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Another Cracking Programme At GP Friday Night

Harness & Greyhounds
Plenty of room in the stalls for the much lauded NBM Chickens seeking a place to roost this Friday night.

Just 63 starters, 3 of whom are doubling up from tonight.

All the usual suspects will be tuning their vocal chords ready to pronounce another "cracking night of racing" at Headquarters.

With an allocation from RWWA of $37,000 to run the meeting, it is costing the Industry $587 per starter BEFORE any stakes are paid out.

Some  who dared to say that this NBM disaster was coming was got labelled cancerous growths on the industry, negative norms or all manner of other names for simply stating the facts, the bleeding obvious facts.

The usual nonsense will be trotted out by the Geckos, it's a seasonal thing, it happens every year etc....which is frankly complete and utter B/S.

What sort of programming/handicapping/scheduling disaster have we been lead into in the last 5 years? If this is where the premier metro meeting  in the peak of the racing season has gotten to....and this isn't a one off of late, then optimistic predictions of the industry making it to the next decade are exactly that....very optimistic. 

Those that have lead us down this road must face the consequences, heads must roll.

Comments

  • Cant_RefuseCant_Refuse    191 posts
    We need to get you and Wazza on the committees. Give them a kick up the bum and sort this out
  • warrenrobinsonwarrenrobinson    57 posts
    The only problem is that they want yes men and we aren't that. fact

    AbbysAce, VillageKid likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    7,593 posts
    Oh for sure, I think you are onto something huge there Mr Refuse......and a smart man like yourself, full of ideas and characteristically pithy responses, might be just the person to join us. I sense a great team in the making.

    warrenrobinson likes this post.

  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,687 posts
    At a quick look more acceptors today than on Sat??

    Clearly the "handicapping" system has failed on any measure you would put it up against

    VillageKid likes this post.

  • Cant_RefuseCant_Refuse    191 posts
    JayJay said:

    Oh for sure, I think you are onto something huge there Mr Refuse......and a smart man like yourself, full of ideas and characteristically pithy responses, might be just the person to join us. I sense a great team in the making.


    fact
  • JayJayJayJay    7,593 posts
    63 going around at HQ, 61 down at Busselton on Friday Night.

    Meeting costs paid out by RWWA to run the meeting at GP is around $37,000 whilst Busselton Club receives $6000. 

    Before any stakes are paid out (as owners, trainers and drivers eagerly await news of when they will be paid for the New Years Day meeting at Busselton), that works out at a $587 cost per  starter at GP versus $99 per starter at Busselton.

    Stakes pay out is $170,360 at GP  versus $49,256 at Busselton.

    In addition, all horses placed 5th to 8th receive (from the club, not RWWA) a $100 travel subsidy paid on the night. Busselton gate takings will dwarf any takings from Gloucester Park.

    As stated before, TAB touch win pools are merely an indication, a trend of overall turnover but last Friday Night the average win pool on TAB touch at GP was $6918 versus Busselton $6042 (Pinjarra on the Monday was $6790). Yes, the "big" gamblers go with the corporates but it is the bread and butter punter that we need and that we have lost, they bet with TABtouch and there is little difference in the win pool figures.

    So, the myth perpetuated by some that country clubs are loss making blackholes to the Industry is just that...a myth. Last Financial year, GP returned 40.5 cents in the dollar on stakes paid wheras Busselton returned 55.8 cents in the dollar. Based on the on course crowds and Tote figures for this season, I suspect the gap will be much wider.

    The costs of maintaining the footprint of harness racing in the regions is small compared to the real anchor around the Industry's neck.
  • FrogFrog    15 posts
    10 trials Pinjarra, maybe we should start betting on them.

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  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    812 posts
    JayJay said:

    63 going around at HQ, 61 down at Busselton on Friday Night.

    Meeting costs paid out by RWWA to run the meeting at GP is around $37,000 whilst Busselton Club receives $6000. 

    Before any stakes are paid out (as owners, trainers and drivers eagerly await news of when they will be paid for the New Years Day meeting at Busselton), that works out at a $587 cost per  starter at GP versus $99 per starter at Busselton.

    Stakes pay out is $170,360 at GP  versus $49,256 at Busselton.

    In addition, all horses placed 5th to 8th receive (from the club, not RWWA) a $100 travel subsidy paid on the night. Busselton gate takings will dwarf any takings from Gloucester Park.

    As stated before, TAB touch win pools are merely an indication, a trend of overall turnover but last Friday Night the average win pool on TAB touch at GP was $6918 versus Busselton $6042 (Pinjarra on the Monday was $6790). Yes, the "big" gamblers go with the corporates but it is the bread and butter punter that we need and that we have lost, they bet with TABtouch and there is little difference in the win pool figures.

