Bookmaker/Punter AnecdotesHarness & Greyhounds

Chariotsonfire

Gay Italiano was a prolific owner for Wilf Powell in that era and didn't mind a bet either.

savethegame

Chariots went to quite a few meetings with gay+davo, Never asked him how he went the drive on the way home told the story the faster he went the more he had lost, the slow he went, laughing and joking you knew he had a good night.

Went with them to back one of wilf powell horses memory of the track it was wagin or narrogin,anyway it was the harpers show, on the track Lindsay got tipped out,donny ran on the track as the race was still running having a crack at greg harper whos still left in the race and, hes trying to give him one with whip,

Stewards was undercover  like a pavilion  can remember a few patrons jump up&and down on the floor boards we want harper of cause a quite few others joined in,Donny harper came out of the stewards saying ill fight yous one at a time.   ;;;Wilf Powell  horse had run third early in the night, so it was a quick trip home.

Chariotsonfire

From memory I think one of the Harper horses was Flying Syd. Bizarre scenes on that night at Wagin.

Greg went close to causing the biggest drama in trotting history when he tried to drive his horse back into the field after being knocked over soon after the start at Richmond Raceway one night.

Back to Gay he took exception to me backing one of Wilf's horses, could have been Trial Flight, one night. He said he would get Wilf and Phil to pull it up. My response was it is your perogative but it only means you have to pay up for it a bit longer and I can still back it any time. 

savethegame

Chariots dead right flying syd was the horse greg drove was going to print that, but got mixed up thinking of  rick sertorini who I think had a horse called crazy syd.or sid

Think greg jumped the fence at trials when his girlfriend Ansley Williams got tipped out going for her  licence and he wanted to punch on with who he thought was responsible

.  

Chariotsonfire

A very colorful career could describe Greg Harper. Don and his two sons have thrived on controversy.

The two grandsons appear to be much more controlled.

getthechange

Was the horse Svengali involved?

getthechange

Chariots
Guessing but in the back of my mind Svengali was involved in an incident at Wagin and
Possibly Lloyd boy involved in an incident at Fremantle

Chariotsonfire

Not sure about Svengali, but Lloyd Boy was almost certainly the Richmond Raceway horse.

JayJay to the rescue.

JayJay

I "met" Svengali one day at Ken Tyler Jnrs stable when he went out training on his own. He was well named, an absolutely evil animal with a strong dislike of humans. He had a muzzle on, which should have been a bit of clue, but he had other tricks in his arsenal including swiftly turning and letting go with both barrels with deadly accuracy. Kenny warned me but alas he both bit and kicked me. If he did go **** up at Wagin,  then good luck to anyone trying to catch him. He could run a bit but he didn't have a prolonged career...from memory, he won a Qualifying Stakes in town ...and a few other placings to go with some country wins ...and then was moved on. I am fairly sure he wasn't involved in that infamous race at Wagin, he was 4 years older than Flying Syd. But there are plenty who could tell you.....from my experience, there must have been 10,000 people on course that night, a lot of whom claimed to be standing right next to Don when he went over the fence.

curmudgeon

JayJay said:

I "met" Svengali one day at Ken Tyler Jnrs stable when he went out training on his own. He was well named, an absolutely evil animal with a strong dislike of humans. He had a muzzle on, which should have been a bit of clue, but he had other tricks in his arsenal including swiftly turning and letting go with both barrels with deadly accuracy. Kenny warned me but alas he both bit and kicked me. If he did go **** up at Wagin,  then good luck to anyone trying to catch him. He could run a bit but he didn't have a prolonged career...from memory, he won a Qualifying Stakes in town ...and a few other placings to go with some country wins ...and then was moved on. I am fairly sure he wasn't involved in that infamous race at Wagin, he was 4 years older than Flying Syd. But there are plenty who could tell you.....from my experience, there must have been 10,000 people on course that night, a lot of whom claimed to be standing right next to Don when he went over the fence.

:-j :-j :))

VillageKid

savethegame said:

JayJay said:

Bay Reward, December 2 1978, plunged in the last race at Bunbury, driver was A.R Hall (his trainer). First of only 3 wins for the horse, the other 2 were a heat and final at Pinjarra (Dec 16 and Dec 28) when Trevor Warwick drove him.

