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Aus Breeding

East Coast Racing
Precision1Precision1    550 posts
East Coast Racing
This is a topic that’s being discussed at length in the media lately so thought it’s worth bringing up here.  It’s plain to see when the first 4 past the post in a Cox plate are bred in Ireland our breeding is miles behind what they are producing.  

I’ve been thinking about why and I keep coming back to a horse called The Autumn Sun.  A horse that never won outside his own age group and when you go back through what he beat it’s very underwhelming.  Yet he has a service fee of $77,000.

Not just picking him out, any stallion that wins a Coolmoore or Guineas gets the $20 million dollar price tag.  Why don’t we demand they then prove it at weight for age to warrant those $$$.  

Not sure there’s an easy answer but clearly If we would like to see the Aussie bred horses start winning out majors again things need to change.  
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TheDiva likes this post.

Comments

  • thefalconthefalcon    20,228 posts
    you are spot on, first one that springs to mind is yes yes yes, just turned 4 and only won the everest which except for its prize money is just a saturday handicap for good horses.
    they call the guineas a "stallion making race"..thats bullshite. tell me a guineas winner who has gone on to be a successful sire...i stress the word "successful".
    we've got these studs owned by squillionaires who have these stallions who, excuse the french, root for a bloody fortune..how many mares would he cover for his exorbinant stud fee?
    yes, the autumn sun at 77k a pop, say he covered only 20 mares...go figure.
    i fear it will be a long time before an auzzie bred horse wins a major.
    ps. remember when NZ was the go?
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  • meatpiemeatpie    525 posts
    thefalcon said:

    you are spot on, first one that springs to mind is yes yes yes, just turned 4 and only won the everest which except for its prize money is just a saturday handicap for good horses.

    they call the guineas a "stallion making race"..thats bullshite. tell me a guineas winner who has gone on to be a successful sire...i stress the word "successful".
    we've got these studs owned by squillionaires who have these stallions who, excuse the french, root for a bloody fortune..how many mares would he cover for his exorbinant stud fee?
    yes, the autumn sun at 77k a pop, say he covered only 20 mares...go figure.
    i fear it will be a long time before an auzzie bred horse wins a major.
    ps. remember when NZ was the go?
    Redoute's Choice was pretty successful

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  • FlandersFlanders    1,289 posts
    Might be a topic for another thread, but I believe the NSW and VIC racing model have a bit to answer for too, they dish out Group races for fun. I reckon this has seriously blurred the lines between high-end achievers, an above-average horse and the rest. Seems there are far too many opportunities for an ok horse to win a black type race

    thefalcon likes this post.

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  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    10,438 posts
    I've thought this for ages. Too many fluff races worth millions. The biggest prizes should be for the best group 1s. Non group 1 winners can win 10 million these days. It's a joke

    Flanders likes this post.

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  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    10,438 posts
    Also, I've thought that group 1 races should only be across all age groups. It's a false economy, win a group 1 at 2 or 3yo and you've only beaten arguably the best in your age group. Sorry but that isn't "Group 1" in my book. Group 1 to me means the best of the best all aged. It's handicapped/weighted for age according.

    thefalcon, Flanders likes this post.

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  • thefalconthefalcon    20,228 posts
    well said, bomber, hit the nail right on the head.. =D>

    Flanders likes this post.

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  • NgawyniNgawyni    751 posts
    meatpie said:

    thefalcon said:

    they call the guineas a "stallion making race"..thats bullshite. tell me a guineas winner who has gone on to be a successful sire...i stress the word "successful".

    Redoute's Choice was pretty successful

    Redoute's was 1999. Lonrho was 2001. Have to go back another 30 years to Vain and Beau Sovereign. That's 4 Caulfield Guineas winners in the last 50 years who went on to become successful/champion sires. There have been a couple of other winners in that time who have been handy sires (Grosvenor, Luskin Star, Show A Heart, All Too Hard the most recent), but hardly a stallion making race. Not sure how many of the winners in the last 50 years were entires though.
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  • Precision1Precision1    550 posts
    The shape of this weekends Derby is highlighting this problem.  Sure maybe one of these horses will develop into a decent horse but gee most have done nothing to date.

    By comparison the Coolmoore looks very strong.  Nothing wrong with breading sprinters, they are trying to improve that currently in Europe, but they are doing both.  We are all eggs in one basket.

    I heard this week Camelot came to Aus as a shuttle stallion and got no support.  Irony is now Aus buyers are going to Ireland and buying his progeny at 5 times more than they could have if they bred to him here.  
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  • Precision1Precision1    550 posts
    https://www.racing.com/news/2020-10-29/news-stud-deal-struck-for-ole-kirk#/

    Add another to the list.

    As a relation to All Too Hard and Black Caviar he could well be a success at stud by the fact we don’t ensure he comes back and proves his ability against open class is the whole problem 

    TheDiva, Thunderstruck likes this post.

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  • ThunderstruckThunderstruck    7,696 posts
    Whilst your right it's the done thing nowadays most years because of the insane amount of money they generate at stud.Wont see Farnan or Wild Ruler again if they win tomorrow's Coolmore either they don't have to win in open company as you also highlighted.

    Cant see it ever changing these sires keep getting full books at a massive fee, they service 2 years worth and are probably well in the black by then and then likely get at least a 3rd year before any "dud" status is apparent.This equates to a bucketload of cash in most cases and that's what racing is all about now.

    Precision1 likes this post.

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  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    10,438 posts
    This will be unpopular, but there should be no Group 1 status for 2yo and 3yo races. The highest rating of 2 and 3yo races should be a group 2. If you want to be a 3yo group 1 winner then win it in open company, against the best.

    This would stop early retirements of horses that have beat up on inferior opposition. It would create a more elite stallion pool and actually in my opinion create better progeny. Maybe that's ignorant of a lot of other factors, but bottom line is, if group 1 wins is a measure of stallion greatness then it's completely false, because the elite status of a group 1 win is being diluted out with crappy races masquerading as a group 1.

    Precision1, thefalcon, Flanders likes this post.

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  • thefalconthefalcon    20,228 posts
    this derby run over a gruelling 2500m with horses having only a handful of starts is a big ask.
    they could be coming in like the proverbial browns cows...
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  • ThunderstruckThunderstruck    7,696 posts
    A Maddie is Born To Succeed who ran time at Wodonga..stranger things n all...

    But yes..1st to last 100 metres at least maybe 200.
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  • careycarey    6,374 posts
    Flanders said:

    Might be a topic for another thread, but I believe the NSW and VIC racing model have a bit to answer for too, they dish out Group races for fun. I reckon this has seriously blurred the lines between high-end achievers, an above-average horse and the rest. Seems there are far too many opportunities for an ok horse to win a black type race




    Very true, BUT.
    None more guilty of this than WA.
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  • ChrisChris    5,376 posts
    @carey hope you're well
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  • careycarey    6,374 posts
    Chris said:

    @carey hope you're well

    Fine thank you Chris.
    Ditto I hope.
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  • thefalconthefalcon    20,228 posts
    you can't blame the race clubs dishing out these group races, doesn't it come from the governing body in sydney?
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  • careycarey    6,374 posts
    There are the Asian ground rules.



    Basically though it's a joke, and very few(if any) WA races would fit the criteria required.
    I can distinctly remember them claiming a Perth Cup fitted the rules.
    It was probably 5 miles short of the required.
    It was using ratings of the horse far after the fact, and even then it was not high enough.
    Gamblers would call it backfitting.

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