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7-30 Report - What do we make of it?

West Australian Racing
Whew! Pretty damning. WA came out clean. If you give/sell a retired/no good racehorse to a good home and those “second” owners say we don’t need that anywhere so let’s sell it to the “doggers” is that the Racing Authorities responsibility?

What will be the public’s reaction be to all this??

Comments

  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    10,235 posts
    I'm only half way through it, but personally I think it's pretty bad. What they are showing apparently shouldn't be happening. The evidence though is quite clear.

    The industry needs to do more. More though means costs passed on to trainers, then owners, eventually making the sport inaccessible to most. Not sure what the solution is, less horses bred? Tougher regulations? Horses are chipped, surely they require tracking at every point in their life till the end?

    Maybe their needs to be an industry supplied abbatoir/end of life service because what they show on the report this evening is some disgusting humans working in these places.
  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    10,235 posts
    Watched the rest.

    Disgusted and upset. Absolutely horrible. VLandys has come out a huge dill. The industry will be getting smashed over this. And fair enough, it's not good enough.

    Ridersonthestorm33, jum likes this post.

  • NgawyniNgawyni    738 posts
    edited October 2019
    Agree. Just watched it by myself on i-view. Glad the family didn't see it though I've no doubt my daughter will soon enough and then I'll have to defend my involvement in racing again. 

    Good on the ABC for exposing it. No sensationalism, just facts and evidence. Nowhere for the industry to hide.  

    Up to the regulators now to come down hard on those involved. If the use or possession of a jigger equates to a 4 year ban, how about a life ban from the industry for knowingly sending a racehorse to a knackery or abattoir. That would often be difficult to prove, so perhaps there should also be laws banning knackeries and abattoirs from taking thoroughbreds and standardbreds. 

    I can't agree with the idea of an industry supplied abattoir. Killing them nicely shouldn't be the answer. If you own a racehorse or a share in a racehorse you should accept the responsibility of having to look after the horse post racing until it can be rehomed (including the cost of reeducation if necessary). That should be factored in as part of the cost of owning a racehorse. If any owner thinks a racehorse or share in a racehorse is something they can conveniently dispose of when its no longer winning or worth breeding from, they should rethink their involvement.
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,660 posts
    Distance to Qld is probably the thing that saved WA from being a part of the story.
  • RodentRodent    7,024 posts
    I haven't seen it. I've only owned 1 horse but when he finished, I paid for him to be floated from Brisbane to Sydney where I had found a home for him at Malabar riding school.
    Having said that, I am not opposed in principle to a horse being humanely destroyed at an abbatoir.
    I think it's a personal choice. Some people see horses as livestock and some of us get much more sentimentally involved.
  • paraleticparaletic    3,750 posts
    We would all love to see our ex racers go onto equestrian or show jumping but the elephant in the room for me is not all horses can be re-homed. Some horses are actually lunatics, i couldnt with a clear conscience give a lunatic horse to teenage girl and risk her getting killed. In saying that, i wouldnt take it to the knackery either but we all cant live in this fairytale world where every horse becomes a show jumper. I think authorities need to set up a farm where retired horses go and see out their life.

    spinking, jum likes this post.

