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Change To Nomination Process

Harness & Greyhounds
WA Single Acceptance/Blind Nominations Trial
Commencing in the new season WA will trial a Single Acceptance/Blind Nominations process. To complement the change most race fields will be drawn on PBD$L3. The reason for the trial is to test if this method will deliver fuller race fields and a reduction in the number of short-priced favourites.The process is simple:
A trainer nominates a horse to race at a meeting prior to the published Acceptance Time
A trainer may nominate a horse for more than one race code in order of preference
A trainer can withdraw a horse from a race code without penalty prior to Acceptance Time
A penalty will apply if a trainer scratches a horse after the Acceptance Time
Nominations for race meetings will not be available for viewing prior to Acceptance Time

Comments

  • JayJayJayJay    6,170 posts
    Apologies for the formatting of the above, best I could do. This is a significant change to the process of nomination.

    With any change, there will be winners and losers. I suspect lower profile trainers and owners of lower ability horses will be nominating for races not knowing who they will run into from the bigger outfits and/or whether there are sufficient noms for the race to hold up.

    Will they be keen to nominate and accept with their scrubbers for a Friday night or Sunday race for $4500 in the country, get the float and gear ready, organise time off work etc only to find some superstar has accepted and they are totally wasting their time and money? 

    Am I correct in saying galloping owners and trainers get to see nominations (and barriers) prior to acceptance time?

    Will this change encourage or discourage owners to either continue on with their moderate performers?

    Will this change encourage new owners (or new trainers for that matter) to get involved?

    Will the high profile owners and trainers support this change?

    Will harness racing end up being a contest between the 4 or 5 main stables?

    Will this change prevent races falling over due to trainers having (currently)  prior knowledge of who has nominated and scratching accordingly?
    3 month trial in place from the start of the new season (January 1st).
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,929 posts
    Someone has found the DeLorean in the field selection office and set it to 1979 it seems.

    JayJay likes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,578 posts
    Not that i could careless - because WA Trotting i dont bet on it - and hardly watch it - basically because what has happened in the past 2 years 

    Now the trial  they say - purpose - to get a reduction in the number of short price favourites - and thats why i dont bet on it . Bunbury Tuesday night - classic example - all faves won - $1.26 $1.28 $2.60 $3.30 $1.18 $1.30 $2.35 -  no other state in Aust has got this problem 

    How do you fix it - some blame the handicapping - no i think -  the reason is - its just bad luck - you have got  4-5 elite stables who specialise in continously bringing in talented NZ horses - and also WA have a stack of ordinary/non competitive pacers - and these fresh talented imports - go through their grades - start $1.18 and beat the huge pool of ordinary pacers - and thats why they start $1.18 

    Albany is a great example - use to be open market races - now its basically Howlett/Bond/Lewis with their talented NZ pacers beating very very ordinary horses  who have had say well over 100 starts for say 3-4 wins max - a handicapping system  is not going to stop that  Typical Albany race last year - Bond runner $1.50 Howlett runner $2.40 - the rest of them are scrubbers and 100-1 - how does a handicapping system stop that 

    Rousey ex WA - won 6 on the Trot at Redcliffe  - got narrowly beaten Wed night going for 7 in a row - but the big difference is - its not facing talented NZ imports - thats the difference between WA and the other states - thats  the current situation in WA - and thats why you have got all the short price favourites

    aussiebattler, savethegame likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    6,170 posts
    5 of the 7 winners at Bunbury were Westbred horses.

    As far as Rousey is concerned, it went over east with an NR of around 30.......having won all those races, including the 6 in a row, its NR is still only 51. It's HWOE under the WA system is $32,700 (Level 9)....which it has for life.....and with all respect to her, she would get lost racing in level 9 races over here. It makes total sense to send her to race under the NR system that operates in all jurisdictions except WA.

    To say the handicapping system is blameless shows no understanding of the how it is operating and the effect it is having. It is almost certainly a major reason why Nitro Lad, Bolta, Clares Fool, Bob wheel, Nightwatch Star, Captain Mannering, Clarenden Hustler and about 40 others have all moved East this season.

    Furthermore, the pool of WA horses available for purchase by prospective owners is tiny, it is almost impossible to buy anything.....and so owners buy out of both NZ and the Eastern States, or bring over horses that they owned and raced over East. Those with large budgets, understandably buy the best with seemingly unlimited budgets, contacts and resources. Others hunt around for the crumbs to operate within their budgets The result is as Marko says....the talented horses beat everyone elses ordinary ones and when their HWOE gets too high, the on sell to North America, which is their right, they are breaking no rules.

