, bob mellsop, Steve burton, joe suvaljko, Sarah suvaljko Nathan dymock, Matt saw Chris voak, Shannon suvaljko, Dylan Egerton green etc all cut there teeth there not to mention owners ie Peter Gianni, Condipperderos) due to lack of horse numbers. What did they do to KBRC two months later when they couldn't get fields, went on a campaign to get horses out there. Absolute joke

    VillageKid, curmudgeon, savethegame likes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,093 posts
    Mate - you said in your opening post that NSW are doing quite well - which they are

    Not suggesting anything - but the only reason for that - is they sold Harold Park - and with some of the proceeds ( and the yearly return on the money they have invested ) substantially boosted stakemoney  right accross NSW- with an excellent Country Cup programme - even Broken Hill gets part of the pie

    Before they sold HP - NSW Harness Racing was the pits $ wise - even Steve Turnbull was looking at moving to Vic

    As Neil Day once aptly said ( before the sale of HP ) that NSW Harness Racing is like a slow cancer

    If you sold GP - well Kalgoorlie would be still be in action - all the country circuits - they would be keen to keep - even resurrecting ones that have closed in years gone by .- there would be plentifull money for everyone

    I can remember the Vic govt about 8-10 years recognised the importance of trotting to the fabric and culture of country towns - plus the tourism aspect - and reopened a number of country tracks
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,070 posts
    Markovina said:

    Mate - you said in your opening post that NSW are doing quite well - which they are

    Not suggesting anything - but the only reason for that - is they sold Harold Park - and with some of the proceeds ( and the yearly return on the money they have invested ) substantially boosted stakemoney  right accross NSW- with an excellent Country Cup programme - even Broken Hill gets part of the pie

    Before they sold HP - NSW Harness Racing was the pits $ wise - even Steve Turnbull was looking at moving to Vic

    As Neil Day once aptly said ( before the sale of HP ) that NSW Harness Racing is like a slow cancer

    If you sold GP - well Kalgoorlie would be still be in action - all the country circuits - they would be keen to keep - even resurrecting ones that have closed in years gone by .- there would be plentifull money for everyone

    I can remember the Vic govt about 8-10 years recognised the importance of trotting to the fabric and culture of country towns - plus the tourism aspect - and reopened a number of country tracks




    Im not sure how much GP would be worth now? That area of Perth is flooded with Apartments etc with more to come.

    I was always anti a sale, would be anti a move to no metro head quarters but with attendances how they are now all avenues need to be looked at
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,449 posts
    The money from car parking, drinks and eats will be a bonanza for GP coffers Gilga ...especially during the footy season. I think they have areas already booked out by Eagles and Dockers clubs.

    Offthebit, VillageKid, JayJay, jum likes this post.

  • VillageKidVillageKid    1,529 posts
    Yeah selling off GP and then we have no presence whatsoever in a metropolitan area that contains 2.1 million people in a state with only 2.6 million that makes a huge amount of sense!




    JayJay, Offthebit, Ridersonthestorm33, jum likes this post.

  • jumjum    2,688 posts

    The money from car parking, drinks and eats will be a bonanza for GP coffers Gilga ...especially during the footy season. I think they have areas already booked out by Eagles and Dockers clubs.



    Exactly and I think there product will only get better @ GP too. I have gone through there 3 times to get too Optus. the last time we all met there had a few beers then went across to the footy. It was a much more enjoyable time having a beer than the Camfield.

    GP could start to make a nice profit of the back of Optus. Unlike there Galloping counterparts who are too short-sighted to utilise the stadium to there benefit. 

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,093 posts

    Yeah selling off GP and then we have no presence whatsoever in a metropolitan area that contains 2.1 million people in a state with only 2.6 million that makes a huge amount of sense!





    As Gilgs said - who actually goes anymore - bar the feature race nights - not many

    You want the best of both worlds - you want a city track - everyone wants that - in every state - however the example i showed - if they sold it would stakewise state wide give a tremendous boost to the industry

    I would love to know ( outside the feature nights ) what the average crowd is on a Friday night ( on a Tues night - they wouldnt get a 100 outside of the participants )

    So on a Frid night what is the average crowd -  say 1000 -so for those 1000 you have to keep it - and racing on a 800 metre track
  • freodockersfreodockers    339 posts
    Sell GP give everyone a temporary stakes increase and RWWA sit back and tell everyone what a great job they have done. I would rather see some serious commitment moving forward from RWWA and then maybe look at selling GP based on their future plans. 