  • spinkingspinking    3,737 posts
    I didnt see the show last night. But if i am correct i think this show may have aired before. If that is right it would not surprise me that the ABC put it to air on the eve of the richest weekend in Australian racing and the spring carnival. Now more than ever in the history of Australian racing has the welfare of the horse been paramount. Owners now have to send racing Australia a form declaring the retirement of a racehorse and its intended destination this apparently helps in the tracking of the horse after retirement.  RWWA do a lot now days in the rehoming of retired horses and i think they even employ a person who looks after this role. I am not condoning the slaughter of horses so please dont take it that way , but some horses do have a nasty streak and it would be irresponsable to give this type of horse away to a unsuspecting rider on that basis. Some times the old adage you have to be cruel to be kind applies, there is nothing more heartbreaking than to give a horse away to a family who tell you little Johny or Jenny is going to look after them ride groom and feed them . Only to see the poor animal 12 months later standing in a paddick becuase it cant walk from having overgrown hoofes it ribs sticking through its skin. All becuase the person who had the best intentions in the world lost interset. I actually heard of a trainer who got fined from the RSPCA becuase of this situation , even though he had given the horse away to some well intended family and though he hadnt seen the horse  since giving it away they said he was still the registerd owner so he had to take responsability
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,660 posts
    Brand new report with footage shot in the last 10 months. This is the wake of Racing NSW declaring new regulations for the industry but then obviously not policing their enforcement. The window dressing was just that. Twitter and Facebook are in uproar over this and the more than 90% of Australia that has no interest in Racing outside of the Melbourne Spring Carnival is horrified by this reporting.

    H-BOMBER likes this post.

  • RodentRodent    7,024 posts
    I just saw the vision. Very disturbing but I see it as an abattoir issue. You can't have cruel and inhumane people working in those jobs.
     Healthy dogs and cats are put down every day. Should we ban the ownership of dogs and cats?

    therealkramer, TheDiva, silky likes this post.

  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    The first 5 mins of viewing I'll admit I felt sick and thought I can't be a part of this industry any more.

    However............. animals being slaughtered is unfortunately (for the animals) a part of life.
    The most up in arms are the animal lovers, who generally have pets - and I'll bet their pets don't live on tofu.

    So it occurred to me that the issue here isn't the racing industry (or any other industry providing animals to), but rather these backyard, chop shop abattoirs.
    I can't understand how the RSPCA can be all over you because a tree in a horses paddock isn't regarded as big enough to provide sufficient shade, yet they do nothing re the way these animals are treated at these facilities (prior to slaughter even I mean).

    From the racing industry side, we need to ensure that any horses that do end up in that direction (and that must be kept to a minimum) are dealt with humanely (eg sorry to say it......green needle).
    Simple answer (for racing industry) surely is for the governments (and RSPCA) to step in and either shut down or ban those slaughter houses completely, or make it illegal for registered animals to be accepted in those facilities.
    As I say though - the issue is bigger than the racing industry's alone.

    TheDiva, silky, LuckyLongshots likes this post.

  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    edited October 2019
    On that point - why didn't the article interview the RSPCA ?

    Also on appearances I am proud that we here in WA have done a lot more about the issue than NSW.
    Their whole "money" focus is starting to come back to bite them.
  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts

    Distance to Qld is probably the thing that saved WA from being a part of the story.

    Yes, no one is going to spend $2,000 transporting a $300 (slaughter value) horse.
    Madness to even suggest it happens.
  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    10,235 posts
    Exactly right. We who actually participate in the sport as punters, owners, breeders and trainers are majority horrified, imagine how the non participating public feel.

    All these horses are micro chipped. True regulation would see them scanned when ever they get on a truck and go somewhere, race and spell. I should be able to print out a full movement history with time/date stamps. That is complete transparency. It will cost more. It will require more done by participants. As I said previously though, these regulations and actions costs will transfer to the owners, which will make ownership out of reach for the majority of us.

    I don't have an issue with meat trade, if there is a market for it, then that is fine. But the animals for meat shouldn't be ex race horses. No way.

    What levy's are currently in place for breeders to breed horse for racing? If a horse is bred for racing then there should be a "end of racing" levy attached to it. Held by an independent body much like when a bond is held when renting. Again, more costs, but transparency and preventive action, not reactionary.

    As an owner I will be doing more at the retirement stage, it should be our responsibility with guidance from trainers as to what can be possible after racing. Previously I've left the re homing to those in a better position and knowledge to do this, and trust this, however I've failed in following these re homings up to make sure. Any one who owns a horse should be able to say with 100% certainty what happens to there horse when it stops racing. I can't. And that is a problem.

