G'day Punter!

In this Discussion

Who's Online

0 Members & 9 Non Members
No joy in posting this ...none  .....but.....peak of the harness season, couple of weeks after the Cup, the Golden Nugget next week, The Village Kid Sprint at Group 3 this week and the best the Industry can do is  just 8 races and 67 acceptors for Friday night, 5 and 6 horse fields?

Never seen it this bad, ever.....but no need for the Harness Office to panic, the New Business Model needs time to bed in. Without having a really close look at the form, some of Friday nights races will have extremely short priced favourites, $1.10, $1.30  etc.

In 5 years of this new handicapping/programming regime, there has not been a single Friday Night of 10 races, full fields, not one. Not a single KPI has been achieved. Yet anyone who has criticised it has been labelled a quisling, a cancer on the Industry and far worse.

Now spare me all the flannel about the negative norms, doubtless the flunkies will be up and about spruiking what a "cracking night of racing" we have got coming up, the resident town crier down by the palms will be shouting from the empty grandstands that the Restaurants are full of Christmas revelers ....but turnover is falling through the floor, no one is betting on harness racing and the Industry is up a serious creek minus a paddle, now returning less than 40 cents for each dollar outlayed. How can you run a business on such terms? I am sure the Harness Director would have a view on such circumstances.

And no one on earth can convince me that spending $24.7 million of Industry funds on a beached whale of a venue whilst retaining an 800m track is in any sense wise. That money, not yet spent, could be utilised far better than providing a comfy clubhouse for 300 members after flogging off half the farm.

Cameron Brown has a serious task in turning this once great industry around from it's current train wreck status. All those that love the industry await his proposals with great anticipation....no doubt, there will be pain, there must be, even the Gordon geckos might have to suffer a bit  but otherwise, it will be goodnight Irene for the whole shooting match within 5 years.


Comments

  • BetonmeBetonme    208 posts

    I’m weary that the best “innovation” of late is 1177m races, which naturally would never work on our metro track for obvious reasons.

    LightningJake, JimmyPop likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    7,593 posts
    Post on Twitter from Peter Lawrence, 81.9k views, 100's of "likes" and over 70 plus supportive comment:

    Modern day punters have no concept of just how massive the trots used to be. The Daily Double races from Harold Park on a Friday night were broadcast live on the ABC, well before the Sat thoroughbred races were afforded the same. Champion pacers were household names, so much so that Johnny Tapp even released a single about Hondo Grattan, who became the first pacer to win two Inter Dominions when he won his second off a 30m handicap.
    No doubt, with good intentions, the powers that be did away with Aust tradition and decided to mimic US pacing. They moved to all mobile starts and built much bigger, usually 1000m circuits. Combined with the idiotic sprint lane, the idea was that the best horse would always win. It has virtually made all races the equivalent of thoroughbred WFA racing, or worse. 
    The result has been that trotting in Aust has become utterly predictable and boring, especially at the elite level. Blacks A Fake won no less than FIVE Inter Dominions. The winners of the four Inter Dom heats on Friday night, started 1.80, 2.20, 1.02, 1.20. Betting turnover on trotting in Aust has fallen off the cliff, especially when viewed against thoroughbred and greyhound turnover.
    Purists think that WFA racing is king, but punters love handicap racing and trying to decipher possible tactics and variables. The stand start, handicaps, small turning tracks made harness racing a great spectacle, with mid race moves and an uncertainty that appeals to punters.

    savethegame, sonny, JimmyPop likes this post.

  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,687 posts
    Everything about the racing now is so one dimensional. Drivers have completely lost their competitive edge and with good reason, 90% of the time unless somebody decides to do something bonkers the majority of the field can't win.

    I was really enjoying having Russell Betts back on the radio with his analytical view of the races through a deep dive at the sectionals but now he has gone again. The fields are weak, the trainers/drivers are all mates, the conditions of the races lack any form of individuality resulting in "play it again" race after race after race.

    There is zero sense of entertainment about watching it, you have to be happy with playing very small margins if you want to punt on it and with the ever-dwindling numbers it looks like very few want to participate in it.

