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Melbourne Cup 3.11.2020.

East Coast Racing

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  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts

    Chris said:

    Impossible as always. Still enamored with Russian Camelot. 

    The Queen Elizabeth Stakes at Randwick next Autumn is shaping as a helluva race. Verry Elleegant, Addeyebb, Russian Camelot all look likely starters.
    I’ll be on Sir Dragonet on a usual bog track to beat them all 
    Yeah I think the track cruelled a few of the chances yesterday. I pretty much put a line thru SD & Russian Camelot as far as winning does. Racing in Sydney during Autumn is basically a rain dance and all three of those horses I named go better with the sting out of the ground. If SD aims towards that race, and you imagine he would, then a rain affected track suits him, too.
  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts

    Jamie Kah, was the ride on Prince Of Arran half a butcher job ? or just bad luck? I backed him too so I'll fence sit, however I saw Charlie Fellowes interviewed and i swear he looked dejected as in "this was his year with a better ride we win" type of look, diplomacy saw him praise the ride but I'm sure he felt with better luck/ride he beats the winner(was beaten 0.6 of a length at the line)


    If POA sits closer on top of that speed he wouldn't have finished as hard imo. Look at the time, the weight carried and to do it from the front? No excuses for those beaten. Tiger Moth had the cold sit and the 3kg weight pull couldn't sprint when needed but ground away and still nabbed 2nd. McEvoy had to break the rules to even get the horse interested.
  • ThunderstruckThunderstruck    4,565 posts
    Winner was flukey good I agree, we will NEVER actually know but am sure the trainer thinks differently.
    Hope if he is well he does come back gave horses like Surprise Baby windburn and zoomed past Cameltoe etc etc...
  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    I don't think it was a fluke at all. Superb ride and even better training effort-remember when the so-called experts used to trot out the stat about Vintage Crop being the only horse to win the cup first up in Aus?

    Voodoo likes this post.

  • ThunderstruckThunderstruck    4,565 posts
    I said the words good and effort in that sentence too mate :D it was surprising at the very least cat did zilch last year.
  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    The time run in last year's race was 7.5sec(~45len) slower, albeit on a Soft 5(v Good 3). Prince Of Arran was closest right on the line but hardly ran thru it(Twilight Payment is well in front a few lengths past the line)which dismisses the bad luck narrative. I saw the tabloids trying to blame Kah, which is pathetic. They are developing a habit of **** stirring instead of applauding deserving winners
  • detonatordetonator    2,525 posts
    edited November 2020
    detonator said:

    Disgusting ride by JMac on Joviality.

    That was a “I don’t give a f**k” ride. Should get weeks.
    Thought I would read the stewards report on the ride of JMac on Joviality.
    JMac stated he was under instructions to drop the horse out the back. Then he made the decision to supposedly look for a run on the inside with 14 horses in front of you.
    The Flemington straight is 500m+ long. He was riding the favourite and (albeit drifting fav....say no more) and elected to run up bums ???
    Nothing to see here apparently. Probably as bad a “no trier” as I have ever seen. 
    Maybe the stewards were looking after Waller ???
    Even the Racing.Com panelists were fumbling around what they wanted to say but were obviously compromised.
  • paraleticparaletic    3,750 posts
    Hi guys a bit off topic, but i remember hearing something on tv back in the day about bart cummings.
    He would say that to get a horse fit for a melb cup it needs to run in races totalling xx kms (that prep). Does anyone know what this distance was? I keep on thinking its 20kms but maybe that seems too much??
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,064 posts
    10,000 metres in around of combined race distances prior to melb. cup. 

    therealkramer, paraletic likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,064 posts
    Remmeber  Bart came out and said vintage crop was no hope on that theory----as he hadn't raced for six  weeks prior to  cup---. bingo.
  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    edited November 2020

    10,000 metres in around of combined race distances prior to melb. cup. 


    He broke his own rule with So You Think(‘10) and the horse only ran 3rd :-?
  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    edited November 2020
    @savethegame

    The Euro trainers know how to do it. Red Cadeaux when within a pimple of winning the cup. With an ounce of luck, Il Paradiso wins last year. Interestingly, the trainer of Surprise Baby looks like he's given up that minimalist appraoch

  • thefalconthefalcon    17,398 posts
    imho the baby did not have a hope in hell. how it was backed into favourite is one of lifes mysteries.

    Thunderstruck likes this post.

  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    @thefalcon Probably once the track was good it ended a few on the fancies' hopes i.e Sir Dragonet, Russian Camelot. Also you knew SB would get the trip-the other co-fav was having just its 5th start
  • PCPC    1,768 posts
    Just in - see article to link below. Bivouac given a Timeform rating of 128 for G1 VRC Classic win. Article also includes ratings for the Melbourne Cup and other races:

    https://www.racingandsports.com/news/timeform/timeform-news/2020-11-09/timeform-recap-2020-vrc-classic/531848

    therealkramer, thefalcon likes this post.

