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Change To Ease Out Rule

Harness & Greyhounds
JayJayJayJay    6,341 posts
Part of a fairly lengthy explanation of a change in the application of the ease out rule from RWWA stewards. Full statement on HRA website along with changes to the slow sectionals policy:

"For the Ease Out Policy to work effectively, the driver of the horse
being eased out must also exercise due care and not resist the move when
not in a position to realistically do so.

In circumstances where the driver initiating the move does so
according to this policy, the driver being eased wider is expected to
react by moving wider as endeavouring to resist such movement when not
in a position to realistically hold the position is likely to result in
action being taken against them under the rules in the event of an
incident and interference resulting to either horse.   

Stewards when assessing the circumstances of an incident will consider the degree of care exercised by each driver.

Basically, interference will occur for one, or more, of three reasons:

  • The driver attempting to shift ground does so suddenly or abruptly,
    or his horse over-reacts when being taken outwards, leaving the driver
    of the horse he is attempting to shift insufficient time to react to the
    move,
  • The driver of the horse being eased fails to react to the move or
    attempts to resist the move when not in a position to realistically do
    so,
  • The horse being eased out does not respond to its driver’s efforts.

Any assessments by the Stewards in relation to interference will be
determined on the merits of each particular case, having regard to the
Australian Harness Racing Rules, the degree of care being exercised by
each driver, all of the above factors and any other relevant
considerations that may apply. It is entirely reasonable for a driver
easing outwards with a clear advantage to expect the move to be
completed without incident. If an incident occurs in those circumstances
it is highly probable that either the actions of the horse or driver
being eased wider were significant factors.


Comments

  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    2,272 posts
    In my opinion a much more realistic interpretation of the rule.  Far too often the driver of the horse easing out has been penalised when the driver of the horse being forced wider attempts to hold ground when not travelling well enough to do so.

    PackedMetalPanda, getthechange likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    1,085 posts
    The rule has been around since day dot but last 10 or so years hasn’t been utilised.
    The general rule was if you pushed or resisted without being in a position to do so and a horse breaks you get time, simple.
    There is one particular driver who has offended many times under this rule but continually the horse has been at fault.

    Cant_Refuse likes this post.

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,999 posts
    I think the ease out rule should go altogether.
    It is only possible to ease out safely when wheels are adjacent or the inside horse & drivers wheel is fractionally but not entirely in front of the outside horses cart wheel. With the speed carts the wheels go straight under the shaft & into the legs of the outside horse when the easing out drivers cart is even marginally in front of the outside cart. The outside horse/s driver is obliged to pre-empt & ease with the inside horses movement.
    By removing the rule altogether it further emphasises the tactical skill of the respective drivers...firstly in the placement of their drives early in the race and secondly when they choose to make a move in a race.
    We are the only state to still have the ease out rule in place?

    Markovina, savethegame likes this post.

  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    496 posts

    I think the ease out rule should go altogether.

    It is only possible to ease out safely when wheels are adjacent or the inside horse & drivers wheel is fractionally but not entirely in front of the outside horses cart wheel. With the speed carts the wheels go straight under the shaft & into the legs of the outside horse when the easing out drivers cart is even marginally in front of the outside cart. The outside horse/s driver is obliged to pre-empt & ease with the inside horses movement.
    By removing the rule altogether it further emphasises the tactical skill of the respective drivers...firstly in the placement of their drives early in the race and secondly when they choose to make a move in a race.
    We are the only state to still have the ease out rule in place?



    Our racing would be very boring with no ease out rule and the amount of leaders that win at GP would double

    Chariotsonfire, Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,999 posts
    It may change but whether it was boring or more leader biased ( all tracks are...it's geometry) is a moot point. Certainly would be safer, less horses with leg damage & fewer locked wheel incidents.
    Also adjudication of racing incidents by authorities should be less a matter of opinion & degree in their complication. 

    cisco likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    6,341 posts
    Bound to be debated one way or another, fairly polarising topic. I, like dozens of others, have been on the receiving end of either interpretation. At Bunbury one night during one of the Inters Heats nights, I had a horse absolutely traveling one out 2 back, a very real chance. Coming in for the bell about 1100m from home. the horse inside just shifts him up the track, my driver resisted the move but to no avail....a clattering of wheels, drivers shouting etc. My horse gets seriously interfered with, goes out of his gear and is out of the race. He should not have ceded to the inside horse, he was hard up on the horse in front of him, he simply got taken out, plain as day. Nothing happened, no suspension, no reprimand, no nothing. I phoned (politely) the stewards on the Monday, was told all was above board, no breach, play on.
    Just recently, I had one locked away on the pegs, the horse outside is not traveling but resisted strongly the move off the pegs and in effect lay all over my horse until he eventually dropped off sufficiently for my horse to get racing room. Flew home, ran a close placing, the horse trying to hold him in ran a conspicuous last???
    And I suspect there are a million stories of pros and cons ......but the rules are now there in black and white, albeit they are up for interpretation. Let's hope for transparency and consistency........until the next change. I can understand all views, it is the nature of the rule but maybe this may result in less horses being given the annotation "HU" or "HUE"
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,705 posts
    Its a terrible rule - a shocking rule - thats why they have never had it in the Estern States