    I think it's too far gone. Racing will continue but it will end up the way of something like the speedway where only those deeply entrenched will hear the results and pick up the odd ribbon.

    sonny, JimmyPop likes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,867 posts
    edited December 2023
    The big problem with WA Trotting - is West Australians are so apathetic - they are very good whingers - and i dont know why , cost of houses is 50% cheaper than over East , plus we have got sensational weather 

    Now if you compare the town of Young in NSW -  population i looked it up 10.5k , Northam in comparism 6.5k , so Young is a bigger town , and not a racist comment but Young is a  bit of a muslim hot spot , i read a few years back theres 3-4 thousand of them their  , maybe they are Trots punters - hah - hah 

    But do yourself a favour - watch the replay of Race 4 at Young  last Frid night   ( ignore that it says Wagga on the replay it is Young ) - look at the crowd shot in the back straight  , youd  swear it was HP in the Halycon days of the 60s and 70s 

    You see countless NSW and Vic country Pacing Cups in far flung places , and there is a great oncourse attendance , the whole town get behind the event and turn up in droves , when do you see that in WA ?? . I attended several Northam meetings right back to the early 80s , and you would be lucky , really lucky to see 3-5 people in the home straight 

    The other terrific thing with Young , there Pacing Cup was for 60k , and the Big Car Dealership their sponsored it - a local company got right behind the Trots 

    The trouble with quite a few West Australians is that they are great whingers , they are apathetic and very lazy . You take turning your indicator on when turning in your Motor Vehicle over here , its purely optional over here you know  , 50% cant be bothered doing it , who cares about the law , they just do it when they feel like it 

    JimmyPop likes this post.

  • AbbysAceAbbysAce    557 posts
    In WA there are very good crowds always at Collie, Wagin and Bridgetown.

    Pinjarra complex is full most Mondays.

    LightningJake likes this post.

  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    145 posts
    Markovina said:

    The big problem with WA Trotting - is West Australians are so apathetic - they are very good whingers - and i dont know why , cost of houses is 50% cheaper than over East , plus we have got sensational weather 


    Now if you compare the town of Young in NSW -  population i looked it up 10.5k , Northam in comparism 6.5k , so Young is a bigger town , and not a racist comment but Young is a  bit of a muslim hot spot , i read a few years back theres 3-4 thousand of them their  , maybe they are Trots punters - hah - hah 

    But do yourself a favour - watch the replay of Race 4 at Young  last Frid night   ( ignore that it says Wagga on the replay it is Young ) - look at the crowd shot in the back straight  , youd  swear it was HP in the Halycon days of the 60s and 70s 

    You see countless NSW and Vic country Pacing Cups in far flung places , and there is a great oncourse attendance , the whole town get behind the event and turn up in droves , when do you see that in WA ?? . I attended several Northam meetings right back to the early 80s , and you would be lucky , really lucky to see 3-5 people in the home straight 

    The other terrific thing with Young , there Pacing Cup was for 60k , and the Big Car Dealership their sponsored it - a local company got right behind the Trots 

    The trouble with quite a few West Australians is that they are great whingers , they are apathetic and very lazy . You take turning your indicator on when turning in your Motor Vehicle over here , its purely optional over here you know  , 50% cant be bothered doing it , who cares about the law , they just do it when they feel like it 

    wow the biggest sook on here calling the people of WA sooks and lazy, that is so bloody rich. If you don't like the product over here why jump on here and saying anything at all, or are you one of those types that if your not whinging your not happy ???

    Cant_Refuse likes this post.

  • BetonmeBetonme    208 posts
    Markovina said:

    The big problem with WA Trotting - is West Australians are so apathetic - they are very good whingers - and i dont know why , cost of houses is 50% cheaper than over East , plus we have got sensational weather 


    Now if you compare the town of Young in NSW -  population i looked it up 10.5k , Northam in comparism 6.5k , so Young is a bigger town , and not a racist comment but Young is a  bit of a muslim hot spot , i read a few years back theres 3-4 thousand of them their  , maybe they are Trots punters - hah - hah 

    But do yourself a favour - watch the replay of Race 4 at Young  last Frid night   ( ignore that it says Wagga on the replay it is Young ) - look at the crowd shot in the back straight  , youd  swear it was HP in the Halycon days of the 60s and 70s 

    You see countless NSW and Vic country Pacing Cups in far flung places , and there is a great oncourse attendance , the whole town get behind the event and turn up in droves , when do you see that in WA ?? . I attended several Northam meetings right back to the early 80s , and you would be lucky , really lucky to see 3-5 people in the home straight 

    The other terrific thing with Young , there Pacing Cup was for 60k , and the Big Car Dealership their sponsored it - a local company got right behind the Trots 

    The trouble with quite a few West Australians is that they are great whingers , they are apathetic and very lazy . You take turning your indicator on when turning in your Motor Vehicle over here , its purely optional over here you know  , 50% cant be bothered doing it , who cares about the law , they just do it when they feel like it 
    Ok to summarise, we need net migration of muslims to increase around country trotting venues. I'll just put my hazard lights on and walk away.

