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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    979 posts

    Chatiots can you recall, it was in the newspaper's of the time - that their was a little concern with punter's complaining that Bookmaker's were taking too long to put up prices after the previous race for the next race ?

    Just remember reading something about that frustration - may have been more the races.

    The funny thing is now odds go up like on a Wednesday for a Saturday!! But sometimes bookies on track were a little tad off the mark to get the odds up.

    Hey Riders - re your above post

    Many many years ago - i was giving the Pro Punt a go

    And i went up to the York gallops ( midweek meeting ) and i was betting predominantly on the Syd and Melb  interstate races

    There was 1 bookmaker fielding on those - i can see him now - short in stature - but an immacutely presented bloke - beautiful checked sports jacket etc - was it Myles or Martin someone

    But what he was doing - say there was 3 price calls per race - coming over from  the E/S tracks ring - he would wait till the 3rd and final call  came and just bet those odds . So if you liked something and the money  had already come for it on track over East then you missed out

    I actually went to the betting supervisor and complained about that - and he came out ( because i remember seeing it ) and told that bookmaker that he had to bet from the 1st call

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  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,243 posts
    edited April 8
    That might have been Dennis 'the menace' Martin...no surely not...Dennis was a good commission agent wasn't he Chariots ?

    Met him 9 or 10 years ago for the first time and several times since, found him quite funny and an interesting character, always likeable and free with his "information". He was pretty close to the mark, not always but not bad just the same - he liked to back two or three in a race sometimes. ( For somebody else I think ).

    However did say to him several times..."Dennis just how did you survive in the punting game without a mobile phone ?" Never seen a guy use a phone that often!
    Between race 2 and race 3 at Harvey or Northam their were 47 phone calls!

    Did he try his hand at bookmaking as well ? Not sure if his surname was Martin..think it was. Haven't seen him for awhile now but imagine he's still a regular - he was a bit like me just for the fact of loving Racing & Pacing.
  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,243 posts
    edited April 8
    And yes Chariots do recall reading something in the newspaper that a bookmaker was to be designated to put the odds up first and for others then to follow suit and there was a time factor with that. The punters were getting restless!

    Was a bit of an issue for awhile - perhaps Rod White - Daily News or Gino Da Barri - The West wrote up on it.

    Also didn't they at the trots for a litte while change it from a "bookies ring" to whereby you guy's went in a line or back to back - so bookies couldn't copy as easy - then the pretence being that punters would get a better deal with the odds with bookies not being able to "see" others prices or supposedly making it more difficult to see ?

    Don't think it lasted that long ? Then you went back to the "circle".

  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,243 posts
    edited April 8
    That was at the Tab where met Dennis. In and out of there every two minutes on his mobile phone - bets then placed - watch race - win/lose/draw straight back on the phone!
  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    1,636 posts
    Marko, Denis Martin was never an interstate bookmaker. If your name is right it could have been Vin Myles but unsure who bet interstate regularly at WA country meetings.

    Denis spends half of the year or more in the UK these days. Had lunch with him about 2 months ago.

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    979 posts

    Marko, Denis Martin was never an interstate bookmaker. If your name is right it could have been Vin Myles but unsure who bet interstate regularly at WA country meetings.


    Denis spends half of the year or more in the UK these days. Had lunch with him about 2 months ago.
    Not Vin Myles - the bloke im talking about - was a leading interstate gallops bookie - if you went to Ascot - he would be betting on Melb and Syd gallops ( he never fielded on the trots even when there were dual licences ) and he happened to be betting at York that day on the interstate gallops

    He had a posh name - as in christian name - but i cant remember it - like i say short in stature - glasses - and very well presented - suit/sports coat checked /jacket
  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,243 posts
    edited April 8
    Charoits can you explain this one - and it's to do with why bookmakers would never bet you "backwards" ....I've read some sneaky punters tried to do this in another era. It can be seen through clearly, but the occasional punter got away with it for a short time.

    However now trying to work it out has got me bamboozled again - it went along the lines of backing a horse in seperate races and it assured you couldn't lose - but I can't work it out now.

    To your bookmaker you'd say...it went something along the lines of....
    I want 1k @7/1 on Robert The Bruce in the first race as long as Beltane loses in race 7.
    Then to another bookmaker I want 1k on Beltane in Race 7 @5/1 as long as Robert The Bruce wins race 1.

    However that still doesn't make sense!!

    But it was something like that, just can't work it out, as said its something to do with why a bookie will never bet you "backwards"...but for the life of me just don't get it now.

