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Rolling Fire Plunge

Harness & Greyhounds
81s to 10s and no one has commented. 

For me it looked dodgy. Winner gets the nice rails run which he probably knew was coming as he could have gone wider. What is Emily doing turning her head to the right forever amount of times even after Hall has gone past her on the inside? Has she ever done that previously? Looked worthy of a logie award.

Comments

  • JayJayJayJay    7,630 posts
    Umm, I think it was Kyle Harper....

    "HOTLY PURSUED (K. Harper) – Was inconvenienced during the score-up and
    as a result, was out of position as the start was affected.  Driver K.
    Harper was fined $100 under HR162(1)(www) for allowing his drive to
    shift ground which advantaged another runner."

    Not aware of how the corporates work but a Tuesday Night, pool sizes....would it take much to come in from 50s to 10's? About 10 bucks would do the trick on TabTouch wouldn't it? Anyway, regardless, someone got a bit for not much.

    VillageKid likes this post.

  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    841 posts

    81s to 10s and no one has commented. 


    For me it looked dodgy. Winner gets the nice rails run which he probably knew was coming as he could have gone wider. What is Emily doing turning her head to the right forever amount of times even after Hall has gone past her on the inside? Has she ever done that previously? Looked worthy of a logie award.



    Can’t be throwing out accusations and getting the facts wrong haha peanut

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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,719 posts
    Don't quote me on it but I'm pretty sure that's the horse the Russell bets gave out on One Out One Back with Matt as running excellent times at trials?

    Bettsy throwing it out coupled with if he actually had a small bet (marked acc) would have probably seen it not be too much cash to make the move.

    Really just getting to its correct price.

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  • PackedMetalPandaPackedMetalPanda    166 posts
    Gilgamesh said:

    Don't quote me on it but I'm pretty sure that's the horse the Russell bets gave out on One Out One Back with Matt as running excellent times at trials?

    Bettsy throwing it out coupled with if he actually had a small bet (marked acc) would have probably seen it not be too much cash to make the move.

    Really just getting to its correct price.




    Correct, anyone who saw the trial understood it was over the odds.

    Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • SLIPPERGOLDENSLIPPERGOLDEN    7,744 posts

    Can’t be throwing out accusations and getting the facts wrong haha peanut

    More my impression than accusations and I stand by my impression. Instead of weakly calling me a peanut how about you defend your side of things with logical comment?

    One thing I will agree with from other posts is that it was certainly over the odds considering form and especially the driver.
  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    841 posts

    Can’t be throwing out accusations and getting the facts wrong haha peanut

    More my impression than accusations and I stand by my impression. Instead of weakly calling me a peanut how about you defend your side of things with logical comment?

    One thing I will agree with from other posts is that it was certainly over the odds considering form and especially the driver.



    Never see you comment much on harness and you’ve made a new thread to what looks to me like accuse someone of cheating let alone accuse the wrong person completely
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts
    I just watched the replay - hadnt seen it before

    It was a sensational drive by Gary Hall Jnr - weaved his way through in the back straight - and if he had eased 4 wide at the top of the straight - it would not have won 

    Kyle Harper on the leader - did what any other driver would have done - looked to his outside  - to see the dangers - which horses were making ground on him etc - as for him rolling out under pressure - well horses do that when they are tired and under pressure

    So as far as how the race was run - all good - like 99.7% of all harness races are 

    The only surprising thing about that race - is one of the part owners of the winner is listed as M T Radley - now if that is the CEO of GP ( and im only assuming that - because it only lists initials ) then it should not be allowed under any circumstances - and i dont think it would be allowed in any other state 

  • JayJayJayJay    7,630 posts
    On what grounds do you make that statement Marko? Michael Radley and any other club official, office holder or committee person is perfectly entitled to own, race or breed horses. Gloucester Park is just a club just as Wagin or Pinjarra is a club. There is much, a whole bunch actually that I would vehemently disagree with Michael on......in fact there would be very little that Michael and I actually agree on..... but to suggest he is not entitled to participate in ownership is complete nonsense.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts
    Absolute rubbish

    There is what is called a perceived conflict of interest

    Just like the former NSW Police Commissioner - the govt and the public werent too impressed when it was revealed that he was a part owner of a couple of gallopers - especially when the trainer of those gallopers got busted on drugs charges

    The perceived conflict of interest - you dont have Ceos of race clubs - part owning competing  horses - you just dont ( if it is in fact him - because it only has initials listed ) 
  • sonnysonny    1,056 posts
    Slip used the word dodgy in his original post. He did not say cheating.

    SLIPPERGOLDEN likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,788 posts
    edited August 2022
    People who oversee the integrity of the codes no doubt shouldn't  be allowed as owners---Can tell you be 80--90%  country racing & pacing committees  would be involved in ownership might add  operate in a volunteer  capacity.