    And finally, a lot of pretty expensive NZ imports race in Queensland...a lot.
  • Markovina said:

    Not that i could careless - because WA Trotting i dont bet on it - and hardly watch it - basically because what has happened in the past 2 years 


    Now the trial  they say - purpose - to get a reduction in the number of short price favourites - and thats why i dont bet on it . Bunbury Tuesday night - classic example - all faves won - $1.26 $1.28 $2.60 $3.30 $1.18 $1.30 $2.35 -  no other state in Aust has got this problem 

    How do you fix it - some blame the handicapping - no i think -  the reason is - its just bad luck - you have got  4-5 elite stables who specialise in continously bringing in talented NZ horses - and also WA have a stack of ordinary/non competitive pacers - and these fresh talented imports - go through their grades - start $1.18 and beat the huge pool of ordinary pacers - and thats why they start $1.18 

    Albany is a great example - use to be open market races - now its basically Howlett/Bond/Lewis with their talented NZ pacers beating very very ordinary horses  who have had say well over 100 starts for say 3-4 wins max - a handicapping system  is not going to stop that  Typical Albany race last year - Bond runner $1.50 Howlett runner $2.40 - the rest of them are scrubbers and 100-1 - how does a handicapping system stop that 

    Rousey ex WA - won 6 on the Trot at Redcliffe  - got narrowly beaten Wed night going for 7 in a row - but the big difference is - its not facing talented NZ imports - thats the difference between WA and the other states - thats  the current situation in WA - and thats why you have got all the short price favourites

    I have done some quick numbers on last season at Albany not perfect but not sure your perception of Albany is correct

    Bonds had no runners their last season at all  of the 80 races there last season Howlett had runners in 25 races. 3 or 4 he had multiple runners.

    Of their approximately 13 winners only 7 started under $2.00 of their 28 runners or so for the season 9 of them started at odds on.

    Agree Lewis had a number of winners and runners at odds on but alot also came from Peter Anderson and Nathan Turvey.  Even G Hall Snr had more runners and winners in Albany then Team Bond.

    Interesting numbers.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,578 posts
    JayJay said:

    5 of the 7 winners at Bunbury were Westbred horses.

    As far as Rousey is concerned, it went over east with an NR of around 30.......having won all those races, including the 6 in a row, its NR is still only 51. It's HWOE under the WA system is $32,700 (Level 9)....which it has for life.....and with all respect to her, she would get lost racing in level 9 races over here. It makes total sense to send her to race under the NR system that operates in all jurisdictions except WA.

    To say the handicapping system is blameless shows no understanding of the how it is operating and the effect it is having. It is almost certainly a major reason why Nitro Lad, Bolta, Clares Fool, Bob wheel, Nightwatch Star, Captain Mannering, Clarenden Hustler and about 40 others have all moved East this season.

    Furthermore, the pool of WA horses available for purchase by prospective owners is tiny, it is almost impossible to buy anything.....and so owners buy out of both NZ and the Eastern States, or bring over horses that they owned and raced over East. Those with large budgets, understandably buy the best with seemingly unlimited budgets, contacts and resources. Others hunt around for the crumbs to operate within their budgets The result is as Marko says....the talented horses beat everyone elses ordinary ones and when their HWOE gets too high, the on sell to North America, which is their right, they are breaking no rules.

    And finally, a lot of pretty expensive NZ imports race in Queensland...a lot.
    Totally wrong

    Do one simple equation - Hall Bond Howlett Reed Oliverri Lewis - they are all  now based in QLD - and they keep the same business model - bringing in stacks of talented NZ horses - over and over again continuously replenishing the stocks 

    Well guess what - the 2-3 meetings a week at Redcliffe and the Albion Park mid week meetings you would have a plethora of $1.20 winners trained by those above horseman - beating up on average local Qld horses 

    And guess what - Rousey would be non competitive - and put on the float to come to WA

    freodockers likes this post.

  • KTQKTQ    215 posts
    They need to add number of noms and then number of noms as a first preference against each race. People can then see where races will fall over and nom to suit.
  • KTQKTQ    215 posts

    Howletts dont have the same model as Oliveri, Hall and Bonds. 99.5% of our NZers are bought as untried weanlings or yearlings as opposed to proven horses. We also breed 10-20 a year. We feed up and break each horse and we own them all. Its Nevertheless, Talktomeurmattjesty, Sunnys Little Whiz, Clover Chance, Tayla Amore and maybe 1 or 2 other were bought as raced horses I think out of our entire stable.

    We went to almost every Albany meeting last year, taking at one point 3 x cars and floats getting home at 3 or 4am every time. We each support the club's cafeteria too. Its not like we went in for a snatch and grab of the Albany Cup

    One person on social media told me we had no right going down there, as if our bills are somehow not as real as hobby trainers, as if our employees work for free. If we're prepared to do the 8hr+ return trip, risking hitting a million kangaroos and putting the wear and tear on multiple vehicles and our bodies, then I dont think people should say we have no right racing there. I dont need to state this and this isnt the point of this thread but Albany shouldnt be reserved for Albany trainers. A race is a race is a race
  • JayJayJayJay    6,170 posts
    Explain Marko..Queensland aready has dominant stables like Dixon etc, NSW has the Cross/McCarthy juggernaut, Victoria the Emma Stewart Clayton Tonkin deal.....just to mention a few, so no need to do the equation, it already exists. They all race under NR and they keep them and dont send them west, so if it it isn't the WA HWOE deal that is causing the exodus of horses to the East and North America (dozens of them so far this season), what is it?

