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Mount Eden Sprint 16/10

Harness & Greyhounds
Chicago Bull draws 1, Shockwave draws 2..  I can here the presses warming up down at the West Australian.....or perhaps a novice for non city winners at at Barcoo may take precedence.. Nonetheless, a mouth watering clash for the 150 or so spectators this Friday night.
+1 -1

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Comments

  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    2,002 posts
    Would be much more exciting if they had drawn 8 and 9.
  • freodockersfreodockers    554 posts
    Good call Chariots, couldn’t agree more.

    JayJay likes this post.

  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    282 posts

    Would be much more exciting if they had drawn 8 and 9.




    Wouldn’t be if you owned either of them
  • Ivorytrunkey86Ivorytrunkey86    58 posts
    But we don’t so 8 and 9 would of been better.
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,436 posts

    Would be much more exciting if they had drawn 8 and 9.




    Wouldn’t be if you owned either of them


    Yeah giving them a tough draw is totally uncalled for I mean Chicago Bull has only accumulated 30K shy of 2 million and a poultry 220K this season.
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,436 posts
    Heaven forbid we have a feature race that has some form of handicap attached to it
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,381 posts
    JayJay said:

    Chicago Bull draws 1, Shockwave draws 2..  I can here the presses warming up down at the West Australian.....or perhaps a novice for non city winners at at Barcoo may take precedence.. Nonetheless, a mouth watering clash for the 150 or so spectators this Friday night.

    I tell you what - the Dishlickers lately are getting pretty good press coverage in The West Australian aernt they 

    Theve got their own column - On The Lure  or something - and there are quite a few paragraphs - not 4 paltry lines like the Trots 

    Hayes cousin and co - trainer - Tom someone - i must have seen his smiling face picture ( they use the same one allways  ) 47 times in the West Australian 
  • JayJayJayJay    5,852 posts
    I think RBD is the only way to go for Group 1 races, no argument there. For group 2 $50k plus races, there is also a good argument but can understand why PBD could also be strongly considered. Below Group 2, it should be PBD. Back in the day, Village Kid would have won even more stake money under a RBD regime as he regular lined up from gate 10 (I think it was when they redeveloped the track and they were using the big Cadillac mobile with one line of10 across the front) as PBD was very much in vogue.

    But I dare not mention that, as everything in the "past" is apparently nonsense, the period when all previous administrators and handicappers had their heads firmly inserted where the sun doesn't shine according to contemporary wisdom. The fact that this period coincided with patrons actually attending the race meetings is apparently of no consequence.

    With all types of variations to a theme being utilised for PBD's under the current system, below are two possible fields. The first is a PBD based purely on the HWOE, which is after all, the backbone around which the current system is based:

    1. Bletchley Park
    2. Vincenzo Perrugia
    3. Ocean Ridge
    4. Convert Denario
    5. Simba Bromac
    6. Argyle Red
    7. Shockwave
    8. Vampiro
    9. Chicago Bull

    The second is a field is assembled on PBD dollars won last 3 starts (in brackets) as has been suggested by a few posters on this forum:

    1. Argyle Red ($650)
    2. Simba Bromac ($1450)
    3. Vampiro ($8,800)
    4. Bletchley Park ($12,400)
    5. Ocean Ridge ($16,400)
    6. Vincenzo Perrugia ($24,000)
    7. Convert Denario ($34,400)
    8. Shockwave ($55,000)
    9. Chicago Bull ($72,000)

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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,436 posts
    I know which fields would create more interest and conversation around what may or may not happen leading up to the race, possibly even create some interest. Rather than, “Oh Bully is in again, I see he has 1”.
  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    282 posts
    Gilgamesh said:

    Would be much more exciting if they had drawn 8 and 9.




    Wouldn’t be if you owned either of them


    Yeah giving them a tough draw is totally uncalled for I mean Chicago Bull has only accumulated 30K shy of 2 million and a poultry 220K this season.