  • paraleticparaletic    3,750 posts

    10,000 metres in around of combined race distances prior to melb. cup. 


    thanks for the info. I was looking at it in regards to Surprise Baby. He ran 3,600m. I know the poms and the irish do it different but bart won 12 cups with nz and aus bred horses so it seems completely stupid to me that his method be disregarded.

    thefalcon likes this post.

  • ThunderstruckThunderstruck    4,565 posts
    Don't think he handled the fast tempo and just got outstayed maybe needs more grounding for such a test as that was or just performs better off softer tempo's.I agreed with Falc have no idea why he was so heavily backed.
    Interested to see how he goes in the Zipping and if the full Autumn program Preusker has mentioned includes taking on the elite group 1 horses at 2000/2400.
  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    Bossy is booked to ride Surprise Baby in the Zipping Classic.  :)]

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  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    edited November 2020
    paraletic said:

    10,000 metres in around of combined race distances prior to melb. cup. 


    thanks for the info. I was looking at it in regards to Surprise Baby. He ran 3,600m. I know the poms and the irish do it different but bart won 12 cups with nz and aus bred horses so it seems completely stupid to me that his method be disregarded.
    It's not disregarded. It was good enough when it was 'our cup', it's not anymore and you either evolve or perish. The Euros and Japanese have changed everything
  • ThunderstruckThunderstruck    4,565 posts

    Bossy is booked to ride Surprise Baby in the Zipping Classic.  :)]




    Can't hurt for him to go on board, don't know the circumstances was Willo punted? but Jordan Child's is yesterday's news clearly..
  • PCPC    1,768 posts

    paraletic said:

    10,000 metres in around of combined race distances prior to melb. cup. 


    thanks for the info. I was looking at it in regards to Surprise Baby. He ran 3,600m. I know the poms and the irish do it different but bart won 12 cups with nz and aus bred horses so it seems completely stupid to me that his method be disregarded.
    It's not disregarded. It was good enough when it was 'our cup', it's not anymore and you either evolve or perish. The Euros and Japanese have changed everything



    But Bart's method saw him win Cups when the internationals ran in it. The thing is that Bart's methods can work but trainers these days can't do it like him. There is a reason why these trainers now days are good to excellent and Bart was a freak.

    thefalcon likes this post.

  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    edited November 2020
    PC said:

    paraletic said:

    10,000 metres in around of combined race distances prior to melb. cup. 


    thanks for the info. I was looking at it in regards to Surprise Baby. He ran 3,600m. I know the poms and the irish do it different but bart won 12 cups with nz and aus bred horses so it seems completely stupid to me that his method be disregarded.
    It's not disregarded. It was good enough when it was 'our cup', it's not anymore and you either evolve or perish. The Euros and Japanese have changed everything



    But Bart's method saw him win Cups when the internationals ran in it. The thing is that Bart's methods can work but trainers these days can't do it like him. There is a reason why these trainers now days are good to excellent and Bart was a freak.
    Joseph O'Brien had two cups at 27. Bart was 37 when Light Fingers won his first.
  • thefalconthefalcon    17,398 posts
    times change kramer, hark back even 25 years ago, every trainer was past retirement age.
  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    Maybe so but by Bart's own criteria So You Think was underdone before it ran in the Cup in '10. Was never going to get in that light again, either.
  • PCPC    1,768 posts

    PC said:

    paraletic said:

    10,000 metres in around of combined race distances prior to melb. cup. 


    thanks for the info. I was looking at it in regards to Surprise Baby. He ran 3,600m. I know the poms and the irish do it different but bart won 12 cups with nz and aus bred horses so it seems completely stupid to me that his method be disregarded.
    It's not disregarded. It was good enough when it was 'our cup', it's not anymore and you either evolve or perish. The Euros and Japanese have changed everything



    But Bart's method saw him win Cups when the internationals ran in it. The thing is that Bart's methods can work but trainers these days can't do it like him. There is a reason why these trainers now days are good to excellent and Bart was a freak.
    Joseph O'Brien had two cups at 27. Bart was 37 when Light Fingers won his first.




    Most of our trainers in Australia can't train a stayer.
  • PCPC    1,768 posts
    I have no doubt if Bart was still training today he would be using the same methods that served him well previously and he would still be successful in staying races - with or without the internationals. People say Barts methods are dead. I say rubbish. Most trainers in Australia can't train stayers. Bart could (we all know that). Barts method is successful but trainers in Australia don't do it as well like him. As i said previously....there are champion trainers in Australia but Bart was a freak. To say Bart's methods are dead in the water is i think foolish.
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