    I think a few trainers might be getting calls today to just reinforce there stances as to the practices of disposal/retirement. In my opinion, there is a whole new part of the industry that can be created to ensure that everything done is in the best interests if the animal.

    Uttsy, Ngawyni likes this post.

  • RodentRodent    7,024 posts
    The cruelty is at the abattoir. They need to be more heavily regulated and brought into the 21st century. The cost of pet food may need to increase in order to finance the upgrade required. I'm sure animal lovers would gladly pay more for their pet's food if it means an end to 3rd world abattoirs employing bogans who get off on abusing animals.
  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    10,235 posts
    On the money mate, these people are filth

    Ridersonthestorm33, jum likes this post.

  • RodentRodent    7,024 posts
    No offence to abattoir workers in general but the one abattoir I spent time at as a vet student seemed to have half the staff made up of blokes on parole.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,888 posts
    I didnt see the vision i want to emphasise that  - if it was cruelty - then that is horrendous - and maybe thats where they should be focussing on

    When i lived in Tassie  on acres a decade and a half ago- i had an old farmer as a neighbour - and we got talking - and he told me  as a young bloke - he had to slit - cut the throats of young lambs that was his job  ( he must have been in some abbatoir ) and he said to me it distressed him greatly

    So cattle and sheep are slaughtered - so with the horses i mean what do you do  - yes try alot harder  to get good homes for them post racing - or reduce the numbers bred - but your still going to have excess - and what do you do with them - and as a couple of posters have mentioned - some horses are evil - put their feed in their bin - while  their still in the box - if your young and inexpierenced you will only do that once in your life .
  • UttsyUttsy    129 posts
    Absolutely horrifying report, everyone involved should be absolutely ashamed. But thats whats happened in a lot of areas, its not about the horse anymore, its all about money. Participants treat them like a piece of meat, thrown away when they cant make anymore money out of them.

    Its true not all horses can be re-homed for individual reasons, but surely setting up a farm for the ones that cant be re-homed cant be that hard. Obviously will be capital intensive, where does that money come from? Money from each races goes to 'Jockey Welfare' cant be that hard to do the same for 'Horse Welfare'. 

    On another note, of the ones that cant be re-homed, would absolutely love to see an audit process set up to see where a lot of these horses come from, training wise that is. Sure there are ones that just naturally cant be placed, but without a doubt thered be plenty that are made that way. 
  • RodentRodent    7,024 posts
    A farm for the ones that can't be rehomed? Who will provide their veterinary care in perpetuity? It is a pipe dream. Domestic animals are bred for a purpose. Companion animals, meat producers, milk producers etc.
     Racehorses are bred primarily for entertainment but they have residual value as breeders or pleasure horses or dare I say it, as meat. 
     Every racehorse used as a source of meat is one less animal bred elsewhere chomping on valuable pasture with its own carbon footprint.
     As noble as the gesture may be, attempting to fund a refuge for unwanted racehorses is not a great use of limited resources. All you're doing is prolonging the life of a horse nobody wants at great expense and sending some other animal to the abattoir in its place.
     We need to avoid cruelty. Sometimes keeping an unwanted animal alive is the cruellest thing to do.
     We should also avoid waste. Unwanted horses can be put to good use. I would hate to see unattended horses in poor condition dying a slow and painful death only to end up in landfill.

    silky, Manchild, detonator likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,786 posts
    Won't watch it again,there seem to be couple of those abattoir workers,how they went about there business, killing a human would be easy,for them I, look at them as having ivan milat tendencies.glad its only a minute % of the population that can do that sort or work.