    So, the myth perpetuated by some that country clubs are loss making blackholes to the Industry is just that...a myth. Last Financial year, GP returned 40.5 cents in the dollar on stakes paid wheras Busselton returned 55.8 cents in the dollar. Based on the on course crowds and Tote figures for this season, I suspect the gap will be much wider.

    The costs of maintaining the footprint of harness racing in the regions is small compared to the real anchor around the Industry's neck.



    We must be being shown different figures, what I’ve seen contradicts what you’re saying
  • warrenrobinsonwarrenrobinson    57 posts
    Must be figures from propaganda central.

    LightningJake likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    7,593 posts
    So RWWA's figures on revenue generated as a percentage of stakes paid for each club are incorrect?

    The numbers and graphs presented by Cameron Brown at the Industry Outreach sessions are incorrect? 

    The RWWA grant figures provided to clubs as per the Industry Status Reports are incorrect ?

    Trends in Industry percentage turnover are incorrect?

    The advertised stakes are incorrect? The Tabtouch win pool figures are incorrect? 

    The 63 acceptors for 8 races compared to the 99 that went around at the corresponding meeting last year are incorrect?
  • AbbysAceAbbysAce    557 posts
    Where is M Radley?

    Is he over the East spruiking to the trainers about the Nullabor?

    Why isnt there country front races programmed on a Friday night , attempt to make it up to 10?

    Or maybe a short course 2096mt stand?

    Or maybe we can bet on the pony races? Or thats right , they rarely even have them.
  • JayJayJayJay    7,593 posts
    Possibly at Dan Murphy's seeking out cheap blocks of Jack Daniels and Coke to restock the GP bar if the latest slapdown of GP management on Facebook is to be believed.
  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    812 posts
    JayJay said:

    So RWWA's figures on revenue generated as a percentage of stakes paid for each club are incorrect?

    The numbers and graphs presented by Cameron Brown at the Industry Outreach sessions are incorrect? 

    The RWWA grant figures provided to clubs as per the Industry Status Reports are incorrect ?

    Trends in Industry percentage turnover are incorrect?

    The advertised stakes are incorrect? The Tabtouch win pool figures are incorrect? 

    The 63 acceptors for 8 races compared to the 99 that went around at the corresponding meeting last year are incorrect?



    Cam Brown is the one that showed me the figures, so not sure
  • JayJayJayJay    7,593 posts
    Well, I am also not sure then. All I have quoted on here are bonafide numbers as made available either to me in meetings either at RWWA, or Dumas House or from publicly available sources such as the Annual Status Reports published by RWWA.

    I have never made anything up or made suppositions based on what I think. For whatever differences of views or opinions we may have, and they are probably vast, I am sure you are the same. You don't make stuff up.

    The numbers for Busselton for FY 2023 I must correct. I quoted 55.8 cents in the dollar return on revenue on stakes paid but didn't check carefully enough .....the actual figure is 58.1 cents in the dollar. The quoted figure for GP Friday Night of 40.5 cents is correct. GP midweek returns for 2023 (RWWA's Financial Year runs July to July I believe) is 56.8 cents in the dollar. Neither of those figures takes into account grants provided by RWWA to run the meetings, which is a further $3.7 million for GP's approx 100 meetings (thus the 37,000 average per meeting) and the $6,000 or $6,500 figure per meeting provided to the likes of Busselton and Collie. 

    The percentage of overall turnover attributable to Harness was quoted at 12% but in discussions with Cameron Brown and Ian Edwards at a meeting on October 31st at Hasler drive, we were informed that both the return on stakes paid had fallen into the high 30 cents per dollar and the overall harness percentage of turnover was well below 12%. 

    That's all I can say really....I wish it wasn't so but that is where we are at.There is a "built in' already agreed upon stakes rise due this year, one which the board decided to stay with in spite of declining figures, but after that, all guarantees are out.

    If I thought for a millisecond that a $24.7 million dollar input of RWWA Industry Funds into the development proposal at Gloucester Park would kick start or revitalise our Industry, then I would support it in a flash but I ask, hand on heart, does anyone actually really believe that selling off half the farm and building a new "theatre" on the river side of the track whilst retaining an 800m circuit with 10 across the front racing is the panacea our Industry requires to prevent it sliding into oblivion?

    Cameron Brown is carrying the weight of the Industry on his shoulders in the job he has taken on. Good luck to him, he needs to get it right and I hope like hell that he does.