    BTW Markovina i am all for country trotting and totally agree. FYI Wyalkatchem, Cunderdin,York,Training (its a town) Merredin and Kalgoorlie have all been closed down in the Eastern districts and we are left with Northam and Kellerberrin. The entire region has been decimated and we will never see these clubs reopen unfortunately.. 
  • VillageKidVillageKid    1,529 posts
    Markovina said:

    Yeah selling off GP and then we have no presence whatsoever in a metropolitan area that contains 2.1 million people in a state with only 2.6 million that makes a huge amount of sense!





    As Gilgs said - who actually goes anymore - bar the feature race nights - not many

    You want the best of both worlds - you want a city track - everyone wants that - in every state - however the example i showed - if they sold it would stakewise state wide give a tremendous boost to the industry

    I would love to know ( outside the feature nights ) what the average crowd is on a Friday night ( on a Tues night - they wouldnt get a 100 outside of the participants )

    So on a Frid night what is the average crowd -  say 1000 -so for those 1000 you have to keep it - and racing on a 800 metre track
    How would you know you apparently never attend Gloucester Park?
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,070 posts

    Yeah selling off GP and then we have no presence whatsoever in a metropolitan area that contains 2.1 million people in a state with only 2.6 million that makes a huge amount of sense!








    But what presence do they have? I am a sport FM man, GP pumped some effort in to New years, free tickets to go see live entertainment and some fireworks. Bugger all talk of actual racing. No mention of the Fremantle Cup that I heard but pretty sure Mat Young was on Friday morning for the Pacing Cup to do a preview but no adds in the build up.

    A greyhound advert is on there nearly every second add break talking up the dishlickers and the meal options.

    The only advertising they do is to those already converted, I get emails for Beaurivage but if I wan't a member I wouldn't even know the place existed.

    If they have made a motza from parking and drinks from the stadium then that would be sensational, I look forward to seeing the books come Oct. My expectation is that while Revenue is going to be up expenses are going to be up something similar. I've parked over near Belmont a couple of times and walked over, the amount of traffic management involved to have their bit of parking every chance they are struggling to break even from the revenue raised.

    I think the real value would be in running race meetings in line with Stadium events. Not from the growth of punting revenue but in actually having a true presence in the metro area. People will actually see one or two races first hand and might fall in love with the sport and come back for a closer look. Now they stop in and slam down a few cans (myself included) and head off to the stadium with scant regard for what actually goes on there on a weekly basis.

    This was where I thought PR were extremely short sighted in the changes they made for Perth Cup. Yes they make the same amount of profit from 12000 odd as 40000 and a few less drunk yobos head along but I know first hand for many of my mates that was there introduction to the races and they went back multiple times a year from that introduction, now that next gen never gets that intro.

    For the record I am not for leaving GP I am just open to debated.

    Also I disagree with Marko as much as anyone but it would be nice to be able to have Civil intelligent discussions from time to time.
  • VillageKidVillageKid    1,529 posts
    edited January 30
    Wasnt selling off Richmond Raceway also going to be the problem solver for ever and a day for the trots???
    You sell GP and there is no coming back and to have no harness racing presence in the Perth Metro area where 80% of the WA population live will be the end of the sport here it will be end up a niche lil pastime like the rodeo for country folk!

    At least having GP in its location close to the cbd, on the Swan River, a bridge walk over to Perth Stadium etc if utilised correctly (chinese new year, italian night etc) it can give us exposure to a new audience of a reasonable size how is that going to happen without a city presence?

    Now getting back to the original topic considering the massive downturn in the trots since RWWA have been the controlling body why do they continually spend more and more money on the gallops and stuff all on harness and greyhounds in comparison?
    And wasnt it the old WATA in partnership who actually started the TAB here in WA it certainly was not the WA Govt pity we now have no say in what will eventually happen to it even the consulting groups have been all gallops people that I have seen?

    Ridersonthestorm33, savethegame likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    339 posts
    Gilgamesh I agree with your comments re no publicity but you have to ask yourself who has been responsible for the past ten years in promoting pacing and the answer is RWWA. Here we are discussing selling GP the only asset we have left to cover up their mistakes. Sorry boys we can have a go at each other over opinions but the bottom line lyes with those people who decided they only wanted one racing code along time ago but were two naive to realise that need all three to succeed. Never put your eggs in one basket.

    VillageKid likes this post.