Two punters that I knew quite well after the race,said they had received the same information that it would win, the punters I knew were  davo+gay, went to the kalg.round with them and they won over 10k,at the two up when they returned to collie they got  wilf powell to find them a horse  .

 Pride of Kentucky a beautiful jet black. and a good horse.was a result of two-up winnings.

Davo. son peter was a top footballer injury prone,played state football,eagles, Brisbane bears, Claremont,east freo.

Trying to find the last piece of football swap,think peter was zoned swan districts, there was a three player swap,ken marshall went from subicao to swans, peter Davidson went swans to Claremont without playing a game for swans how I think it was? trying to remember who went from Claremont to subicao, Village Kid your the favourite for the answer,  think I got it right so far.?

You are well and truly spot on the mark STG it was a 3 player/club swap as you have already posted back in the pre season summer of 1982/1983- 

Strongly built blond forward Ken Marshall went from Subiaco to SD, Peter Davidson who was a highly rated junior went from SD country zone club Collie (without playing a game as you correctly said) to Claremont and the missing piece of the puzzle was All Australian Amateurs star Greg Wilkinson (who was tied to Claremont ex Scotch College) was cleared to Subiaco.

All were good swaps for their respective clubs Marshall played in SD Premiership side in 1984 (was dropped for the 1983 flag), Davidson had a great career at CL winning an F&B and was an inaugural WCE before a severe knee injury curtailed his career whilst Wilkinson played in Subiaco Premiership sides, won an F&B and Captained them in the late 80s before succumbing to injury.

Peter Davidson later made a comeback to play with his younger brother Jeff at EF and both played in their 1992 upset GF win over SF and from memory Jeff played in EF's 1994 flag win as well.

I believe the Davidson's were related to former Claremont, Footscray, Perth & WA firebrand wingman Allen "Shorty" Daniels who was a star at Tigerland at the time and that may have played a part in getting Peter over to the College Boys in 1983?!

JayJay

I am pretty sure Peter Davidson went to Brisbane and played a couple of years for the Bears as they were in between WCE and east Fremantle. Shorty Daniels hailed from Collie as were the Davidsons, so likely were related.

Just going back to Svengali, I think Stuart Shenton was involved in his ownership  but don't quote me.

savethegame

Brillant stuff  V.K. was no hope of getting greg, Wilkinson, but I do know shorty is peter&jeff 's  cousin and David Hunter  the trainer that does a top job with a small team of pacers is there uncle.

Think peter Davidson followed the big Russian alex ishchenko  to Brisbane bears were he only played seven games. they were  inaugural teammates at eagles

VillageKid

Apologies JJ & STG i did miss Peter Davidson playing at the Bears after leaving WCE and before making a comeback with EF.

The Bears had a plethora of West Aussies playing for them in their first few years at Carrara on the Gold Coast. Inaugural Eagles Davidson, Ishchenko, Gastev & Zanotti all got their marching orders during the Todd years and headed for Qld to join other West Aussies there in Hardie, Richardson, Bain, Lester-Smith, Judge, Caton, Sewell (as Football Manager) plus ex Claremont star but native Banana Bender Gary Shaw.

JayJay

The Bears, by comparison to the start up concessions afforded to West Coast, The Suns, GWS and to a lesser extent the Dockers, were not even given half a chance to succeed. It was a slow train wreck and in spite of all the best intentions from those players, many of them beyond their best days, along with the ridiculous training arrangements and organisational chaos, they didn't have a snow flakes chance in hell of succeeding. A quite disgraceful chapter in the expansion of the "VFL" and a lasting indictment on the management of the day.

savethegame

1993  inters trip was a trip that had everything, Jack morris won inters, valley champ won the conso lation  a battling jockey kevin gover tipped us a horse he was riding to be on it, it won, found a shop that had one foot custard cream chocolate eclairs would have put two lengths  jay,jay. on your  sticky date buns..

Another highlight of the trip  was the Anzac day football match, have only been to handful of  afl games live ,

The game had everything ablett snr,kicked eight,   gabba was excellent viewing so close to field of play,.Witnessed john gastev-ich  who  we thought was on  a suicide mission, when he went up and started proding ablett snr, in the chest. before the first bounce.