  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,243 posts
    edited April 8
    Wasn't Duncan McGougan was it Marko - but he was a gentleman of a eastern states bookie and very fair - never failed to bet a point or two more on top weighted horses. He must have have had a little aversion to them.

    Market would come through and the two toppies called out at 6/1 and 8/1 and he'd go 7/1 and 9/1 or better. Others in the race he would keep to the odds called through.

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  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,243 posts
    edited April 8
    The other thing that was amazing was those "cardboard" tickets of bookies....not so much the tickets...but the scribble!!

    Could never work out how anybody could possibly decipher what was written especially the clerk paying out - but really what was the most important was the bet was recorded correctly on the bookie's duplicate or triplicate sheets of paper. The ticket of course had a number on it too.

    Did witness the occasional argument but it was very rare.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    979 posts

    Wasn't Duncan McGougan was it Marko - but he was a gentleman of a eastern states bookie and very fair - never failed to bet a point or two more on top weighted horses. He must have have had a little aversion to them.

    Market would come through and the two toppies called out at 6/1 and 8/1 and he'd go 7/1 and 9/1 or better. Others in the race he would keep to the odds called through.

    Youve got him Riders thats him

    He wasnt that fair at York that day - thats why i dobbed him in to the Betting supervisor
  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,243 posts
    edited April 8
    Haha yep they could all be a bit cagey!
    When you said no dual licence thought that'll be him because he was never at the trots.

    Did have a good collect with him one day - it was Belmont Park and he was betting on Kalgoorlie after the Eastern States races were over.

    There was a horse in the last at Kal I liked, it was handy - Buckshot Bandit - hoop Marilyn Fagan and was top weight.

    Knew he would go that point or two more - approaching start time 8/1 - he went 10/1, I had 2000/200 ( I was probably close to 2k down for the day! )

    No vision those days - it was before Sky - gosh how important were those race descriptions on the radio back then -perhaps up to dozens of punters in the eastern states ring voices now hushed as the race commentary from Kalgoorlie came through.

    All can recall is those wonderful words you want to hear to at least give you a hope..."and here come's Buckshot Bandit right down the outside"...things from their just got better.

    I've let out the "you ripper" roar....and heard the bookies clerk say to him "200" haha that was my bet...possibly the only bet he held on the horse.

    Buckshot Bandit finished up running second in a Perth Cup at about 50/1 - mid 80's possibly to Linc The Leopard - the reason remember his runner up - I gave him no bloody chance!
    Was a good horse overall though.

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  • savethegamesavethegame    1,101 posts
    RIDERS; you not thinking along  these lines  a punter approached a bookie and said I will bet you a 100 pounds  that he would pick seven of the eight winners on the card and chance of eight, and the loser donates the money to charity, and his tip for each race he would  lodge in a steel box padlocked with the bookie to hold the key,and to be opened after the last sure enough he had seven of the eight winners.

    Steelbox had a slit in it for the punter to put his selection in written down, how did he do it.......the selection had to be in box 15 minutes prior to each race.

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  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,243 posts
    edited April 8
    Haha...I've read a few stories about a few punters who got away with a few things to do with bookies - but they were short lived - however one guy betting "backwards" think they call it, did get away with it in NSW for quite awhile - possibly 1950's or 60s/70s.

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  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,243 posts
    edited April 8
    Well stg I know one punter who thought Old Rowley was a special in a Melbourne Cup light years ago, problem being this punter has no money and Old Rowley is 100/1.

    Here's his foolproof plan - popular trustworthy guy - decides to run a sweep on the Cup - gets all the money in - and then afterwards goes and tells everybody they've drawn Old Rowley...he then takes the money around town to the SP bookies and backs it each way.

    End result Old Rowley wins Melbourne Cup at 100/1.
    Sweep winners everybody! There all happy and he's happy to pay them.
    He got on at the 100/1 - set him up for life.

    Now that's what you call a win/win situation.

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  • savethegamesavethegame    1,101 posts
    Walter Craig dreamt his horse nimblefoot won the melb.cup told family &friends how clear it was ,so he had numerous wagers on it, but what puzzled him the jockey wore a blackarm band,he died the next day,few days later nimblefoot won 1870 cup.....Wonder what the bookies did go phew or honour the bets to his family.

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  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    1,636 posts
    Never heard of was involved in any "backwards" betting Riders.
  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    1,636 posts
    Episode 5 - over The Odds Again

    A meeting at Northam and the bookmaker designated to put up the prices for a race opened a horse at 8/1 that I had assessed at 6/4. A regular punter claimed him for a bet of $800 to $100.