    We have come along from when trainers got a positive swab issued a period of disqualification,then appealed to committees which could comprise of several of there  prominent owners.which on occasions led to a reduction in penalties. or allowed them back in the game  after doing 5 years of ten year penalties. so on

    Even very prominent vets are allowed in ownership groups and more then likely work on the days there horses are running at country venues etc  position of trust have no drama with that.

    Kalgoorlie had no vet from 50s to early seventies goldfields was without a
    qualified veterinarian. Tom Bowen who worked as a pharmaceutical dispenser  was given a special permit to administer veterinary duties to  all animals  in Goldfields  for very little financial reward.

    In another voluntary capacity he served as president of Golden Mile Trotting  Club for 15 years, one night  he  presented  the trophy  swabbed  that horse.  then stitch up a injured horse from the  same race, ----------
      
    Tom Bowen received  a  M.B.E.award

    Life Memberships of the  G.M.T.C------Kalgoorlie City Football Club ----W.A   Volunteer Fire Brigade---Eastern Goldfields Kennel Club.

    His son  is trainer Gary Bowen    plus owner of very promising Baby Paris for Colin Webster

    curmudgeon likes this post.

  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,719 posts
    Markovina said:

    I just watched the replay - hadnt seen it before


    It was a sensational drive by Gary Hall Jnr - weaved his way through in the back straight - and if he had eased 4 wide at the top of the straight - it would not have won 

    Kyle Harper on the leader - did what any other driver would have done - looked to his outside  - to see the dangers - which horses were making ground on him etc - as for him rolling out under pressure - well horses do that when they are tired and under pressure

    So as far as how the race was run - all good - like 99.7% of all harness races are 

    The only surprising thing about that race - is one of the part owners of the winner is listed as M T Radley - now if that is the CEO of GP ( and im only assuming that - because it only lists initials ) then it should not be allowed under any circumstances - and i dont think it would be allowed in any other state 




    Marko I love some of your tips and thoughts but you come up with some real garbage.

    Look up the ATC hierarchy, the head man, chairman, fist comment in his blog is "20 year race horse owner"

    John Massara was the chairman of Racing NSW, just owns a couple of horses.

    Radley is CEO of a race club, position has no impact on the rules or racing etc. There would be people working in all positions of race clubs that own horses.

    One that I did use to think was a bit of a conflict was Wishart when he was the handicapper giving out tips and from that I assume punting.

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  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    2,829 posts
    Getting back on subject the Rolling Fire Plunge and I make the following points:

    1. Astute form analysts Russel Betts and Hayden King both indicated prior to the event that the horse was well over the odds at the $81 and $51 bet earlier in the day.
    2. Perhaps the ones to come under scrutiny should be the corporate bookmakers price assessors.
    3. In my opinion Gary Hall drove the horse to qualify by taking short cuts then the gaps started to appear.
    4. I have seen and been on the wrong end of many rorts in my time and this is definitely not one of them.






  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Speaking of turning heads I recall a very prominent driver in the mid nineties I think, leading the field at GP with 700 mtrs to travel, turned his head to look at the times board located at the 400 mtr mark. As he did this a horse that was heavily backed came round and crossed him for the lead and I might add never looked back.
    Now that looked dodgy and it probably was.
  • BetonmeBetonme    209 posts
    Think it was a terrific drive, needed some luck in running - got it, and definitely was rated incorrectly by bookmakers in early markets.

    savethegame likes this post.

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    Jnr did a similar thing to win on Lang Inwoods horse Twentynine Twelve at $100/1 a couple of weeks ago. I think his best drives are when he is free of expectation & makes it up as he goes along...which is not often given the usual range of horses he sits on.

    Gilgamesh, Cant_Refuse, savethegame, jum likes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts
    Gilgamesh said:

    Markovina said:

    I just watched the replay - hadnt seen it before


    It was a sensational drive by Gary Hall Jnr - weaved his way through in the back straight - and if he had eased 4 wide at the top of the straight - it would not have won 

    Kyle Harper on the leader - did what any other driver would have done - looked to his outside  - to see the dangers - which horses were making ground on him etc - as for him rolling out under pressure - well horses do that when they are tired and under pressure

    So as far as how the race was run - all good - like 99.7% of all harness races are 

    The only surprising thing about that race - is one of the part owners of the winner is listed as M T Radley - now if that is the CEO of GP ( and im only assuming that - because it only lists initials ) then it should not be allowed under any circumstances - and i dont think it would be allowed in any other state 




    Marko I love some of your tips and thoughts but you come up with some real garbage.