Gastev, went very close to getting his wish , because when ablett  got a chance he ran straight through him, it was a fair bump the slap of bodies was right in front us, out cold, unresponsive on the stretcher, going past  us on the boundary line,.  Gee thought gastev had woken-up that morning with the iq of grape.;;;;;;;, mate said he sure did try to show a bit ticker on Anzac day.

Ablett took another one out, can't think who  it was.a fair bump that day i realized, how much of allround  superstar Ablett really was .If you were building afl footballers pretty good template,G.Ablett

Buckley was best on ground , Bairstow got the brownlow votes...voss played. gee that match had a lot big name players..... Geelong won by a point 127-126; Brisbane tried to play hold possesion  and lost it in the dying minutes.

Jay Jay buckley was a non- conformist with the draft,  initially resisting a move to Brisbane bears  in 91, when he did go in 93, he signed only for one season 93 said that's it,.....Wonder what went through his head when the lions beat them in grand finals 2002-03 grand finals..and how he addressess players that want to move on.

 

JayJay

The goings on around Buckley going to Collingwood via Brisbane are well known......Northern Territory zone pick, refusal to participate in the 1992 draft,  SANFL Margary Medallist and Premiership player with Port, the "agreement" to go to Brisbane for 1 year provided he could go to a club of his choice after winning the Norwich Rising Star, the signed contract with North which the AFL wouldn't honor because of a date technicality and a change to the contract form and then ultimately, Collingwood stepping in with draft pick No1 and two players (Starcevich and Lehman) in exchange.....it all reeks of draft manipulation of the highest order but nothing was ever done about it. Couldn't happen these days......or could it????

I suspect a lot of things went through his head as Brisbane racked up the treble, especially the last two when it was the Pies who ran second....maybe he was thinking "I might not have got a game" in that once in a lifetime midfield of Voss, Black, Aker, Lappin, Power and company along with Browny, Lynch,White, McRae, Lepper, the Scotts, Michael, Ashcroft, Pike etc etc. ...or maybe not. Because, all vindictiveness and emotion aside, Buckley was an absolute Ferrari ....but you make your bed and you lie in it.....and the "Tom Melbourne" of the AFL probably sleeps very comfortably. I hope he does but the reality is that the Holy Grail, 26 years after the event, remains elusive. Maybe he will get there this year....The Pies certainly look to be right in the mix, if not outright favourites after 5 rounds.

One thing I can say is that in 2002 and 2003, without the benefit of hindsight, and in the heat of Grand Final celebrations, I probably danced on his grave a bit.....and for all that, I probably wished I hadn't. He was a great, great player.

jum

JayJay said:

I am pretty sure Peter Davidson went to Brisbane and played a couple of years for the Bears as they were in between WCE and east Fremantle. Shorty Daniels hailed from Collie as were the Davidsons, so likely were related.

Just going back to Svengali, I think Stuart Shenton was involved in his ownership  but don't quote me.

Shorty Daniels played at Claremont with Peter. Peter's Old man John was the President of the Collie Saints Football Club for many a year. He recruited Shorty to coach Collie. Pretty sure no relation just close friends( not 100%). Shorty was a school teacher at high school when I was there in the early 90s.

Speaking of Gay Italiano. Gee I have heard some stories about his punting days. Would play cards for days.

jum

savethegame said:

Brillant stuff  V.K. was no hope of getting greg, Wilkinson, but I do know shorty is peter&jeff 's  cousin and David Hunter  the trainer that does a top job with a small team of pacers is there uncle.

Think peter Davidson followed the big Russian alex ishchenko  to Brisbane bears were he only played seven games. they were  inaugural teammates at eagles

there you go STG is on to it.

bookielover

Ridersonthestorm33 said:

Bookielover what about the great bookie armed robbery that occurred in Melbourne at Tattersalls or wherever the settling was done at - was that in the 70's ? Wasn't much security it appeared, did they just rely on the element of surprise ? How many were involved and were they caught ?

