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GP- 7/6 4yo & 5yo Westbred Mares Pace Night

Harness & Greyhounds

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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    2,966 posts

    Gilga - of course it should go to the next WA meeting or next Friday night but no - Tabcorp over east control it - and they fair dinkum have no idea.

    See tonight at melton ten races have a jackpot component in the first fours of 3.225,and one of 7,237.....would like to know where the initial money come from, or is it in house decision to stimulating t/over.. which I would like to see take place last three races at g.p on a Friday night first four betting .


    They have had those jackpots for at least the last couple of weeks.

    Make R5 at GP every Friday jackpot race on the Quad and First Four with races 5-8 the best four of the night and you are guaranteed to grow turnover.

    Similar reinstate the last local gallops race FF jackpot.
  • AllthewayAlltheway Posts: 1
    Wow , getthechange .
    When such system was being put together was it discussed who is better off under this new system or would it attract horses from other states whose owners would see advantages for participants and send horses here to take advantage off , I’d say not because there is no advantages .
    I see horses advertised on harness trader that are c1 everywhere but come here with Hwoe 17/18000 so they go up 2/3 grades to cross the Nullarbor ?
    You see c5 m0 racing and advertised on trading ring from melb that traditionally do good jobs in wa but now they come here over 40k plus so we don’t buy them .
    We see elequent mach story that snr mentioned on radio a horse everyone in the industry would love and a horse not many off us would ever get but under the new system he breaks even unless sold .
    In the last era of harness racing I don’t know of one person who has made money , maybe ppl with property but not from owning , training , driving of horses and that was with a system that gave no penalty to 2yr olds and 2 free wins to 3 yr olds now there is no free win or incentive for a breeder or owner/ trainer to Do this .
    To go against an Australia wide system surely there was a discussion that was centred on making it better for participants

    Glen likes this post.

  • tonytony    1,800 posts
    First 4 jackpots go to the next race except for the last where tabcorp decide where to go sometime.
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    2,966 posts
    tony said:

    First 4 jackpots go to the next race except for the last where tabcorp decide where to go sometime.




    Yeah it was the quad carryover that I didnt know where it went. Was a carryover for the last race FF.

    Does an early quad carryover go in to the main quad?

    Surely it makes sense for every code in every state to have set races and race days for the jackpots for punters on that code to target them?
  • Ridersonthestorm33Ridersonthestorm33    8,663 posts
    edited June 8
    Gilga - you can be 101% assured - any Perth Quaddie Jackpots are not allocated to the next WA meeting anywhere. Tabcorp hold onto the money to use at a further date.

    When and where - we are never told.

    It's pretty simple - if any jackpot component in a GP Quaddie on a Friday night - you either allocate to the next country meeting ( Saturday GP or country ) or Pinjarra Monday or GP the following Friday night.

    They don't do that - they hold onto it and add it who knows where ??

    VillageKid likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    1,217 posts
    Ideal  liner still wins that race from gate 9 at 1.05  never going to get away from the reality a half-dozen horses barring injury will progress through any system be ratings or hwoe in a hurry in most seasons.and will be odds-on.

    What barrier would have ideal liner have drawn under n.r. and what barrier  would he have drawn under p.b.d. brave man to say it would've altered the result

    Don't think the system has failed just barney as first preference,. there was not enough horses at narrogin,looks like the stand aren't his go.which could have been 2nd option?.

    The punter is the main player in all of this..United you stand Divide you fall.

    Father was in new guinea a commando The first, causalty they had was a fella called Norm Le Brun.VFL, footballer who had played for Collingwood,Essendon Carlton,South Melbourne was killed by a wrong call, lookout, instead of down...….,Surely we can work out what system is better for Australian Harness,...…Have served on a harness committee the biggest wingers have always being the top trainers.
  • getthechangegetthechange    80 posts

    selecting fields - handicappers discretion - HWOE - FSP

    not advocating for one of the above - just highlighting their shortcomings

    Handicappers discretion - Budd Sidewinder - Cut Above

    HWOE - Ideal Liner

    FSP -

    Dwayne wins maiden = 10 points

    Hy Leexciting wins HWOE LT $40,000 = 10 points

    Saving Grace runs 4th in Fremantle Cup = 10 points

     

  • getthechangegetthechange    80 posts
    Alltheway said:

    Wow , getthechange .
    When such system was being put together was it discussed who is better off under this new system or would it attract horses from other states whose owners would see advantages for participants and send horses here to take advantage off , I’d say not because there is no advantages .
    I see horses advertised on harness trader that are c1 everywhere but come here with Hwoe 17/18000 so they go up 2/3 grades to cross the Nullarbor ?
    You see c5 m0 racing and advertised on trading ring from melb that traditionally do good jobs in wa but now they come here over 40k plus so we don’t buy them .
    We see elequent mach story that snr mentioned on radio a horse everyone in the industry would love and a horse not many off us would ever get but under the new system he breaks even unless sold .
    In the last era of harness racing I don’t know of one person who has made money , maybe ppl with property but not from owning , training , driving of horses and that was with a system that gave no penalty to 2yr olds and 2 free wins to 3 yr olds now there is no free win or incentive for a breeder or owner/ trainer to Do this .
    To go against an Australia wide system surely there was a discussion that was centred on making it better for participants



    Hi Alltheway

    the following is an endeavour to explain some of the philosophy behind the WA system. 

    I was born into a harness racing family and never questioned the effects of non penalty races until I went to a wedding in the late 1980s and was seated at the same table as Ken Hill the then turf club handicapper. During the course of the night I mentioned non penalty races and he was aghast and said something to the effect of no wonder harness racing isn't going well. I argued that it allowed horses to win more races and he told me I was wrong and challenged me to prove him wrong. It was like being that what I thought was black was actually white when every set of figures I did proved that whilst it allowed those that had won to indeed win more races it also significantly reduced the earnings and number of individual winners and slowed the progress from the non winners in that age group.

    When the definition of handicapping is considered it isn't surprising that bookmakers and punters had 3yo horses marked at short odds in 2:28(C0) class races after they had won two 3yo races

    The definition of handicapping is in order to equalise an

    Artificial advantage is given to the supposedly inferior contestant

    or an

    artificial disadvantage is given to the supposedly superior contestant

    In harness racing we had an anti handicapping system as it gave the advantage to the 2yo and 3yo winners making it harder for the non winners or lesser winners in that group to have success for their connections

    For about 50 years it has been said that non penalty races are an incentive to breed and race young horses but foal numbers have continued to fall throughout that time along with participation levels.

    Change needed to happen

    Whilst I view it from a different perspective and will continue to put that perspective forward it is also clear that others on PTT have similar views to yourself

    Non penalty races under WA system

    HWOE - The 2yo and 3yo winners need to take lifetime penalties and be moved away from the lesser horses but it was also deemed that they shouldn't take full penalties.

    2yos take 25% of their Win $ forward which in effect means they have to win four country races to take one full time penalty

    3yos take 75% of their Win $ forward which in effect means every 4th win has totalled one non penalty

    Eloquent Mach - HWOE $41,789 is where I would expect him to be for a winner of an $18,000 3yo metro race - $25,000 Battle of Bunbury and $50,000 Western Gateway

    He can still win four or five races before he is in fast class - if he struggles before then he can race in L5$ LT races - If he gets to fast class and doesn't  win for five starts there then he can drop back to L5$ LT $30,000 races - under the MCR he would have needed 10 starts to drop back

    have run out of time for today



    Glen dislikes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,044 posts
    Not really into the 2 systems - but i did hear Luke Humphreys ( Mildura Trots caller ) before one of the races last Thurs night - and he said the new system comes in on the 1st July - and he gave a few examples in the upcoming race - this horse would have a 70 rating etc

    I dont care what anyone says - i think 2 and 3 year old races are a free hit ( for Aust bred horses ) you can win as many as you like of those - i gave the example of Nikalong Shadow - 10 2year old wins and then 10 3 year old wins -and there are no dollars carried forward - nothing - thats the incentive for people to put their hand in their pocket and buy local stock

    Just dont allow 3 year olds to run in open age races - they must only race in 3 year old races - and i dont care how much they have won - they start off as 4 years in Beginners - and then race through the grades

    Youve got to have incentives - i read about a young Tasmanian driver - Jack Laugher who is a pretty good driver - and he said he had no option but to go to Victoria - because in Tassie you lose your concession very quickly - where as in Vic a junior driver can drive up to 50 wins each year for 5 years - before you lose your concession - thats the example of a good incentive