  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    145 posts
    Well what would kick start or revitalise the industry at the moment , I see the same comment re Gloucester Park every week but very little to the point of what the industry needs to do to turn the corner and grow as a product
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,687 posts

    Well what would kick start or revitalise the industry at the moment , I see the same comment re Gloucester Park every week but very little to the point of what the industry needs to do to turn the corner and grow as a product




    Sort out the handicapping as a start point.

    People want to go where they can win races. 82 starters on the tuesday card and it was actualy pretty entertaining, no stars, some pretty slow times but there were some moves, run on winners.

    63 acceptors for friday. We were told at the start of all this the system was going to be dynamic, how about programming some lower class races on a friday, even for a tuesday night stake if you have to, get some different people there. The races they are putting on week after week and not getting nom's clearly arent working.

    Friday nights were set up for the big dogs, this is what can happen when you have alienated such a large group. When the big stables have a dip, you now have nothing behind it.

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  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    812 posts
    Gilgamesh said:

    Well what would kick start or revitalise the industry at the moment , I see the same comment re Gloucester Park every week but very little to the point of what the industry needs to do to turn the corner and grow as a product




    Sort out the handicapping as a start point.

    People want to go where they can win races. 82 starters on the tuesday card and it was actualy pretty entertaining, no stars, some pretty slow times but there were some moves, run on winners.

    63 acceptors for friday. We were told at the start of all this the system was going to be dynamic, how about programming some lower class races on a friday, even for a tuesday night stake if you have to, get some different people there. The races they are putting on week after week and not getting nom's clearly arent working.

    Friday nights were set up for the big dogs, this is what can happen when you have alienated such a large group. When the big stables have a dip, you now have nothing behind it.




    Not sure I agree with it being set up for the big dogs, just is what it is the professional stables will adapt regardless, put a maiden on the metro card every Friday and we start buying bulk maidens
  • JayJayJayJay    7,593 posts
    edited January 10
    For about the hundredth time.........handicapping, programming, scheduling, heats and or preludes, restoration of some carnivals, a bigger track, integrity, promotion, an on course stabling and training centre, restructure the stakes to build from the bottom up, not from the top down, a fluent and sequential Carnival Of Country Cups.....that might do for starters.

    And if you have been reading and following all the various threads for the past five years from multiple posters, they are generally things that may help regain the former rusted on punters, patrons and participants whilst providing some semblance of a future for younger participants.

    You see the same comment re GP because that is the reality of an Industry falling off a cliff....no one is making anything up, the numbers don't lie.

    freodockers, LightningJake, VillageKid likes this post.

  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    812 posts
    JayJay said:

    For about the hundredth time.........handicapping, programming, scheduling, heats and or preludes, restoration of some carnivals, a bigger track, integrity, promotion, an on course stabling and training centre, restructure the stakes to build from the bottom up, not from the top down, a fluent and sequential Carnival Of Country Cups.....that might do for starters.

    And if you have been reading and following all the various threads for the past five years from multiple posters, they are generally things that may help regain the former rusted on punters, patrons and participants whilst providing some semblance of a future for younger participants.

    You see the same comment re GP because that is the reality of an Industry falling off a cliff....no one is making anything up, the numbers don't lie.



    Agree with some on course stabling, have been saying it forever that it’s an absolute no brainer

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  • ashleighmpashleighmp    24 posts
    edited January 10

    Gilgamesh said:

    Well what would kick start or revitalise the industry at the moment , I see the same comment re Gloucester Park every week but very little to the point of what the industry needs to do to turn the corner and grow as a product




    Sort out the handicapping as a start point.

    People want to go where they can win races. 82 starters on the tuesday card and it was actualy pretty entertaining, no stars, some pretty slow times but there were some moves, run on winners.

    63 acceptors for friday. We were told at the start of all this the system was going to be dynamic, how about programming some lower class races on a friday, even for a tuesday night stake if you have to, get some different people there. The races they are putting on week after week and not getting nom's clearly arent working.

    Friday nights were set up for the big dogs, this is what can happen when you have alienated such a large group. When the big stables have a dip, you now have nothing behind it.




    Not sure I agree with it being set up for the big dogs, just is what it is the professional stables will adapt regardless, put a maiden on the metro card every Friday and we start buying bulk maidens



    You better not (insert punch emoji)

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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,687 posts
    Hall 0
    Bond 0
    Brenan 0
    Hayman 1
    J Prentice 1
    Reed 1
    Decampo 2
    Bell 2
    Edgerton-Green 2

    To name a few.

    I would say the question needs to be asked why do these stables not have more horses working their way through to friday night racing? System not progressing horses properly??