    Markovina, JayJay, Chopchop43, G-Mac likes this post.

  • MuldoonMuldoon    308 posts
    Gilgamesh said:

    Everything about the racing now is so one dimensional. Drivers have completely lost their competitive edge and with good reason, 90% of the time unless somebody decides to do something bonkers the majority of the field can't win.

    I was really enjoying having Russell Betts back on the radio with his analytical view of the races through a deep dive at the sectionals but now he has gone again. The fields are weak, the trainers/drivers are all mates, the conditions of the races lack any form of individuality resulting in "play it again" race after race after race.

    There is zero sense of entertainment about watching it, you have to be happy with playing very small margins if you want to punt on it and with the ever-dwindling numbers it looks like very few want to participate in it.

    I think it's too far gone. Racing will continue but it will end up the way of something like the speedway where only those deeply entrenched will hear the results and pick up the odd ribbon.

    I read somewhere Betts was critical of something, and then was censured for being critical of the company that stands over the racing, the station and all, so he walked. Good on him for having the conviction not to stand for his over sensitive head body not allowing anything to be scrutinised. Heads in the sand stuff.
  • MuldoonMuldoon    308 posts
    AbbysAce said:

    In WA there are very good crowds always at Collie, Wagin and Bridgetown.


    Pinjarra complex is full most Mondays.
    Whern I lived in Kalgoorlie, always good crowds at the Golden Mile.

    freodockers likes this post.

  • sonnysonny    1,045 posts
    I used to listen 2 entertaining programs  One out one back and Friday morning G.P.. Dont listen Friday mornings any more after Betts walked.. and probably one out one back will get the flick..

  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    812 posts
    JayJay said:

    No joy in posting this ...none  .....but.....peak of the harness season, couple of weeks after the Cup, the Golden Nugget next week, The Village Kid Sprint at Group 3 this week and the best the Industry can do is  just 8 races and 67 acceptors for Friday night, 5 and 6 horse fields?

    Never seen it this bad, ever.....but no need for the Harness Office to panic, the New Business Model needs time to bed in. Without having a really close look at the form, some of Friday nights races will have extremely short priced favourites, $1.10, $1.30  etc.

    In 5 years of this new handicapping/programming regime, there has not been a single Friday Night of 10 races, full fields, not one. Not a single KPI has been achieved. Yet anyone who has criticised it has been labelled a quisling, a cancer on the Industry and far worse.

    Now spare me all the flannel about the negative norms, doubtless the flunkies will be up and about spruiking what a "cracking night of racing" we have got coming up, the resident town crier down by the palms will be shouting from the empty grandstands that the Restaurants are full of Christmas revelers ....but turnover is falling through the floor, no one is betting on harness racing and the Industry is up a serious creek minus a paddle, now returning less than 40 cents for each dollar outlayed. How can you run a business on such terms? I am sure the Harness Director would have a view on such circumstances.

    And no one on earth can convince me that spending $24.7 million of Industry funds on a beached whale of a venue whilst retaining an 800m track is in any sense wise. That money, not yet spent, could be utilised far better than providing a comfy clubhouse for 300 members after flogging off half the farm.

    Cameron Brown has a serious task in turning this once great industry around from it's current train wreck status. All those that love the industry await his proposals with great anticipation....no doubt, there will be pain, there must be, even the Gordon geckos might have to suffer a bit  but otherwise, it will be goodnight Irene for the whole shooting match within 5 years.





    I’ve got a fair few owners from eastern states and when they come over here they say our Friday metro meetings have much bigger crowds than the eastern states metro meetings so I guess it’s a problem everywhere and probably can’t blame our handicapping.

    We go through stages where we have small nights of racing every now and then, happens often in the country aswell but you don’t write about those because it goes against your agenda, in regards to the 40c to the dollar Kellerberrin season average returned 32c to the dollar almost 25% worse

    Cant_Refuse likes this post.

  • sonnysonny    1,045 posts
    Hi Rocket , How much bigger??? 
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    sonny said:

    Hi Rocket , How much bigger??? 

    20 people including stewards towers.


  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    812 posts
    sonny said:

    Hi Rocket , How much bigger??? 




    No idea never been but apparently Menangle is a ghost town
  • sonnysonny    1,045 posts
    Thats a pretty flippant reply.. Does that make G.P a ghost city....
  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    812 posts
    sonny said:

    Thats a pretty flippant reply.. Does that make G.P a ghost city....