    The bookie did not get flustered and said "Stan I have obviously made a monumental error but as an act of good faith I will bet you $160 to $20".

    From a diminishing memory I think the horse was Dark Escort (Alan Mitchell) and it duly saluted.

    The bookie was one of four brothers that fielded at both equine codes for an extended period.

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  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,243 posts
    edited April 9
    Stg...you know what would be the opposite of the above - tell everybody they've drawn a no chance horse in Prince Of Penzance and then go and back Max Dynamite!

    Was on Max as well as 3rd,4th,5th... oh Frankie Dettori you just had to beat Michelle Payne to the run and the Cup is yours. Think he did knock a few over just the same.

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  • savethegamesavethegame    1,101 posts
    Best ever seen bookies son who was setting the board put up 33/1 a two year old galloper called satin bow who had won its only start by 6 odd lengths  it was the days when the twoyear old races were over 600m, its right price was 3/1on his father merv, the bookie tried to say no bet after his son had wrote the ticket 1650 to 50 the betting steward was called prior to the race and bet was to stand,after the race have mentioned before the tongue lashing he received wouldmake ron barrasi   look like a choirboy. and he later became a bookmaker like his dad merv, brothers peter,tony,kevin,his name brain.

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  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,243 posts
    edited April 9
    A litte similar stg...Ascot races - the days when you get bet on the photo result with bookmakers yelling out the odds... you could bet on protest decisions with your on course bookmakers too.

    Anyway I use to step into a couple of those from time to time - and some photo's at Ascot were tricky and would rely on three things to decide - Max Simmonds, the tv monitor and my gut feeling!

    Anyway had a bet on the photo and the clerk called the wrong odds back to me way in my favour as the bookmaker was accepting the bet and writing out the ticket...then hold your horse's the bookie as handing me the ticket realised that wasn't correct - and my goodness did that clerk cop a bollocking.

    I would've been ok with the bookie saying look that's a mistake, but in his good honour he had written the ticket and so he accepted the bet.

    Now if you think the clerk copped it before the result it was somewhat more so after the print was decided. Was just one of those things - but I wasn't knocking back the money either - bet put on and called - bet accepted - ticket written was good enough and full credit to the bookie he payed.

    Good East Perth supporter and well known in that area!
  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,243 posts
    edited April 9
    Of course the big words back coming from the on course commentator after a photo was taking along time to decide was that..."the judge has called for a developed print."

    Now never quite understood back then what that was all about ? I'm guessing a larger version of the photo ?
    Why would he/they wait to look at a "developed print"....not the brightest but never got that.
    Sometimes a second or third developed print would be required.

    Talking of photos last race at the main Queensland meeting last Saturday at Toowoomba - judge placed number 5 fourth when it was actually number 15.

    Correct weight announced and paid out on the incorrect numbers - I mean seriously it's 2019 - there's surely some checks and balances done on these thing's before their made official.

    Tabcorp in its wisdom is going to pay out on all first four results - the wrong numbers and the correct numbers. We live in amazing technological times and yet the mistakes made 8-|

    I did see that race and had the 5 in the quinella - not a bad run to finish about 7th, got blocked for a run a little - then strike me pink - heard the guy on Sky about 15 mins later say "yes its definetly the 5 that ran fourth and correct weight."

    Thought bugger me that didn't run fourth...oh well must have been seeing things...then read a couple of days later - wrong numbers semaphored.
  • OffthebitOffthebit    552 posts
    Markovina said:

    Marko, Denis Martin was never an interstate bookmaker. If your name is right it could have been Vin Myles but unsure who bet interstate regularly at WA country meetings.


    Denis spends half of the year or more in the UK these days. Had lunch with him about 2 months ago.
    Not Vin Myles - the bloke im talking about - was a leading interstate gallops bookie - if you went to Ascot - he would be betting on Melb and Syd gallops ( he never fielded on the trots even when there were dual licences ) and he happened to be betting at York that day on the interstate gallops

    He had a posh name - as in christian name - but i cant remember it - like i say short in stature - glasses - and very well presented - suit/sports coat checked /jacket

    "he had a posh name - as in christian name"

    Duncan
    :-j

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  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,243 posts
    Slim Dusty..."I like to have a beer with Duncan..because Duncan's my mate!"

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  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    1,636 posts
    Duncan McGougan did not mind a beer either.