    Paramount to any rule is the safety of horse and driver - well there is none with that rule - and it is a terrible look when the bloke on the outside is being shoved 3 wide and is desperately trying to hold his ground - but to no avail - 95 times out of 100 he is shoved out of the way - and that horses chances are finito 

    And Jay Jay - because ive got a memory like an elephant - but correct me if im wrong - but what i thought happened - was Lewis was behind the leader ( with a sprint lane ) and your horse was in the breeze but back a liitle bit - so coming in for the bell your horse has moved up to get to the wheel of the leader - and Lewis has come off the pegs and shoved you 3 wide 

    Mind rule - no rule was broken - because thats the WA rule 

    As for the change of application - what a joke - how are they going to interpret that -
  • JayJayJayJay    6,341 posts
    Nope Marko, I will correct you, book the memory in for a service, my horse was one out 3 back, it wasn't ACL doing the pushing. But it doesn't matter because it all becomes a 50/50 argument, albeit in this case, there was still 1100m to travel.
    I think where it becomes a viable rule is when the outside horse is not able to compete or stay on the helmet in front of it and just becomes a deliberate pest in holding a traveling horse on the pegs for the sake of it and then drops out of contention and runs last.  The interpretation will doubtless cause much discussion......sometimes, we will be cheering, sometimes we will be booing. In the full statement, they have made pointed reference to the safety and care factor. 
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,999 posts
    As it is at the moment horses are being driven to utilise the ease out rule tactically setting up a race pattern of being in a position to cover the inside horses at critical ease out points. Without it race moves would be forced by horses advancing from the rear. That may in fact reward initiative from drivers and make races more interesting. eg With no ease out in place for instance Voak/ BJB on friday would have been flushed by Suvaljko/BL rather than remain in the middle & take his chances of getting into a position to ease out .... the race would have been on a long way from home given the characteristics of the horses & we would have witnessed a truer contest of horse ability rather than driver/horse contortion.
  • PackedMetalPandaPackedMetalPanda    114 posts
    WA racing is the most exciting in Australia because of the ability to push out, period.
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,999 posts

    WA racing is the most exciting in Australia because of the ability to push out, period.

    I thought that for years too Panda....until I worked out that being the only racing jurisdiction that allowed it in the world was probably indicative of the existence of alternate theories. 
  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    496 posts

    WA racing is the most exciting in Australia because of the ability to push out, period.

    I thought that for years too Panda....until I worked out that being the only racing jurisdiction that allowed it in the world was probably indicative of the existence of alternate theories. 



    I’m pretty sure you can still push out at every track Aus wide just the points of when you’re allowed too is different
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    1,999 posts

    WA racing is the most exciting in Australia because of the ability to push out, period.

    I thought that for years too Panda....until I worked out that being the only racing jurisdiction that allowed it in the world was probably indicative of the existence of alternate theories. 



    I’m pretty sure you can still push out at every track Aus wide just the points of when you’re allowed too is different
    May be the case Rocket but I can't recall seeing the ease out/ resist move thing happening anywhere else for a long time....actually ever when I think on it. The most definitive I would be with the other jurisdiction from watching is that they seem to oblige drivers improving into positions not fully occupied by another horse to wait until a very clear advantage is established & then the driver/horse on the receiving end tends to back out of the contested position. Much the same watching the US & European racing....the gap has to be clear and definite before taking it...everyone seems to understand the requirement but they do have relegation/disqualification provisions acting there as well.
  • ArapahoArapaho    23 posts
    The ease out, or push out rule, is a hard one to decipher whether right or wrong,but i know one thing for sure and certain, these american carts are not designed to be safe or effective in maneuvering horses wider on the track, in fact they are outright dangerous.
    I think you will find, the reason these rules need to be looked at ,now, is not because of the way  drivers are driving or interpreting rules, but in fact,its because of what they are now, sitting on.

    savethegame likes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,705 posts

    WA racing is the most exciting in Australia because of the ability to push out, period.

    I thought that for years too Panda....until I worked out that being the only racing jurisdiction that allowed it in the world was probably indicative of the existence of alternate theories. 