    He’s had his fair share of bad draws, all FFA races should be RBD and as I said bet if you owned him you wouldn’t be pushing for him to draw 9 every week
  • freodockersfreodockers    554 posts
    If only LBH was driving Vampiro.
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,436 posts

    Gilgamesh said:

    Would be much more exciting if they had drawn 8 and 9.




    Wouldn’t be if you owned either of them


    Yeah giving them a tough draw is totally uncalled for I mean Chicago Bull has only accumulated 30K shy of 2 million and a poultry 220K this season.



    He’s had his fair share of bad draws, all FFA races should be RBD and as I said bet if you owned him you wouldn’t be pushing for him to draw 9 every week
    If all FFA races were random draw then he would quickly run out of opposition (why keep your horse going around when it cant win) and therefore races to run in. So yeah if i did own him I wouldn't mind if we had to give the inferior opposition a heads up every now and then in a feature as it would actually be to my benefit.

    Not saying they should all be pref draws but nothing wrong with having the odd feature race as a pref draw as well, it would add to the spectacle and give some light at the tunnel for those that own a good horse not a great horse. After all this is his 4th 50K random draw race in a row.

    What you're saying is the equivalent of saying all open class gallops races should be set weights, plenty of handy races that are well and truly enhanced by being handicaps.

    JayJay likes this post.

  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,436 posts
    Gilgamesh said: Rocket_Reign said: Gilgamesh said: Rocket_Reign said: Chariotsonfire said:Would be much more exciting if they had drawn 8 and 9.




    Wouldn’t be if you owned either of them



    Yeah giving them a tough draw is totally uncalled for I mean Chicago Bull has only accumulated 30K shy of 2 million and a poultry 220K this season.




    He’s had his fair share of bad draws, all FFA races should be RBD and as I said bet if you owned him you wouldn’t be pushing for him to draw 9 every week

    If all FFA races were random draw then he would quickly run out of opposition (why keep your horse going around when it cant win) and therefore races to run in. So yeah if i did own him I wouldn't mind if we had to give the inferior opposition a heads up every now and then in a feature as it would actually be to my benefit.
    Not saying they should all be pref draws but nothing wrong with having the odd feature race as a pref draw as well, it would add to the spectacle and give some light at the tunnel for those that own a good horse not a great horse. After all this is his 4th 50K random draw race in a row.
    What you're saying is the equivalent of saying all open class gallops races should be set weights, plenty of handy races that are well and truly enhanced by being handicaps.

    I will follow this up with are any of us on here who follow the game
    going to bet on this race the way the field has fallen, the race is likely to be run and the odds likely to be available? I would argue strongly no.

    If under both of the options that JayJay has put fields up for would we be likely to bet? I would certainly think it would be more likely as we might be able to form an opinion that if we are correct we might get a decent reward for our effort.

    At the very least I'd be putting in a fair bit of time looking at the replays to see how I thought it might unfold and I'd hit up a couple of mates to see what they thought. I'd also be making sure I was in a position to watch the race live, I.E. generating interest which the sport is desperate for. 

    As it stands now though as I mentioned previously I've had a brief look at the field, "Hmm Bully has 1". Probably wont catch it live as away for the weekend it will probably be fast forward through the replay on my phone sat morning watching the first 10 seconds and the last 20 seconds.
  • JayJayJayJay    5,852 posts
    Spot on Gil, I have never had a horse even remotely good enough to be preferentially drawn out in gate 9 in a $50k race....but if I did, I would be more than happy for that to be the case. It would mean he was a good horse that had earned plenty on the journey through the classes......it is a handicap system we are after, not a gratuitous golden handshake to the select few that lob a champion and what we have at the moment is, in my opinion, far removed from a true handicap system. It is a disincentive to prospective owners, current breeders, owners, trainers and drivers and anyone contemplating going on course to watch competitive racing. What could potentially be a cracker of a race may well end up as a race in two with the rest of the field trying to conjure up how to run 3rd without copping a QDT. Harness doesn't have weight to utilise as a handicapping tool and in spite of some astonishing views from some in power believing that "barrier draws are not a handicapping tool", it is the only tool we have for creating competitive racing within a class.
  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    282 posts
    Gilgamesh said:

    Gilgamesh said:

    Would be much more exciting if they had drawn 8 and 9.