    I could never quite work out why he had to bet overs the markets that were coming through from the biggest and best bookmakers in Australia. He did survive for a long time though.

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  • JayJayJayJay    4,895 posts
    Chariots, am assuming your referring to the Mack Brothers, such a contrast in personalities. Bill always appeared cool as a cucumber, polite, gentlemanly. Eric always frowning, flustered, scowling and looking like the sky was about to fall in. It was part of the fun assessing the character of the bookies. each seemingly had their own quirks and mannerisms, Some very business like and quite scholarly, I remember Bruce Atkinson when he first started looked like he had just escaped from year 12 at a grammar school, Eric Wilson looking incredibly shrewd and dapper and there was a husband wife team there for a while...was it Terry and Sue?....The ring was a most interesting place in those days, with (I think this is right) the supervisor Mr Ivankovich casting his eye over proceedings.
  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,243 posts
    edited April 10
    Terry Rhode think had a dual licence for a period. Eric Wilson bet some big prices, when others had 25/1 he would have 50/1.

    Duncan did bet better odds - and yes the call coming from the biggest bookies in the land, but quietly and nonchantly especially on the top weighted horses he could go anywhere from one to four points better, and never flinched. Some large bets went on - it could be a very busy ring the ES.

    A top weight might come through the call as 6/1 - Duncan goes 7/1, but next call if 8/1 he'd go 10/1 and often he wouldn't even wait for the call - next moment he's gone 12/1 before the price has come through. No mobile phones or any communication he could have received. He just didn't like the toppies!
  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    1,636 posts
    JayJay you summed the Mack brothers up to a tee.  Eloquent Mach could well have been named after Bill.

    Ian and Sylvia Boylan were the husband/wife team and they were responsible for some fiery exchanges from time to time. Ian was a very good judge in his own right.
  • JayJayJayJay    4,895 posts
    Perfect call Chariots, perfect....Eloquent Bill he was. One of your compatriots once told me Eric was that tight he cut his own hair.....used to get really flustered when there was a strong move happening. One night, I was placing a commission on a horse called Young Burma....Eric had him at 3's when everyone else had put up 2/1. Lots of yelling and pushing "You'll all get on, you'll all get on" all the while looking over his glasses as he crayoned out the tickets. Horse bolted in, Eric was dirty for weeks. Yes, Ian and Sylvia...thank you, I have no idea where "Terry and Sue" came from...and I also recall some interesting "exchanges" between them, quite funny in retrospect but time does that, often ameliorating the the heat out of the argument.
    Spent a very pleasant  hour talking to Terry Rohde yesterday....retired and residing in Tasmania nowadays but made the trip West to host John McNair's wake on Tuesday, which he did superbly. Of course, Terry owned the great warhorse Mustard who was trained by John for 19 wins and over $800k in stakes, including a metro success in Sydney aged 13 and a placegetter at 14 at his 2nd last start. The horse still resides at Corimba Park in Somersby NSW, where he has a home for life. It was a condition of sale that when John sold his training establishment that the new owners inherited old Mustard with his life long retirement written into the bill of sale. He still rules the place apparently, as he always did, demanding to be fed first and putting on a hell of a show if he wasn't given first place in the queue.
    Interestingly, Terry used to have a weight ratings system for horses and he placed Detonator as clearly top of the tree during his time of dominance. He reckoned weight was not an issue with the great horse and would throw the ratings out the window, as 10 stone plus couldn't stop Len Pikes super star.  Was a marvelous gathering with Jimmy Taylor contributing a wonderful and very emotional eulogy  covering his lifelong friendship with John....and he had a lot of back up from Paul Harvey, Bernie Ryan, Danny Miller, David Harrison etc, all there in support of John's large family. Jimmy rode Sovereign Kite for John to win his last race in WA prior to relocating to NSW.  A gathering across the ages and I wish I'd have had a tape recorder to collect all of the reminiscing that took place. A very fine send off.

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  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    1,636 posts
    Terry Boylan was Ian's older brother who also fielded at GP.

    Had a bad experience with Speedy Ben who he took on about four starts in a row and Speedy Ben and Les Poyser won all four and took him to the cleaners.

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  • JayJayJayJay    4,895 posts
    A lot of people underestimated Speedy Ben....and that other Tassie horse that Les had...Melfield Tyros....because they were from Tasmania but both performed outstandingly well in what were very stout fast class ranks. I certainly didn't contribute to his bad experience...old Speedy Ben caused me some pain at the time.
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