    VillageKid likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    774 posts
    Totally agree KTQ without contributors like yourselves they wouldn’t have a club. Stupid comment and I from personal experience in Kal knew most trainers welcomed the Keileys, Bonds, Anderson’s etc or whoever else wanted to support the club.
    As far as comments about big trainers, short priced favourites etc beating up on poor local horses. We are seeing the result not the problem of 20 years of high priced imports ready to race coming over.
    But then again as most people say who have their heads up their backsides “it better to see better quality horses racing”. What a crock of shit.
    If they are all WA bred the better quality horse is the one that wins the most races.
    Until this thought process is changed by our illustrious leaders enjoy 8 horse fields and the donations to big buyers.
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,929 posts
    edited December 2020
    Meanwhile...Nitro Lad with one win in his last 49 WA starts wins his 5th race with 3 placings from 13 starts since Sept 28 in NSW and $18,600. $4.40 latest win div.
    On the same Sunday 13 December Canberra program 3 y/o Nightwatch Star...a winner of one Kellerberrin race from 60 WA starts wins its third race from 6 starts in NSW and $9,000 since the 17th of November $3.30 latest win div.

    These results are not indicative of perfectly adequate racehorses being cannon fodder in WA given the horse population demographic that is encouraged by the handicapping system here though are they ? Perhaps now that they have found form someone will buy them and return to WA with them....their HWOE has headed north a bit and you will have to nominate them blind now but hey...a round trip to Albany of 8 hours or so over Chrissie/New Year for $100 return on investment will give you plenty of time to contemplate the character building exercise of filling fields for fun.
    ps...the Canberra meeting had 1 NZ import at the meeting from a total of 60 competing horses. There were 2 x odds on favs that won incl the trot and 5 beaten favs. Even fields in general...and thus the results
  • JayJayJayJay    6,170 posts
    Not forgetting Dennis, another more than adequate horse, winning his 4th race and taking his earnings to around $18k in stakes (in one of the lowest stakemoney jurisdictions, if not the lowest, in Australia) since the HWOE handicapping system banished him over east. But no, we know nothing, just negative Norms who keep producing unhelpful facts and statistics. Like whistling into a gale.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,578 posts

    Meanwhile...Nitro Lad with one win in his last 49 WA starts wins his 5th race with 3 placings from 13 starts since Sept 28 in NSW and $18,600. $4.40 latest win div.

    On the same Sunday 13 December Canberra program 3 y/o Nightwatch Star...a winner of one Kellerberrin race from 60 WA starts wins its third race from 6 starts in NSW and $9,000 since the 17th of November $3.30 latest win div.

    These results are not indicative of perfectly adequate racehorses being cannon fodder in WA given the horse population demographic that is encouraged by the handicapping system here though are they ? Perhaps now that they have found form someone will buy them and return to WA with them....their HWOE has headed north a bit and you will have to nominate them blind now but hey...a round trip to Albany of 8 hours or so over Chrissie/New Year for $100 return on investment will give you plenty of time to contemplate the character building exercise of filling fields for fun.
    ps...the Canberra meeting had 1 NZ import at the meeting from a total of 60 competing horses. There were 2 x odds on favs that won incl the trot and 5 beaten favs. Even fields in general...and thus the results
    See yours is a well balanced post Curmudge - you have mentioned handicapping issues - but by giving the Canberra example - you havent ignored - and you havent buried your head in the sand re NZ numbers - only 1 runner at Canberra tonight - and it was their cup meeting . Those ex WA horses have got a chance because they are not up against  aheap of NZ imports 

    Amanda Turnbull uses the WA model - brings in a stack of NZ horses ( same 4-5 owners ) and she wins alot of races around Bathurst/Parkes/Dubbo - and the bulk of them start around $1.30/$1.40 - interesting that 

    The good and bad of WA trotting - can be summed up in one race - the1st at Wagin Frid night- the 2 year old race for WA bred horses

    It ticks some good boxes - $4 the field ( the winner $10 into $4 - form students could win a quid ) - good exciting race - very good mile rate 2.00 for 2100 - 3 or 4 of those pacers could win 10-14 races in their career 

    Now the bad - the real bad - the stakemoney for that 2 year old race - $4.5k - what a pittance - should be 8k - preferrably 10k plus bonuses

    LightningJake likes this post.

  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    455 posts
    JayJay said:

    Not forgetting Dennis, another more than adequate horse, winning his 4th race and taking his earnings to around $18k in stakes (in one of the lowest stakemoney jurisdictions, if not the lowest, in Australia) since the HWOE handicapping system banished him over east. But no, we know nothing, just negative Norms who keep producing unhelpful facts and statistics. Like whistling into a gale.




    Just wanna throw the shoe on the other foot here and bat for the other side.. I’ve had one recently come over that’s a 75k life time stakes with a national rating of 70 which is quite high, he comes here as a 16k Hwoe which is considerably low.

    In regards to a horse like Nightwatch Star it was racing the weakest of fields here regardless of our system, it’s improved out of site over there
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