Also one from left field - can you recall a young hoop Craig Dinn riding in Victoria ? Thought was going to be a top jockey but seemed to find some trouble, was around about the time Darren Gauci was riding winner after winner as an apprentice.

Hi Riders, 

Apologies for the delay in replying, been busy.

My old man was there that day in April 1976.

The robbery was very well organised. There were at least 6 blokes involved led by two professional crooks, Brian and  Les Kane. Most of the perpetrators finished up dead. There were also corrupt Police involved.

Les Kane was killed about five months later by one of the robbers a bloke called Prendergast from memory, and they were never convicted because they couldn't find the body.

The robbery took place on the second floor of the Victorian Club, where bookies and big punters did their settling. My old man was lucky in that he'd been to the bank across the road from the club that morning, and banked about 50 grand just before he went to the settling, so there was only, if I can use that term, 8 grand in his Mayne Nicholas bag. 

They are now called Armaguard and they looked after the bookies money, bringing it to the track, and to the settling which took place on Monday and Friday. My old man was going to be working at a Country meeting the next day, and felt that he didn't need to have much cash brought to meeting.

Other bookies lost fortunes, I reckon at least 6 million was taken just from the figures I actually heard from bookies. Bookies only got a minor part of that money back. 

The reason that happened, was that you had to pay insurance based on the amount of money you had declared was in the bag. And let's face it, no one ever thought that the Mayne Nicholas trucks would ever be robbed, let alone at the Victorian Club itself. 

So none of them, including my old man would declare the actual amount that was in the bag. My old man got his 8 grand back, because that's what he declared. 

He declared the actual amount because it was considered a small amount, and he was a rails bookie, and as he told me, pride wouldn't allow him to only declare say 4,000. However if he had the whole 58,0000 in the bag, he would only have declared about 20 grand of it.

Many bookies had Rolex watches, diamonds, and the wife's jewelry that she only wanted to wear on special occasions in their Mayne Nicholas bags, and found it more convenient for hubby to get the ten carat diamond ring on Saturday after the races so she could wear it at night then put it back in the bag on Monday at the settling, rather than keep the stuff in a bank safety deposit box.

If they had gone out on the previous Saturday night, it saved some jewelry, provided the missus had asked the bookie to bring home the ring etc, however,, from what I gleaned at the time, and from the looks on their faces, I reckon you could have opened up ten jewelry shops with what they knocked off.

I remember Craig Dinn well. Rode mainly for Theo Howe. I think weight got to him. He was also charged, from memory, and I better say it this way, for allegedly firing an arrow at a shop/building, or someone. Someone else may remember that incident.

He used to live with Des Moran, from that infamous family, who was shot at when Craig lived with him. Another Jockey, Gavin Eades was allegedly involved , but I don't know what happened. Eades was a fabulous talent, but went the wrong way, if I can put it like that. 

Des's missus is now a resident in a facility paid for by the Victorian Government. She's there because she murdered Des's brother Tuppence.

Lot's of stories about the Moran's all of whom I knew, and all of whom except Judy are dead. I knew them well, through Judy's father, Leo Brooks who was a knockabout who worked at the Carlton Football Club for 30 years. My old man was very heavily involved in the club and we would go to Princess Park every Tuesday and Thursday for footy training. 

Jason and Mark would come to footy training and Mario Condello a solicitor who was part of the Carlton Crew as they were called would be there as well. Alphonse Gangitano was a regular. Believe or not, they were all nice blokes to talk to, and our relationship was always at arms length They were the last blokes you would want to get intimately involved with. 

They were interesting times.

:(

bookielover

Interesting reading about bookie numbers at the trots from Chariots, and the drop off over a 10-15 year period in the 80's and 90's.

The reasons were pretty simple and applied to all three codes. The race/trot and greyhound clubs around Australia, looked upon the TAB as a never ending source of money.So as we entered the 70's and the Tote became a major player, the generation of punters coming through at that time, were encouraged to bet with the Tote off course, and through their phone accounts. The nail in the coffin, was Sky Channel.

What we see now, are the Corporates who have invaded this Country, along with Racing Ministers and Governments who have, for the last 20 years, done nothing to give on course bookies even a sniff at a level playing field, particularly in WA. Just ask Diva.