    Was just passing on something I’d been told by an owner that frequents multiple tracks, if you’ve had different experiences feel free to share
  • JayJayJayJay    7,593 posts
    Rocket, of the over 15 million dollars that harness is haemorrhaging each year, Gloucester Park Friday night meetings accounted over 9 million dollars of that loss, even before the figures for meeting costs are considered, a return of 40.5 cents in the dollar for FY 2023.

    Central Wheatbelt accounted for $336k of the overall loss returning 36.2 cents in the dollar, not the 32 cents you quote..

    In addition, GP receives around $37,000 per meeting to run the meeting, country clubs receive $6,500.

    When you add in the midweek losses at GP, they account for $11 million of the $15 million loss. Current management will tell you all about turnover on Friday nights and that the restaurants are full of Christmas Revelers (who clearly don't bet)  and all the rest of the standard flannel, but the reality is it is a financial black hole.

    The only agenda here is facts and survival of the Industry. Gloucester Park must perform way above what it is currently doing, it is the premiere club, in the premiere time slot, with the top horses, the top prizemoney, the stars of the Industry each week but the cold hard reality is that is letting the Industry down severely.

    The policy of country club shut downs has a proven track record, it devastated the Industry, eroded its base and drove owners, trainers and breeders into oblivion and there are still people advocating revisiting a proven failure of industry policy.

    The current business model for Harness is broken, it is not working, people are not betting on the product, they are not attending, the media are not remotely interested and it is up to Cameron Brown, given the wide terms of his appointment to come up with a different model. Yes, there are periods when we are light on horses...but in the peak of the season, two weeks after the Pacing Cup...come on....but apparently, nothing to see say some, keep doing what we are doing, it will fix itself.
  • AbbysAceAbbysAce    557 posts
    sonny said:

    Hi Rocket , How much bigger??? 

    Look at where Gloucester Park is? 5 mins from the CBD?

    How far is Melton and Menangle from the CBD? 
  • JayJayJayJay    7,593 posts
    There are over 40,000 permanent residents within the Perth CBD, around 6,000 in Claisebrook and the East Perth Waterfront, a further 6,500 in Langley within an easy stroll of Gloucester Park and 197,000 inbound workers per day to draw on each race night, with Friday (Night?) programs starting around 5.30, ideally placed to draw on these demographics, and in the case of this Friday Night, finishing at 9.10pm.

    freodockers likes this post.

  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    145 posts
    JayJay said:

    There are over 40,000 permanent residents within the Perth CBD, around 6,000 in Claisebrook and the East Perth Waterfront, a further 6,500 in Langley within an easy stroll of Gloucester Park and 197,000 inbound workers per day to draw on each race night, with Friday (Night?) programs starting around 5.30, ideally placed to draw on these demographics, and in the case of this Friday Night, finishing at 9.10pm.


    lets be honest with smart phones and a plethora of betting apps where you can watch the product live, where ever you want , throw in the fact that you have so many alternatives in the metro area as far as a night out with friends and family, there really isn't a need to go to gp, times have changed and I imagine the other major tracks in the nation suffer from the fact you can watch races at the tap of a button

    H-BOMBER likes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,867 posts
    AbbysAce said:

    sonny said:

    Hi Rocket , How much bigger??? 

    Look at where Gloucester Park is? 5 mins from the CBD?

    How far is Melton and Menangle from the CBD? 
    Thats it - chalk and cheese

    I use to live in the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney - HP even in peak hour Frid night traffic was only 20-25 minutes away - or you could catch a train  into the City ( 5-7 minutes ) and then a bus ( 10-15 minutes ) . When i went i didnt own a car , if i won on the punt i caught a taxi home , if i lost i caught the bus and then the train 

    Where as Menangle is over an hour away , you wouldnt even consider going to Menangle- maybe the Miracle Mile if you were super keen but that would be it 
  • JayJayJayJay    7,593 posts
    edited December 2023
    There have always been alternatives in the Metro Area, that is nothing new. 

    But they are not betting on the harness product even with all the apps etc....harness share of overall turnover is under 12% and rapidly falling through the floor.

    So they are tapping their buttons on everything but harness racing, so what does that tell you about the product?

    freodockers likes this post.

  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    145 posts
    JayJay said:

    There have always been alternatives in the Metro Area, that is nothing new. 

    But they are not betting on the harness product even with all the apps etc....harness share of overall turnover is under 12% and rapidly falling through the floor.