    Wouldn’t be if you owned either of them


    Yeah giving them a tough draw is totally uncalled for I mean Chicago Bull has only accumulated 30K shy of 2 million and a poultry 220K this season.



    He’s had his fair share of bad draws, all FFA races should be RBD and as I said bet if you owned him you wouldn’t be pushing for him to draw 9 every week
    If all FFA races were random draw then he would quickly run out of opposition (why keep your horse going around when it cant win) and therefore races to run in. So yeah if i did own him I wouldn't mind if we had to give the inferior opposition a heads up every now and then in a feature as it would actually be to my benefit.

    Not saying they should all be pref draws but nothing wrong with having the odd feature race as a pref draw as well, it would add to the spectacle and give some light at the tunnel for those that own a good horse not a great horse. After all this is his 4th 50K random draw race in a row.

    What you're saying is the equivalent of saying all open class gallops races should be set weights, plenty of handy races that are well and truly enhanced by being handicaps.



    You just hit the nail on the head... give the inferior opposition a heads up every now and then, he does when he draws bad it’s random doesn’t mean he always draws good. Why should he have to bust his ass every week from a guaranteed bad draw, there’s been a few pref draws last few months and they’re the weeks he stays home. To answer your question I’ll still be betting on the race and I doubt I’ll be a lone soldier there’s more options than just win betting
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,436 posts

    Gilgamesh said:

    Gilgamesh said:

    Would be much more exciting if they had drawn 8 and 9.




    Wouldn’t be if you owned either of them


    Yeah giving them a tough draw is totally uncalled for I mean Chicago Bull has only accumulated 30K shy of 2 million and a poultry 220K this season.



    He’s had his fair share of bad draws, all FFA races should be RBD and as I said bet if you owned him you wouldn’t be pushing for him to draw 9 every week
    If all FFA races were random draw then he would quickly run out of opposition (why keep your horse going around when it cant win) and therefore races to run in. So yeah if i did own him I wouldn't mind if we had to give the inferior opposition a heads up every now and then in a feature as it would actually be to my benefit.

    Not saying they should all be pref draws but nothing wrong with having the odd feature race as a pref draw as well, it would add to the spectacle and give some light at the tunnel for those that own a good horse not a great horse. After all this is his 4th 50K random draw race in a row.

    What you're saying is the equivalent of saying all open class gallops races should be set weights, plenty of handy races that are well and truly enhanced by being handicaps.



    You just hit the nail on the head... give the inferior opposition a heads up every now and then, he does when he draws bad it’s random doesn’t mean he always draws good. Why should he have to bust his ass every week from a guaranteed bad draw, there’s been a few pref draws last few months and they’re the weeks he stays home. To answer your question I’ll still be betting on the race and I doubt I’ll be a lone soldier there’s more options than just win betting
    Good luck to you mate, playing the novelties here and is the obvious lobs you will be getting even poorer returns than the win div as these options are regularly over bet.
  • AbbysAceAbbysAce    314 posts
    Put the Ace on Vampiro , he would clear the Bull then game on.
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,436 posts
    AbbysAce said:

    Put the Ace on Vampiro , he would clear the Bull then game on.

    AbbysAce???  :P
  • JayJayJayJay    5,852 posts
    Just out of interest, if this was a PBD based on the National Ratings system, then the filed would line up according to their NR:
    1. Argyle Red 82
    2. Simba Bromac 116
    3.Bletchley Park 118*
    4. Vincenzo Perrugia 118*
    5.Ocean Ridge 120 **
    6. Convert Denario 120**
    7. Vampiro 120**
    8. Shockwave 120**
    9. Chicago Bull 120**

    * and ** RBD to apply

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  • Ivorytrunkey86Ivorytrunkey86    58 posts
    Ocean ridge for the upset
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,381 posts
    What would be interesting re the different barrier draw scenarios put forward is the following 

    You have got the Mount Eden Sprint - 50k race 

    2 Weeks ago at Melton - you had the identical race - the Smokenup Sprint - exactly the same prizemoney 50k - top horses Ride High etc 

    Question - were they the same barrier draw conditions ?