  • ToepuntitToepuntit    205 posts
    Next to nobody goes to gp outside of the major meetings, I'm a regular attendee and I think it's pretty rare to get anything I could call a good attendance, probably get a better turnout at a night meeting at Pinjarra if they had lights,
    I'll probably get shot down for this next statement but here goes,

    GP is an on pace, peg biased track, was much better before they played with the camber, wouldn't hurt my heart a great deal if they did sell it and built a new more modern track.

    Kane_26 likes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,093 posts
    Re Pinjarra under lights - when they had the old triangular track- i often went to their night meetings - it was very pleasant -  particularly in the summer months -plenty of grassed areas - had about 6-8 bookies their

    They used to have a traditional  night meeting on the Monday  night before the Melb Cup - they use to have a preview of the Cup on the radio - and id listen to on the drive their

    Toepuntit likes this post.

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,449 posts
    I drove on the old Pinjarra triangle. Black as a dogs guts out on the track. If Pinjarra ever go back to lights then I hope they have plenty in the bank to pay for the power .....something they haven't had to consider for a long time and it is still a dark backdrop there when the sun goes down. I have been on a couple of club committees.....it ain't cheap to light up a harness track and if you think it is going to attract dramatically bigger crowds...think again. The days of nocturnal masses driving to the country are gonzo. There are still 4 seasons and during a couple of them the night isn't all that hospitable out in the elements. Pinjarra owns Monday daylight ...when you are on a good thing stick to it is my humble opinion.
  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    1,775 posts
    At the risk of being seen as a RWWA apologist I would like to provide some balance to freodockers criticism. This is not personal as we support the same football team although I must admit to being one of the dwindling number of Ross Lyon supporters.

    Just some of the initiatives that have benefited harness racing since RWWA took over in 2004:
    • Distribution has increased by 107.2% against an inflation rate of 37.6%
    • Metro base stakes have increased by 80%
    • Country base stakes have increased by 133%
    • Payments to Drivers and Trainers have increased commensurately to the point that the more successful drivers can make make a nice living from just driving.
    • Introduction and expansion of breeding incentives such as Westbred and Epona.
    The Greyhound industry could point to harness racing being subsidized by their turnover but should acknowledge the vast amount of capital infrastructure at Cannington to maintain a metropolitan presence.

    There are a number of ongoing operational issues that need addressing but I cannot agree that RWWA has turned its back on harness racing and greyhounds.

    Gepetto, Gilgamesh, VillageKid likes this post.

  • michaelmichael    7 posts
    And as for stake money what a load of shite that Albany is allowed to race for more than any club on Friday night
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,449 posts
    edited January 31
    RWWA originated as the distribution and management body that arose from the policy decisions of the Gallop Labor governments to reduce tax on wagering and retain the TAB to provide stable ongoing income to the racing codes......instead of selling it off.
    The three codes were on their knees and stakemoney had stagnated and shrunk in real terms against cost increases for years when Gallop ( the son of Ron Gallop a former harness steward) came to power in 2001.
    The issues facing the racing codes became a big election issue as anyone around at the time would remember. Gallop honoured his pre election commitment and in essence RWWA was gifted a wellspring of cash to distribute after the percentages had been agreed. People should remember this before they rush to back the sale of the TAB that the Barnett and now McGowan  governments want to push through. Once it has gone there is no returning for a second dip...and political promises made now tend to disappear into the mists of time when in the future crises arise.
    The point is that RWWA itself cannot claim to be genesis of most of the largesse subsequent to the Gallop decision. 
    It was THE most significant part of the purpose of RWWA coming into existence and it was handed the money by the government decision.  What would be interesting is to compare the operational costs of RWWA today and circa 2006. 
    So before RWWA pats itself on the back it needs to remember it is a body that is exists to further the interests of all three codes in a balanced manner and is guaranteed funding to do so without having to lift a finger. 

    "A number of operational issues "....I think you may be a master of understatement Chariots.

    freodockers likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    339 posts
    Fair points Chariot but from what I have seen of RWWA everything is based on turnover and that results in a discrepancy in stakes between the codes. How can pacing or greyhounds compete when RWWA is 150 percent focused on promoting the racing code. It is all you hear about weather radio or newspaper and it's wrong. The longer it goes on the worse it is going to get and Perth dogs or harness will end up like another state which I will not mention because I don't want to use them as an example. Ps stakes increases and driver payment increases can be disguised in many ways just ask all the clubs that have been closed down, ie Kalgoorlie, is that considered a stakes increase for Albany or other clubs. Finally I think the bulk increases from memory were during the honeymoon period for RWWA . Also whilst I'm at it I maybe turnover needs to be investigated further. It's great to have big sales but what is the bottom line on each code after expenses does anyone know ???
  • freodockersfreodockers    339 posts
    Curmudgeon any chance you are on BOTRA or are you tired of banging your head???
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,449 posts
    edited January 31
    Curmudgeon any chance you are on BOTRA or are you tired of banging your head???