    Never  try and defend the indefensible-----but surely if they filmed for two years,the reporters have blood on there hands could have blowin the whistle 4,000-- 8,000  horses ago by there numbers.
  • UttsyUttsy    129 posts
    Unfortunately Rodent, Id imagine that that attitude, while mostly logical, is what isnt sustainable in todays society.
    The uproar against racing will only get louder and louder if the attitude towards horses is breed them, race them, kill them and sell them as meat.
    Horses are likened more to pets than as stock to society, they have names and followings and people develop attachments to them. People liken it to selling their pet to an abattoir if they no longer have a use for them. Its unrelateable to main stream society these days.
    I also dont see setting up a place for unrehomable horses that far fetched. Funding would be taken out of already available resources so no further needs to be found. No idea what goes into the Jockey Welfare fund each year, but with the amount of races on, I dare say its a fair amount. Bit of capital to set up, yeah no doubt. If done properly, could be an entire new industry in itself.
    Another point, who decides if the horse is rehomeable or not? We're working on the assumption that every available effort was made, more than likely thats not remotely the case.

    Ngawyni likes this post.

  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    edited October 2019
    From a Racing point of view.

    Unconsidered comment (idea) - the racing industry needs to ask the governments (be state matter) to step in and make it illegal for licensed / registered animals to be processed in (whatever description) abattoirs.
    That puts a stop to the topic in question.

    Thereafter, unfortunately a small number of animals will be still be euthanised (as per any animal / breed), but it should then be illegal to do so other than via (insert definition) humane processes (eg by a vet).
    Albeit it every endeavor should be taken in the first instance to avoid even that.

    Uttsy likes this post.

  • TheDivaTheDiva    13,246 posts
    Rodent nailed it... why do we conveniently disregard the fact that humans also breed cows, sheep, chickens etc for pleasure (ie food)... just the same way that we do horses (there are many ways we enjoy them... including eating them and feeding them to our pets).
    The racing industry will cop it over this... but the fact is this is what the human race does. 
    Agree with Rodent, we need to do it humanely and with as little as possibly waste. 

    Having said that... I have only ever put one horse down as his quality of life was going to be poor because of Laminitis. All of the rest I have found homes for.

    It is impossible to track them after that point. I dont know if they have ended up in 3-4 different hands and finally ended up at the knackery as a healthy horse... that would be a real shame. All I know is that most of them were snapped up by track riders, stable hands and "horse people" who really wanted them for their own pleasure after racing. 

    silky, detonator likes this post.

  • TheDivaTheDiva    13,246 posts
    Let me add.. there is no defense for being so cruel to a living animal, whether it be chicken, rabbit, horse, shark or wombat... 

    Ridersonthestorm33, detonator likes this post.

  • UttsyUttsy    129 posts
    Diva I think if thats you're argument that you're going to take to society and say all is well, you're all just being hypocritical, the racing industry will suffer a quick death.
    Its easy to how society can be hypocritical in this situation. You dont see cows up for slaughter that you've previously seen on tv, they dont have names, they dont have or ever have had any other purpose than to be meat. 
    Society struggles with understanding that an animal that can be so once loved, be named, have a purpose, be followed, can just be thrown out in the bin because they dont want to spend money to look after it. In particular after spending so much money on it in the first place. 
    The fact they were treated cruelly on the report is an entirely different issue together, one that no one in their right mind could possibly ever justify.

    Desperado likes this post.

  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,660 posts
    If Seaworld started retiring their dolphins and shortly afterwards those same creatures were taken out of the pools and beaten for not falling into the death line, the joint would be screamed down and most likely closed within hours.

    There are not many traveling circuses in Australia anymore, but what if they started shooting old lions that had lived past their collective use by date ? You don't think the screams would be deafening ?

    Same for me and Racing. This is just another issue that has been poorly handled by those placed in charge and allowed to happen. Peter V'Landys and Racing NSW are at fault here, because they came up with the pacifying policy then failed to police it. Now all hell will break loose as a result and new draconian measures will be announced shortly following yet more investigations and money being spent that surely would have been better spent on the retiring horses in the first place.

    Idiots run our sport, we shouldn't be surprised by anything that gets shown on the ABC.

    Uttsy likes this post.