  • JayJayJayJay    5,852 posts
    edited October 14
    Smoken Up Sprint was also a Group 2  RBD.

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  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    2,002 posts

    I promised myself that I would not enter into this argument
    but as usual I can’t help myself.

    I agree with JayJay, all Group Ones should be RBD with one
    exception. Create a point of difference between the Fremantle Cup and The
    Pacing Cup by having one as PBD.

    In this era of 90% mobile races we can group horses together
    based on handicapping conditions but once the field is assembled the only way we can
    handicap is by PBDs. The success of the PBDs is heavily reliant upon the people
    writing the conditions.

    Let’s have a look at the race in question and flip around 1
    and 2 and 8 and 9. The Bet365 market is priced to 129% and I have used the same
    percentage for the flip around market and have also added my market to 122%
    which is much more realistic given the exposed form.

                                  Bet365
    129%                                    COF
    129%            COF122%

    CB $1.40 VP $101 $101

    S $4 CD $15 $15

    SB $151 $51 $51

    OR $8.5 $11 $15

    BP $51 $31 $41

    AR $151 $201 $201



    V $8.5 $6 $6

    CD $61 S $3.4 $3.6

    vp $126 CB $1.65 $1.7

     

    Opinions will
    differ on the markets and prices generally are much more difficult to assess
    under a PBD system which is designed to create a more open race.

    Purely from a
    selfish point of view I have little personal interest in what system we use as
    I no longer race horses and if I cannot find value in the win market I turn
    to the place market based on my rather flaky speed maps. I bet exclusively on
    WA harness meetings but do not bet on trotters.

    My concern from
    an industry point of view is if we are still losing ground on the gallops and
    greyhounds we have little chance of protecting what we have and we may be consigned to racing for ribbons.

    More owners
    own average horses compared to those that own the real good ones.





    The synonym “if
    it ain’t broke don’t fix it seems to have morphed into “if it is not working
    don’t try to rectify it”.

    Patrickthepirahna should be attracted to the
    blood in the water.                   

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  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    2,002 posts
    Sorry formatting went a bit haywire but you get the gist.

    Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    5,852 posts
    By no means can I guarantee the following lists are 100% accurate but conservative and pretty close and an indication of what owners of both good and average horses are thinking:

    East Coast Domiciled ex patriot WA Horses:

    Illusionation     Tuakana    Rousey    Salome Miss    No More Change   Tajie Baby    Burning Shadows   King Of Swing    Zennart    Four Starzzz Forsa    Mighty Flying Deal   Rum Delight   El Hombre    Absolution    Ardens concord   Bitcoin   Glens Of Tekoa   Prince Of Whitby    Ark   Semiramade    Dracarys    Breach The Beach   Dennis   Soho Major Player   It Aint Royal    The Glass Ceiling   Rockstar Diva  Johnnies Grange   Georgie Mae   Arthur Lowe etc.

    North American Domiciled ex patriot WA horses: (exported this season)

    Kingslayer   Mighty Santanna    She Could Be Good    Waimac Attack   Major Pocket   Crystal Sparkles   Our Corelli  Speed Man    Beltane    Ideal One   Walkinshaw   Ana Afreet   Sweet N Fast   American Colt   Macczaffair   One Off Delight    Amelias Courage    Ana Malak    Bechers Brook   Bettor Scoot   Bill Haley   Fizzing   Herrick Roosevelt   Infinite Symbol  Its Rock N Roll......and in all probability many others as it is hard to research export numbers up to date.