Victoria, is the last bastion of decent bookie numbers at the races.

There will be 38 bookies working on the first two days at the Warrnambool carnival and 48 on the final day. There were, 95 bookies working each day over the four days at Flemington and with some operating more than one stand, that went to 105. Some bookie licenses are for sale in this State, while one Sydney bookmaking family are looking to buy licenses.

Robbie Waterhouse operates on the rails in Melbourne but still has his Sydney license. He does that because he wants to work the carnivals.

Having said that, as far as I know, there are no bookies at the trots, although Bendigo have a bookies night and last year, I think five bookies worked there. As for Melton, there is no bookie, but there may have been during the Inter Dominion.

There is not one bookie working at any greyhound track in Victoria, except for a bookie who works at Sandown on big nights, Melbourne Cup etc. There is no bookie at the Meadows.

Incredibly, 5 bookies worked at the Stawell Gift.

Steve Mulhall is it in Perth at the trots and only for main meetings. There are no bookies at the dogs. 

I looked up the Best Bookies site on Monday, and no bookie on that site was at York races, when you would think that with a holiday crowd there, someone would have gone there. perhaps a bookie who isn't on the site did work. I have noticed that there hasn't been any bookies working some Bunbury race meetings. Again, my reference is the BB web site.

Pinjarra and Bunbury trots, won't allow a bookie on track.

There are no bookies working any dog meeting.

At the races, I reckon there would be about 10 bookies maximum at the Summer carnival. And that's pretty good in this day and age.

It's certainly great compared to Adelaide which has three bookies at the Morphetville meetings and on Adelaide Cup day, one extra bookie decided to work. Curly Seal, Adelaide's biggest bookie works at Angle Park every Thursday night, and at Port Pirrie trots of all places on Friday nights.

They have two working at Gawler, Penola, Naracoorte, Strathalbyn and Mount Gambier races, and one at Murray Bridge.

Bottom line is, that it's getting harder and harder for bookies to run a viable business.

I have been to the races in Perth and you'll see young blokes on their phones calling their Corporate bookie because they can get Bonus Bets, money back if your horse runs second, first past the post payout irrespective of protest result, etc,

What can the on track bookie offer them. 

Nothing, because the genii who run Perth racing, or is ir RWWA, or the minister, who the hell knows, and it's a new Government there, won't give bookies a chance to survive. Yet every time these blokes are interviewed about the situation, they trot out the same, bookies bring colour to the track line.

At least Victoria have tried to accommodate the needs of our bookmakers a hell of a lot better over the last five years, which is why as tough as it is, there have been very few resignations, and some licenses have been bought off existing bookies so the numbers are holding up to the point where there are closed rings at tracks like Geelong and Pakenham.

There will come a time, and sooner rather than later, with South Australia being the first, where there won't be one bookie left.

Nothing is forever. 

At least I can say, I lived through the halcyon years of bookmaking when Kerry Packer would send his agent into the ring at Flemington and he'd ask each rails bookie, how much will you take for this. When, Eddie the Fireman Birchley was throwing as much cash as the bookies would take on a horse. when Felipe Ysmael would send shock waves through the ring with the size of his bets. He was a lovely man . 

Blokes like Garry Roberts who bought a share in Vo Rogue and was one day putting hundreds of thousands on, and the next day couldn't put 100 on. 

I have seen the biggest go broke.

The late Gabe Farrah who owned Better Loosen Up, Campaign King and others and who once had 200,000/50,000 Campaign King at Caulfield off bookie Mike Faulkner among other bets, and it won, went broke owing a fortune to some bookies.

Very few bookies and punters survive long term in the game.

Today, especially in Melbourne, bookmaking is looked upon by most bookies as an earn. Very few will gamble. The days of having 40,000/10,000 let alone 200,000/50,000 are gone.

On the one hand, what has happened is sad. On the other, it was always inevitable.

I recall an advertising campaign about 30 years ago, to try and attract people to the track. The adds were shown on prime time TV and featured a jingle titled it's in the blood. There were young people up against the fence and horses running around. I asked a racing administrator at the time, Why aren't you showing those people having a bet with the tote or bookies? That's why most people go to the track isn't it, to bet? He had no answer.