    I’m pretty sure you can still push out at every track Aus wide just the points of when you’re allowed too is different
    Yeah the candy pole in the back straight - thats whats happened in all Eastern states racing for the past 20 years at least - and no one has got an issue with that at all - its designated spot- in the back straight the last time 

    Where as in WA you can be on the markers - and shove something that is in the running line - 3 wide coming in the straight for the bell - its dangerous - and if you are in the running line - then suddenly shoved 3 wide - your chances are totally ruined right their

    I liken that rule to 2 cars travelling along a highway - - the guy in the left  lane says im going to come out in the right hand lane and shove you  off the road -( with no notice ) and the guy in the right hand lane says - i dont want to be shoved off the road - im going to hold my ground

    That rule is utter madness - and totally unsafe

    savethegame likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    1,085 posts
    Zephyr will never have to worry about it.
  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    496 posts
    Markovina said:

    WA racing is the most exciting in Australia because of the ability to push out, period.

    I thought that for years too Panda....until I worked out that being the only racing jurisdiction that allowed it in the world was probably indicative of the existence of alternate theories. 



    I’m pretty sure you can still push out at every track Aus wide just the points of when you’re allowed too is different
    Yeah the candy pole in the back straight - thats whats happened in all Eastern states racing for the past 20 years at least - and no one has got an issue with that at all - its designated spot- in the back straight the last time 

    Where as in WA you can be on the markers - and shove something that is in the running line - 3 wide coming in the straight for the bell - its dangerous - and if you are in the running line - then suddenly shoved 3 wide - your chances are totally ruined right their

    I liken that rule to 2 cars travelling along a highway - - the guy in the left  lane says im going to come out in the right hand lane and shove you  off the road -( with no notice ) and the guy in the right hand lane says - i dont want to be shoved off the road - im going to hold my ground

    That rule is utter madness - and totally unsafe



    You can only be pushed if the inside runner has an advantage on you, very hard if you’re right on the helmet in front of you. You talk like it happens every race it’s probably once a week at best
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,778 posts

    WA racing is the most exciting in Australia because of the ability to push out, period.




    A night of interstate harness watching on the couch has everyone in the house over me yelling “go, Go, GO!!!!, for ….. go” at the tv when horses who are bolting have drivers who are looking for a permission slip to actually put their horse in to the race or heaven forbid move one out of the way.

    It is not enjoyable at all for me.

    PackedMetalPanda likes this post.

  • Ivorytrunkey86Ivorytrunkey86    106 posts
    Let them be able to push from the very start,then we will see who can drive.

    Cant_Refuse likes this post.

  • AbbysAceAbbysAce    378 posts

    Markovina said:

    WA racing is the most exciting in Australia because of the ability to push out, period.

    I thought that for years too Panda....until I worked out that being the only racing jurisdiction that allowed it in the world was probably indicative of the existence of alternate theories. 



    I’m pretty sure you can still push out at every track Aus wide just the points of when you’re allowed too is different
    Yeah the candy pole in the back straight - thats whats happened in all Eastern states racing for the past 20 years at least - and no one has got an issue with that at all - its designated spot- in the back straight the last time 

    Where as in WA you can be on the markers - and shove something that is in the running line - 3 wide coming in the straight for the bell - its dangerous - and if you are in the running line - then suddenly shoved 3 wide - your chances are totally ruined right their

    I liken that rule to 2 cars travelling along a highway - - the guy in the left  lane says im going to come out in the right hand lane and shove you  off the road -( with no notice ) and the guy in the right hand lane says - i dont want to be shoved off the road - im going to hold my ground

    That rule is utter madness - and totally unsafe



    You can only be pushed if the inside runner has an advantage on you, very hard if you’re right on the helmet in front of you. You talk like it happens every race it’s probably once a week at best
    So if it happens once a week at best, how can the amount of leaders winning at GP double, as you said?

    curmudgeon likes this post.

  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    496 posts
    AbbysAce said:

    Markovina said:

    WA racing is the most exciting in Australia because of the ability to push out, period.

    I thought that for years too Panda....until I worked out that being the only racing jurisdiction that allowed it in the world was probably indicative of the existence of alternate theories. 