    Look up the ATC hierarchy, the head man, chairman, fist comment in his blog is "20 year race horse owner"

    John Massara was the chairman of Racing NSW, just owns a couple of horses.

    Radley is CEO of a race club, position has no impact on the rules or racing etc. There would be people working in all positions of race clubs that own horses.

    One that I did use to think was a bit of a conflict was Wishart when he was the handicapper giving out tips and from that I assume punting.

    No - its not garbage at all - re a perceived conflict of interest - and your showing a real lack of knowledge and ignorance

    It comes down to the individual - if i held his position - i wouldnt own pacers in WA - in his position - you want to be seen by all participants as totally fair and unbiased and above aboard - that has to be the perception 

    I will give you a couple of purely hypotheticals - what happens if the trainer - who is training his horses or horses - is caught stomach tubing his horses - it gets a little bit awkward doesnt it - it all then comes down to perception from all the other participants 

    What happens if he owns a pacer - who is a brilliant standing start horse - rapidly going through the grades - and at the same time there is a bonafide discussion about changing or reverting the WA Pacing Cup or the Fremantle Cup to a standing start - then what is the perception about that from participants 

    If i held his position - i want to be seen that my integrity was 1 million percent - and i was perceived with no possible conflicts of interest at all - thus for that simple basic  reason  i wouldnt own annd race pacers in WA - even if you are allowed to
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,719 posts
    Markovina said:

    Gilgamesh said:

    Markovina said:

    I just watched the replay - hadnt seen it before


    It was a sensational drive by Gary Hall Jnr - weaved his way through in the back straight - and if he had eased 4 wide at the top of the straight - it would not have won 

    Kyle Harper on the leader - did what any other driver would have done - looked to his outside  - to see the dangers - which horses were making ground on him etc - as for him rolling out under pressure - well horses do that when they are tired and under pressure

    So as far as how the race was run - all good - like 99.7% of all harness races are 

    The only surprising thing about that race - is one of the part owners of the winner is listed as M T Radley - now if that is the CEO of GP ( and im only assuming that - because it only lists initials ) then it should not be allowed under any circumstances - and i dont think it would be allowed in any other state 




    Marko I love some of your tips and thoughts but you come up with some real garbage.

    Look up the ATC hierarchy, the head man, chairman, fist comment in his blog is "20 year race horse owner"

    John Massara was the chairman of Racing NSW, just owns a couple of horses.

    Radley is CEO of a race club, position has no impact on the rules or racing etc. There would be people working in all positions of race clubs that own horses.

    One that I did use to think was a bit of a conflict was Wishart when he was the handicapper giving out tips and from that I assume punting.

    No - its not garbage at all - re a perceived conflict of interest - and your showing a real lack of knowledge and ignorance

    It comes down to the individual - if i held his position - i wouldnt own pacers in WA - in his position - you want to be seen by all participants as totally fair and unbiased and above aboard - that has to be the perception 

    I will give you a couple of purely hypotheticals - what happens if the trainer - who is training his horses or horses - is caught stomach tubing his horses - it gets a little bit awkward doesnt it - it all then comes down to perception from all the other participants 

    What happens if he owns a pacer - who is a brilliant standing start horse - rapidly going through the grades - and at the same time there is a bonafide discussion about changing or reverting the WA Pacing Cup or the Fremantle Cup to a standing start - then what is the perception about that from participants 

    If i held his position - i want to be seen that my integrity was 1 million percent - and i was perceived with no possible conflicts of interest at all - thus for that simple basic  reason  i wouldnt own annd race pacers in WA - even if you are allowed to



    Like I said Marko he is running the race club not a bloody steward. What has it got to do with him if his trainer is caught doing one up? He has nothing to do with the stewarding of races.

    I would much prefer that he has an interest in ownership than he was just a business man who didn't give two hoots about the sport.

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  • jumjum    3,512 posts
    edited August 2022
    I genuinely think you lads will go round in circles with this argument. Both sides have valid points in this. 
    Is Radley's role a paid position.

    Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    7,630 posts
    Yes, of course it is but RWWA run programming, handicapping, stewarding, field selection, integrity and all other aspects of the racing...to put it crudely, GP's job is catering and parking....to suggest even a perception of conflict of interest by owning a horse is as previously stated absolute nonsense. No circle work here Jum.

    Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • SLIPPERGOLDENSLIPPERGOLDEN    7,744 posts

    Never see you comment much on harness and you’ve made a new thread to what looks to me like accuse someone of cheating let alone accuse the wrong person completely

    New thread was because no comment had been made at all regarding plunge so I opened it for discussion which has subsequently proved interesting. No malice aforethought. As sonny correctly observed I did not use the word cheating. Dodgy yes and I still stand by that observation.