On racing.com they advertise the country races. No mention or shot of a tote window or a bookie. Just that you can hire a marque. Whoopee!!

And then there are the stories they do about the the country cups meetings, Avoca, Warraknabeal and so on. The features run for about 15 minutes. They show you every part of the track, speak to every one from the President to the bloke behind the bar, but not to one bookmaker in order to get a comment as to how good or bad or viable the meetings are. 

They did a story on the Mansfield picnics. They are non-TAB. They had 6 bookies working there. Not one was spoken to for the story.

And that, to me, says it all. 

sonny

As Mary Hopkins sang, Those were the days...The tab wants customers to bet with them so why dont they have a stand at all meetings giving fixed odds i and incentives instead of sitting in a control room cutting bets. Maybe no one has a clue how to price markets??

bookielover

Agree Sonny.

Not only the TAB which HAS had a stand at Flemington for the 4 days of the Flemington Cup Carnival, but the Corporates as well.

Matt Tripp from Crown Bet had one in the last two years, but I reckon they should all be forced to have a representative, i.e. a stand at every track they want to operate on.

sonny

I agree . Is it too hard to endorse this or has the ship sailed. When the Corps came they should have welcomed them rather than push them away..More competition the better.

Chariotsonfire

The cancellation of bets was mentioned on another thread and it reminded me why the rules were change some years ago. No names no pack drill.

1990s GP mid week meeting with three or four bookies and no other fixed odds and only WA TAB dividends. The tote dividends were never available until after correct weight on the previous race.

I had priced Horse A at 4/6 and Horse B at 5/2 in a race with little depth

Tote prices come up with Horse A at $5 and Horse B at $1,50. Slightly influenced by the tote prices I have opened Horse A at Evens and Horse B at 7/4. A prominent punter of that era took all he even money he could when bookies opened betting.

Lo and behold some five minutes later the tote prices now showed Horse A $1.50 and Horse B $5 but the drama continued on the track.

The heavily backed favourite broke on the first turn and fell to the track.  The trainer/driver made only a token attempt to get the horse to its feet and the race was called off with the horse being subject to a vet inspection. The trainer/driver couldn't get the horse off the track quickly enough never to return. Horse scratched with all bets refunded and race rerun.

At my request the stewards inquired into the dramatic tote fluctuations and it was discovered that the same punter who backed horse A had placed a $2k bet on Horse B prior to the dividends being displayed. After he backed Horse A he then cancelled the $2k bet on Horse B. 

A new rule was subsequently introduced that any cancellations had to take place within one minute of the bet being placed.

The punter was:

Resourceful - definitely

Devious - definitely

Fraudulent - subject to legal interpretation but probably not as the bookies were not forced to put up a particular price.

Offthebit

Would that very punter no longer be with us? Maybe passed 4-5 years ago. I won't name him through fear of being wrong. But if its the punter i think you are talking about i think he used that trick of tote manipulation many many times. To the point where lucky kalaf barred him from betting with him. Because as we all know, lucky had no idea about form and would only put prices up according to the tote or what his fellow bookmakers were quoting. 

You called it devious.....some would call it clever. He broke no rules!!!

Keep those kinds of stories coming chariots, i find them very interesting. Great insight into the old bookmakers ring of GP

Chariotsonfire

You are on the right tram OTB.

Markovina

Hey Chariots i can remember many many years ago at GP - you were fielding - and there was this punter bloke  - i didnt know who it was -but you would see him as a regular their - a bloke about 35 to 40 tops - not smartly dressed - runners or sandshoes on - he looked Lebanese or Maltese

Anyhow i think he must have bet  with you at times on credit - because he came up to your stand and said i will have such and such to such and such - however his credit must have expired - because you said to him - not in a nasty way - but a frank sort of way - your getting nothing to nothing - i can remember having a little chuckle when you said that

Did you use that phrase often

Moonraker

Sounds like who you are describing is the penguin?

curmudgeon

Curious codependency relationship between bookie and inveterate punter from my observations over the years. Ruthless camaraderie reminiscent of a dance with cobras  :D Chariots ?