    I’m pretty sure you can still push out at every track Aus wide just the points of when you’re allowed too is different
    Yeah the candy pole in the back straight - thats whats happened in all Eastern states racing for the past 20 years at least - and no one has got an issue with that at all - its designated spot- in the back straight the last time 

    Where as in WA you can be on the markers - and shove something that is in the running line - 3 wide coming in the straight for the bell - its dangerous - and if you are in the running line - then suddenly shoved 3 wide - your chances are totally ruined right their

    I liken that rule to 2 cars travelling along a highway - - the guy in the left  lane says im going to come out in the right hand lane and shove you  off the road -( with no notice ) and the guy in the right hand lane says - i dont want to be shoved off the road - im going to hold my ground

    That rule is utter madness - and totally unsafe



    You can only be pushed if the inside runner has an advantage on you, very hard if you’re right on the helmet in front of you. You talk like it happens every race it’s probably once a week at best
    So if it happens once a week at best, how can the amount of leaders winning at GP double, as you said?



    Well done
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,705 posts
    I think it was Aiden Warwick about 5 years ago he had a handful of drives in Victoria 

    And he said it was a hell of alot safer over their - the 2 reasons he gave - no push out rule - until  midway down the back straight - and sprint lanes

    He said those 2 factors made it alot safer for the drivers in his opinion .

    curmudgeon, savethegame likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,167 posts
    No doubt W.A.Harness  provides the best spectacle.--But do remember Steve Mills interviewing Gavin Lang regards W.A Harness racing he said  after our commitments have finished on Friday night in Vic. that some of the drivers would regularly sit back  with few drinks and watch would he called demo derby racing.from the west.

    But  the top 10-15 drivers in W.A. driving in victoria  would hold there own.---- C.Alford has never had a problem  to make a immediate impact in w.a.(imo)  seen alot victorians struggle who generally driving top horses when they come here--- whole different mindset required.sitting back, waiting for things to unfold  race after race doesn't work at G.P.

    JayJay, Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    2,272 posts
    The worst drivers at GP over the years have been from NZ. Better in recent times. I remember a horse called Luxury Liner being given no chance in an Inter Dominion Series at GP. I think Herlihy was the driver and he has an outstanding record in NZ.

    VillageKid likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    6,341 posts
    Interesting view Chariots, Luxury Liner was a top horse and Tony Herlihy almost without peer as a driver .....did he get around GP okay (because many horses from NZ don't at their first try). I recall Auckland Reactor (one of the Butts...Anthony I think) and Master Musician (Robert Dunn) being very successful. For mine, the worst visitors I have seen were the Victorians, a class of their own. Vin Knight was hardly a sit back and wait sort of driver and he did win races here but only when the horse was vastly superior, they never sent Bruce Clarke over to drive Gammalite and Russell never got Ted Demmler to drive Steelo in Perth......all for good reason. Alford and Lang the two obvious exceptions but I reckon GP and our vastly superior drivers spooked the Vics for decades.

    VillageKid likes this post.

  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    2,272 posts
    Herlihy refused to put Luxury Liner into the race and paid the consequences. As you know you cannot drive pretty at GP especially in top company.

    VillageKid likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    6,341 posts
    Yep, fair enough.....sometimes, being drawn to lead in a big race at GP is the worst draw of all, the tempo is usually very upbeat.

    VillageKid likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,167 posts
    Ironic that Herilihy and Lang both had the same nickname as the iceman. which tells the story regards driving at GP alot times think B.Purdon would drive in heats and Herilihy would drive in finals Herilihy won a world drivers championship.
    There was a kiwi that drove for G Harper not sure if all his first 70drives were in W.A his first winner race 70 he also finished a representative in World Drivers Championship think his name was K.Barron or similar
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    1,705 posts

    Let them be able to push from the very start,then we will see who can drive.

    Thats what Jim Schrader wanted 

    When WA  harness racing had an actual profile - Schrader came out in the paper and said the push out rule should commence when the arms of the mobile retract

    And thats how he use to drive - pretty rough

    FRK - champion trainer - wasnt the greatest driver in my opinion - but he drove very fairly - and was like he comes accross in the media - an absolute gentleman

    However i use to sit in that birdcage area - and in a couple of big rich  juvenile races  - after they past the winning post  the final time - and going past that bird cage area - FRK from about 50-60 yards away let Schrader have it - screaming out at him - because of perceived interference in the run 

    And there was a Fremantle Cup ( something tells me it was held at GP on a Sat night ) and  a stable client of FRK ( i think it was a gallops bookie ) purchased a talented horse with a no name trainer ( not bagging him )  on race eve - they paid 80-90 grand for it from memory 

    FRK with a brilliant bit of driving from the handicap tapes - weaved his way through the field  - and within 500metres was in the one by one - but of course at that point Schrader comes off the rails and shoves him 3 wide - and had to be snagged right back to last - all chance of winning ruined
  • freodockersfreodockers    1,085 posts
    You sure you not getting Schroder mixed up with TBW Marko.
    Hardest of them all.
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