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  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    282 posts
    JayJay said:

    By no means can I guarantee the following lists are 100% accurate but conservative and pretty close and an indication of what owners of both good and average horses are thinking:

    East Coast Domiciled ex patriot WA Horses:

    Illusionation     Tuakana    Rousey    Salome Miss    No More Change   Tajie Baby    Burning Shadows   King Of Swing    Zennart    Four Starzzz Forsa    Mighty Flying Deal   Rum Delight   El Hombre    Absolution    Ardens concord   Bitcoin   Glens Of Tekoa   Prince Of Whitby    Ark   Semiramade    Dracarys    Breach The Beach   Dennis   Soho Major Player   It Aint Royal    The Glass Ceiling   Rockstar Diva  Johnnies Grange   Georgie Mae   Arthur Lowe etc.

    North American Domiciled ex patriot WA horses: (exported this season)

    Kingslayer   Mighty Santanna    She Could Be Good    Waimac Attack   Major Pocket   Crystal Sparkles   Our Corelli  Speed Man    Beltane    Ideal One   Walkinshaw   Ana Afreet   Sweet N Fast   American Colt   Macczaffair   One Off Delight    Amelias Courage    Ana Malak    Bechers Brook   Bettor Scoot   Bill Haley   Fizzing   Herrick Roosevelt   Infinite Symbol  Its Rock N Roll......and in all probability many others as it is hard to research export numbers up to date.



    Good it means that there’s an economy if we couldn’t sell horses there would be no point buying them in, on the flip side there’s plenty coming in to the state I’ve exported 0 and imported 3 this season as have many others
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,381 posts
    Nitro Lad is another one in NSW - it won at Canberra Monday night

    4 starts in NSW for 2 wins and 2  seconds 

    Ideal horse for over their - its honest -  you know a Tues night GP or a Sat night Bunbury type of  horse - cant win - might run  a place every 5th start or so if still in WA 

    But i think it will probably win 6-7 races in NSW  
  • savethegamesavethegame    1,832 posts
    My interest in  harness has been on the decline on a downward spiral since 88-89.---I have witnessed  a code that has been based on we eat our own, for personal achievements but even before that when harness was flying,   Have articles meetings were called by race clubs worrying sbout the fastest growing sport harness,  that could be enjoyed by everyone as a hobbyist  sport after work.-----Then along come the few that thought it was all about them,

     Things i have seen what have been detrimental to the industry.from that point in time, has put the sport on the canvass today, , and might add---- i am impressed with the geniune effort put in by the hcp. department, the changes to the westbred component of the business now but they have minmal leg room. But  the breeding industry we have to hope Bob Fowler & Kevin Charles losses are minimal as they seem to be main players  helping to reinvent  the breeding part, people around the place  are starting to put 1 or 2 mares in foal and grab others westbred horses.

    Forget about  what should be RBD. or PFD  the sport will not grow unless we can work out how to entice the punter back, the top horses still have and always will recieve the most  comments and comparisons with the few that are passionate.

    Have no doubt everyone  hopes for a chicargo bull & of cause  the top branch  should be random, but the punters go chewy on your boot as a betting medium.    It really is a hobbyist sport, probably a few too many trainers ,drivers, punters,trying to have a professional existance.


    Now for whoever's decision. it is RWWA or the Tab. please start a campaign australia wide for six weeks  promoting the favourite numbers game to sign new members,. which is a no risk,game  just a sweet  25% takeout for tab touch which indirectly would finish up as stakes.  Tab has approx 60,000 account holders, we all know tab touch, can ill afford to lose due to the commitments to the industry  stakes etc.

    But notice the pool on saturday and todays pool reach  a total of 511,732, with the take out  approx 127k. think how attractive its to old people once they grasp the concept,...surely it could be worth extra 2-3 million per year or more once its up and about aus.wide.& no risk factor.

    Probably a clause why not?

  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    2,002 posts
    The Bull already into a $1.18 with Sportsbet.

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  • freodockersfreodockers    554 posts
    In years gone by there would be 5000 going to see a horse like CHicago Bull every time he started. A bonanza for gate takings and on course turnover for the night.
    Tomorrow night lucky to be 500 probably with free entry.
    Nowadays With online betting And no crowds you have to ask what value a horse like Chicago Bull adds.
    Sad to say all he does is reduce turnover regardless of barrier draws.
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