  • TheDivaTheDiva    13,246 posts
    You are right on one thing, society is being extremely hypocritical...  but that might be impossible for them to overcome....otherwise we'd all be vegans. 
    Society is hypocritical about a lot of things... including the classification of drugs... 
    some are ok... because governments make lots of money out of them... others... no good (even though they are less harmful). Go figure... 

    Its the fact people make money out of them... then just discard them. But thats being hypocritical too. There is massive money being made out of the lamb and beef industries and people discard their unwanted dogs, cats and fish every day. 

    I found it incredible that one of the authorities they spoke to from NSW (cant remember who) was horrified that horse was sold as pet meat... was he for real? Kangaroo is ok... horse is not ok? ok....

    Finally Uttsy... if there was a legit industry created to breed thoroughbreds.. not for racing... but for pet food... and they werent named or raced... just slaughtered humanely for pet food and human consumption... would that be ok? I dont think so... I think we are discriminating between which animals are ok to raise and eat and which are not. 

    and correct, the cruelty issue is completely separate and not under question. 

    Kane_26 likes this post.

  • UttsyUttsy    129 posts
    Society is hypocritical to its core, thats an accepted part of my point.
    If the industry takes a logical approach mentioned in the replies on this thread, society will, with absolute certainty, end up turning against racing completely. 
    You're correct in regards to an industry where horses were solely bred for consumption and I understand your point. Its probably also the point I was trying to make earlier without realising. 
    Humans have a relationship with horses, such as pets, that goes back for thousands of years. If someone in Australia tried to industrialise dogs for the sole purpose of consumption there would be the same uproar. So yes, there is a discrimination against certain animals in regards to consumption, but the important thing to accept is that discrimination will never change.
    Its that emotion to which is the core of this argument. Society will absolutely not accept the an industry which works in this fashion. Trying to defend against it by defining hypocrisies or logic wont work, whether its right or wrong.
    Which leaves, what is the solution? An actual organised effort to change the end result for thousands of horses each year is probably all anyone is asking for. Ideally not a huge ask for an industry with so much money flying around in it.
  • TheDivaTheDiva    13,246 posts
    agree with all of that. 
    coming down on the abbatoirs like a tonne of bricks is the starting point. 

    The industry began the process of "tracking horses" a few years back. I remember receiving a list of emails asking me where all my retired horses had gone over the last 6-7 years. This was just lip service however... and in any case this is not the way to track them. I can give a horse away to a stable hand who fell in love with the horse when it was racing... but then I have no control over what that person does with it when she is finished with it... or the person she sells it to... or the person after that. 
    Simply asking for a declaration as to "how did you dispose of the horse" is not enough to ensure the lifetime welfare of a horse (if thats what they decide they want to do).  

    I think anything you do however, is going to dramatically increase the cost of racing, breeding and owning horses... which is going to be detrimental to the industry. ie the example above where there is a "retirement levy" on each horse so that there are funds available to keep the horse in its retirement. So... maybe this is the beginning of the end... 

    Personally, ive never had a problem finding homes for horses after their racing and like most things.. its the bad eggs (minority) in the industry that make the rest of us look bad (as in the greyhounds a few years back). 

    Uttsy likes this post.

  • UttsyUttsy    129 posts
    Yeah totally agree with all of that.
    Its all lip service and giving the perception of doing something and that there is a consequence if something is done wrong. But of course we all know it hasnt remotely worked like that.
    I dont think anybody wants to increase the costs of racing, or see these costs past onto the owners and breeders. Most of those are doing it tough as it is. But seeing that every race contributes to the welfare of Jockeys, it would make sense that theres something similar for horses. You'd be hard pressed to get anyone to not agree with that, the winners basically pay for it.
    Pretty sure they're also raising prize money over here again soon? Its amazing, the moneys never been better, but that also says theres room to spare money for things as important as this.
    Totally agree on the last point, its always the minority that make everyone else look bad. But that to me relates to one of the biggest issues in racing in general to me. You can get caught mistreating your horses, cheating etc etc. They give you a **** ant fine or suspension and then are welcomed back with open arms by everybody.
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