    This is my current perspective freo




  • GlenGlen    35 posts
    michael said:

    And as for stake money what a load of shite that Albany is allowed to race for more than any club on Friday night

    Why shouldn’t they race for the normal stake money that is offered to every other country club?
    Is it cheaper to feed and pick up **** down there?
    If so I might have to go down that way and take advantage of this great value
    michael said:

    And as for stake money what a load of shite that Albany is allowed to race for more than any club on Friday night

    michael said:

    And as for stake money what a load of shite that Albany is allowed to race for more than any club on Friday night

    michael said:

    And as for stake money what a load of shite that Albany is allowed to race for more than any club on Friday night


    Rocket_Reign, freodockers likes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,093 posts
    Re the point Chariots made  - Driving Fee - i think he is correct - they can make a decent living now

    Iread a few months back - Lance Justice who is the spokesman for the  Vic Drivers - they now get Super - on top of their drivers fee - another 9.5%- very good

    If i was Morgan Woodley whose career seems to have stalled ( maybe he is only part time ) - then circumstances permitting id be heading straight to Victoria - he would get 25-30 drives a week - he is a very good driver - but he is getting very few drives
  • ZimmermanZimmerman    75 posts
    Marko im not sure of morgans circumstances and no doubt of his talents as a driver but he has tendered to ask too much of his drives on too many occasions throughout his career. There was a period a few seasons back when quite regularly morgan seemed to drive over aggressively, on the edge so to speak but probably to the frustration of owners/trainers. He seemed to jump off horses like mr magical mach and onto young maidens and forget to change his tactics! From my eyes this happened far too regularly for a leading reinsperson. All that said i wish him the best as his talents are undeniable.
  • freodockersfreodockers    339 posts
    Hey Chariots was reading the very accurate statistics you posted. Any chance you could tell me where you found them or did you ring RWWA on your shoe. Just asking because I just want to view the turnover for GP for the past ten years to see if it is falling away. Ziegfreed.
  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    1,775 posts
    All of that information taken from the RWWA Financial Reports.

    Not sure that individual turnover for GP will be available from that source.

    By the way Agent 99 is my research assistant.
  • freodockersfreodockers    339 posts
    Ahh so they only publish good news. Or is turnover at GP discussed under the cone of silence?...
  • whipitgoodwhipitgood    10 posts
    curmudgeon said:RWWA originated as the distribution and management body that arose from the policy decisions of the Gallop Labor governments to reduce tax on wagering and retain the TAB to provide stable ongoing income to the racing codes......instead of selling it off.The three codes were on their knees and stakemoney had stagnated and shrunk in real terms against cost increases for years when Gallop ( the son of Ron Gallop a former harness steward) came to power in 2001.The issues facing the racing codes became a big election issue as anyone around at the time would remember. Gallop honoured his pre election commitment and in essence RWWA was gifted a wellspring of cash to distribute after the percentages had been agreed. People should remember this before they rush to back the sale of the TAB that the Barnett and now McGowan  governments want to push through. Once it has gone there is no returning for a second dip...and political promises made now tend to disappear into the mists of time when in the future crises arise.The point is that RWWA itself cannot claim to be genesis of most of the largesse subsequent to the Gallop decision. It was THE most significant part of the purpose of RWWA coming into existence and it was handed the money by the government decision.  What would be interesting is to compare the operational costs of RWWA today and circa 2006. So before RWWA pats itself on the back it needs to remember it is a body that is exists to further the interests of all three codes in a balanced manner and is guaranteed funding to do so without having to lift a finger. 
    "A number of operational issues "....I think you may be a master of understatement Chariots.

    Well for a start, CEO Richard Burt was on $300k, now he's on over $800k. Check the annual reports. If you get a chance ask Burt about the Mazzucchelli's payout of millions of dollars that cost him his General Manager's position (sacked) then when Ray Bennett retired he came back (like that fella from Nazareth) as CEO. Then ask him will he ever release the board minutes that sit in a safe in an envelope marked "Never to be opened". He's a liar, he's a bully and he's a marked man. 

    freodockers likes this post.

  • whipitgoodwhipitgood    10 posts

    Ahh so they only publish good news. Or is turnover at GP discussed under the cone of silence?...

    Maybe more like a cone of marijuana. 
Sign In or Register to comment.