    Having said all that hands up and apology for nominating  the wrong driver whose head turned more often than Linda Blair in The Exorcist. At least I was correct saying not normally Emma's style. I still maintain however that the head turns by the driver concerned were over dramatic.
  • AbbysAceAbbysAce    560 posts
    edited August 2022
    Markovina said:

    Absolute rubbish


    There is what is called a perceived conflict of interest

    Just like the former NSW Police Commissioner - the govt and the public werent too impressed when it was revealed that he was a part owner of a couple of gallopers - especially when the trainer of those gallopers got busted on drugs charges

    The perceived conflict of interest - you dont have Ceos of race clubs - part owning competing  horses - you just dont ( if it is in fact him - because it only has initials listed ) 
    J Prentice does seem to draw alot of nice barriers, he must just get lucky.
  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    2,829 posts
    Just some other points on the race in question:

    • This was a heat to qualify for a $100,000 final so not the sort of race to arrange an elaborate set up.
    • If as suggested the driving tactics were pre arranged history will tell you that Rolling Fire would have started much shorter than $10. I cannot recall the winner of any suspect race starting at double figure odds.

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  • G-MacG-Mac    1,569 posts

    Just some other points on the race in question:


    • This was a heat to qualify for a $100,000 final so not the sort of race to arrange an elaborate set up.
    • If as suggested the driving tactics were pre arranged history will tell you that Rolling Fire would have started much shorter than $10. I cannot recall the winner of any suspect race starting at double figure odds.
    Fair point that. Doesn't take much for the corporates to smash the panic button and once one of them does the rest follow.
  • JayJayJayJay    7,630 posts
     i would suspect that the "corporates" would all be cross connected with active algorithms that instantaneously pick up $20 ew on something at 80/1 (similar to 30 pairs of eyes back in the days of a betting ring) and slam dunk the price automatically on a small Tuesday night pool.....the SP of $10 suggests some smallish spec bets? Or am I reading this all wrong?

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  • G-MacG-Mac    1,569 posts
    100% JayJay. I helped a mate plunge a dog of his (he wanted to get 5k on but knew there would be no hope of the price holding up if he went in one go). 5 of us went at the same time on different bookies. Dog was $9 fixed. I put $500 on and the confirmation screen advised me the "price has changes" and now even money. Happened to everyone involved. Best price found was $500 at $4. Everyone else has to take between $2 and $2.20. It started the race at $1.40.

    So a bet doesn't even have to be made, just the notion of putting a good amount on and the algorithms go into panic mode. Not like it was a life changing amount going on either. In saying that, it was a Tuesday afternoon country meet so the red flags would have popped up across the board.

    For those interested, the dog missed the start then circled the field, found interference, dusted itself off and fell in. It was a very long 23 seconds.

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  • JayJayJayJay    7,630 posts
    GMac, I far prefer the "stealth" days of false moustaches and dark glasses as we crept around the ring waiting for the wave of the red handkerchief lol.

    The "$50's into $9.50 lands a huge plunge" call does, however, make for good theatre for the racecaller even if he does dreadfully overuse the term. There was one the week before, can't remember which horse but it was also "sensationally backed" from 10's into whatever.....take with a pinch of salt.

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  • G-MacG-Mac    1,569 posts
    Hahaha, you always get some pelican on Sky making a comment like "they're jumping from trees to back this thing punters" and its gone from 40/1 into 20/1 because an owner's nanna had 5 each way.

    This is the issue with betting online, your account is marked. It's why TAB in NSW is encouraging people to bet from their phone even if in venue or on course. They will give you better prices on selected races on Wednesdays and Saturdays, only if you use your phone. At my local the EBTs are constantly breaking down, there are no tickets available for old school punters, and the cash out machine rarely works. The licensee has advised me that TAB said "we won't be replacing them when they finally break for good"
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    By far the biggest pool GO Tuesday night Race 4 Markam Eyre $1.06 winner mmmmm.
    Smashed every other race of the night.

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts
    Boy is there alot of absolute - false - rubbish comments - by posters re the betting 

    Along the lines of - oh look its only a quiet Tuesday night meeting - and $20 e/w would cut its odds - what world are you living in - obviously these posters their standard bet is 5 or $10 e/w max 

    Both TAB.Com and Tab Touch will let you on  for 10 grand - meaning thats the payout amount if your bet wins - i havent tried them over 10 grand 

    So i would suggest they won plenty on the Rolling Fire plunge 

    Ive had $200 E/W on a pacer at $41 - and 10 minutes later  theve turned it out to $51 - these organisations have got their own form assessors 

    This laughable craap - that someone put $20 on Rolling Fire at  the $80 - and the betting agencies have pannicked and turned the price in - oh dear oh dear - you cant make this stuff up 
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