    Glen, Kane_26, Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • GlenGlen    26 posts
    Alltheway said:

    Wow , getthechange .
    When such system was being put together was it discussed who is better off under this new system or would it attract horses from other states whose owners would see advantages for participants and send horses here to take advantage off , I’d say not because there is no advantages .
    I see horses advertised on harness trader that are c1 everywhere but come here with Hwoe 17/18000 so they go up 2/3 grades to cross the Nullarbor ?
    You see c5 m0 racing and advertised on trading ring from melb that traditionally do good jobs in wa but now they come here over 40k plus so we don’t buy them .
    We see elequent mach story that snr mentioned on radio a horse everyone in the industry would love and a horse not many off us would ever get but under the new system he breaks even unless sold .
    In the last era of harness racing I don’t know of one person who has made money , maybe ppl with property but not from owning , training , driving of horses and that was with a system that gave no penalty to 2yr olds and 2 free wins to 3 yr olds now there is no free win or incentive for a breeder or owner/ trainer to Do this .
    To go against an Australia wide system surely there was a discussion that was centred on making it better for participants



    Hi Alltheway

    the following is an endeavour to explain some of the philosophy behind the WA system. 

    I was born into a harness racing family and never questioned the effects of non penalty races until I went to a wedding in the late 1980s and was seated at the same table as Ken Hill the then turf club handicapper. During the course of the night I mentioned non penalty races and he was aghast and said something to the effect of no wonder harness racing isn't going well. I argued that it allowed horses to win more races and he told me I was wrong and challenged me to prove him wrong. It was like being that what I thought was black was actually white when every set of figures I did proved that whilst it allowed those that had won to indeed win more races it also significantly reduced the earnings and number of individual winners and slowed the progress from the non winners in that age group.

    When the definition of handicapping is considered it isn't surprising that bookmakers and punters had 3yo horses marked at short odds in 2:28(C0) class races after they had won two 3yo races

    The definition of handicapping is in order to equalise an

    Artificial advantage is given to the supposedly inferior contestant

    or an

    artificial disadvantage is given to the supposedly superior contestant

    In harness racing we had an anti handicapping system as it gave the advantage to the 2yo and 3yo winners making it harder for the non winners or lesser winners in that group to have success for their connections

    For about 50 years it has been said that non penalty races are an incentive to breed and race young horses but foal numbers have continued to fall throughout that time along with participation levels.

    Change needed to happen

    Whilst I view it from a different perspective and will continue to put that perspective forward it is also clear that others on PTT have similar views to yourself

    Non penalty races under WA system

    HWOE - The 2yo and 3yo winners need to take lifetime penalties and be moved away from the lesser horses but it was also deemed that they shouldn't take full penalties.

    2yos take 25% of their Win $ forward which in effect means they have to win four country races to take one full time penalty

    3yos take 75% of their Win $ forward which in effect means every 4th win has totalled one non penalty

    Eloquent Mach - HWOE $41,789 is where I would expect him to be for a winner of an $18,000 3yo metro race - $25,000 Battle of Bunbury and $50,000 Western Gateway

    He can still win four or five races before he is in fast class - if he struggles before then he can race in L5$ LT races - If he gets to fast class and doesn't  win for five starts there then he can drop back to L5$ LT $30,000 races - under the MCR he would have needed 10 starts to drop back

    have run out of time for today




    Chariotsonfire likes this post.

  • GlenGlen    26 posts
    Perfect example of Rwwa,s response these days, ran out of time today. Hahahaha pathetic!!!
  • sonnysonny    606 posts
    A bit rough Glen ..

    JayJay likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    5,050 posts
    edited June 9
    That wasn't a RWWA response, that was a personal view of Getthechange as I understand things, and although I don't agree with him on many things, he is contributing to the discussion as a private citizen, having provided voluntary input into the new model. So yes, very rough. I don't think RWWA have ever officially provided input or participated to this forum or to this change  in any official way.

    sonny likes this post.

  • sonnysonny    606 posts
    I agree with you JJ We need discussion and its great to see passionate opinions and that's great .We don't have to agree but put forward a good argument. Keep it coming GTC ..and others..

    Gilgamesh, VillageKid likes this post.

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