    So they are tapping their buttons on everything but harness racing, so what does that tell you about the product?

    all I'm saying is as far as getting a crowd to a race track I think with metro race track or tracks in the greater metro area, I think ya pushing shit up hill due to the fact, there are alternatives as far as entertainment in the area, plus you can also watch the racing, not necessarily punt from the comfort of your phone I've got alot of mates that used to love going to the races/trots 10-15 years ago that would now much prefer just to watch them from either there phone or on tv. Back in the day when I was knee high to a piss pot you actually had to go to the trots to a) have a bet with the bookies or b) actually watch the race

    Cant_Refuse likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    7,593 posts
    Down to 65 with the scratchings of Lusaka and Hoppys Way. Bunbury today 78 acceptors, Narrogin 73 on Saturday, Pinjarra 89 on Monday and 84 for Tuesday mid week at GP, so plenty of horses around

    Of the 12 codes advertised for tonight's meeting, there was no 4yo race even though the Nugget is on next week???

    So, that "dynamic and flexible programming model attuned to the racing population" produces tonight's fiasco but nothing to see, play on, lets blame the trainers or the owners or the weather or most likely, the country clubs. 

    We'll strip some meetings off them to prop up the joint that is flailing about like Kerry O'Keefe's bowling action. Then we'll chuck $24.7 million at them so that 300 members can watch 800m racing in comfort after selling off half the farm.

    freodockers, LightningJake likes this post.

  • JimmyPopJimmyPop    309 posts
    sonny said:

    I used to listen 2 entertaining programs  One out one back and Friday morning G.P.. Dont listen Friday mornings any more after Betts walked.. and probably one out one back will get the flick..


    Bettsy didn't walk, he was pushed. Unfortunately he spoke the truth on a harness racing matter and the RWWA admin didn't like the truth being told on social media.

    Gilgamesh, freodockers, LightningJake likes this post.

  • sonnysonny    1,045 posts
    Thanks Jimmy, I missed that Friday . What was the truth they did not like?? Thank you..
  • BetonmeBetonme    208 posts
    Interesting to hear this, really enjoyed listening to his analysis and opinions. Was an asset to the show.

    PackedMetalPanda, Gilgamesh, sonny likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Betonme said:

    Interesting to hear this, really enjoyed listening to his analysis and opinions. Was an asset to the show.

    Like most assets they destroyed it.

    sonny likes this post.

  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    145 posts
    JayJay said:

    Down to 65 with the scratchings of Lusaka and Hoppys Way. Bunbury today 78 acceptors, Narrogin 73 on Saturday, Pinjarra 89 on Monday and 84 for Tuesday mid week at GP, so plenty of horses around

    Of the 12 codes advertised for tonight's meeting, there was no 4yo race even though the Nugget is on next week???

    So, that "dynamic and flexible programming model attuned to the racing population" produces tonight's fiasco but nothing to see, play on, lets blame the trainers or the owners or the weather or most likely, the country clubs. 

    We'll strip some meetings off them to prop up the joint that is flailing about like Kerry O'Keefe's bowling action. Then we'll chuck $24.7 million at them so that 300 members can watch 800m racing in comfort after selling off half the farm.


    I dont think this has anything to do with anyone avoiding gp as they don't like the place, just my opinion, we don't seem to have the depth to our city class horse pool, our true city class horse seem to get shipped out of the state and the country as soon as they remotely get close to there mark and there isn't that quality coming through at a quick enough rate to replace numbers, I think the heart of the problem lies more with the hwoe system and programming than with gp itself
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts

    JayJay said:

    Down to 65 with the scratchings of Lusaka and Hoppys Way. Bunbury today 78 acceptors, Narrogin 73 on Saturday, Pinjarra 89 on Monday and 84 for Tuesday mid week at GP, so plenty of horses around

    Of the 12 codes advertised for tonight's meeting, there was no 4yo race even though the Nugget is on next week???

    So, that "dynamic and flexible programming model attuned to the racing population" produces tonight's fiasco but nothing to see, play on, lets blame the trainers or the owners or the weather or most likely, the country clubs. 

    We'll strip some meetings off them to prop up the joint that is flailing about like Kerry O'Keefe's bowling action. Then we'll chuck $24.7 million at them so that 300 members can watch 800m racing in comfort after selling off half the farm.


    I dont think this has anything to do with anyone avoiding gp as they don't like the place, just my opinion, we don't seem to have the depth to our city class horse pool, our true city class horse seem to get shipped out of the state and the country as soon as they remotely get close to there mark and there isn't that quality coming through at a quick enough rate to replace numbers, I think the heart of the problem lies more with the hwoe system and programming than with gp itself
    They been shipping horses out of WA to US for donkeys years.
Sign In or Register to comment.