    I feel those numbers show there is still plenty of room/requirement for the hobby trainer.

    In terms of it being set up for the big boys i guess i mean more set up for a better grade of horse. With the almost abandonment of stands, almost total leaning to random draws it lends itself for the expensive buy to come through and just beat up it's way through the system creating boring racing, short favourites and IMO lending itself to people not wanting to race in that company/look for that type of horse.

    Plenty of hobby trainers banging their way around Busso/Albany-again just opinion but if you were looking to do it more as ypur interest than profession it would be more fun poking around those tracks with a cheapy in races you feel you could be competitive where as in the past you would have seen those people grabbing a C3-C5 type horse and trying to win a race or two in town.
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,687 posts
    It's why we have these 5 horse FFA's. Why keep a FFA horse here that is not absolute top line when there is little to no variety in the type of race you are going to have to contest.

    You have zero chance of getting an edge be that through having the best mannors in a stand, having a handicap advantage in a stand or knowing that every couple of weeks you might at least get a draw advantage on your more talented rivals.

    Who wants to keep a horse here to be a whipping boy for a top liner???

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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,687 posts
    And you are 100% right rocket yourself, Hall, Team Bond aren't just winning races because you have the best horses, you win because you are good trainers.

    That's why it was frustrating you threw the toys out of the Cot when something like dollars last 3 gets present as atleast an ocasional option for handicapping races. They are still paying out the same amount of prizemoney, there will still be the same amount of winners at GP on a friday night. All it does is present the option for more connections to be driving in to GP with at least some feeling like they might be a chance as opposed to 90% of races where they are practically run (from a tactical view point) once the drivers have done their interviews in the birdcage.

    Stands, $last 3 didnt stop someone like JTW from dominating and the top end of town now would adapt just as well.
  • sonnysonny    1,045 posts
    Hi Gilga, Good horses make good trainers look better..imo..

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  • JayJayJayJay    7,593 posts
    For those with a bit of time on their hands, Marc Lambourne has written a broad ranging article that covers the current malaise facing our industry and racing in general, and saves a special serve for the so called "corporate bookmakers"....using the term "bookmaker" for these primarily overseas owned companies is one of the great abuses of language ever. Comments on handicapping particularly pertinent to Harness Racing.


    In my opinion, one of the best articles I have read.


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  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    812 posts
    Gilgamesh said:

    And you are 100% right rocket yourself, Hall, Team Bond aren't just winning races because you have the best horses, you win because you are good trainers.

    That's why it was frustrating you threw the toys out of the Cot when something like dollars last 3 gets present as atleast an ocasional option for handicapping races. They are still paying out the same amount of prizemoney, there will still be the same amount of winners at GP on a friday night. All it does is present the option for more connections to be driving in to GP with at least some feeling like they might be a chance as opposed to 90% of races where they are practically run (from a tactical view point) once the drivers have done their interviews in the birdcage.

    Stands, $last 3 didnt stop someone like JTW from dominating and the top end of town now would adapt just as well.




    I’m not against $L3 and never have been, what I am against is every race being $L3 and not alternating with rbd in my opinion $L3 races really shaft your medium tier horses.

    An average but fair horse that runs a place one week from a good draw is then almost non competitive for the next 3 weeks from guaranteed middle row draws. Atleast if there’s a mix of both we as trainers can pick and choose

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  • AbbysAceAbbysAce    557 posts
    This handicapping system hasnt worked, and they havent made any adjustments.

    At least if they go to the NR system , if a horse was for sale in the east you can see what horses it would be racing against if purchased and brought to WA.

    L5. under $4000, $8000, $12000, $20000, RBD you cop all the high priced out of form purchases and they draw 1.

    No thanks = No purchase = 6 horse fields , 8 race programmes

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,867 posts
    Gilgamesh said:

    Hall 0
    Bond 0
    Brenan 0
    Hayman 1
    J Prentice 1
    Reed 1
    Decampo 2
    Bell 2
    Edgerton-Green 2

    To name a few.

    I would say the question needs to be asked why do these stables not have more horses working their way through to friday night racing? System not progressing horses properly??

    I feel those numbers show there is still plenty of room/requirement for the hobby trainer.

    In terms of it being set up for the big boys i guess i mean more set up for a better grade of horse. With the almost abandonment of stands, almost total leaning to random draws it lends itself for the expensive buy to come through and just beat up it's way through the system creating boring racing, short favourites and IMO lending itself to people not wanting to race in that company/look for that type of horse.

    Plenty of hobby trainers banging their way around Busso/Albany-again just opinion but if you were looking to do it more as ypur interest than profession it would be more fun poking around those tracks with a cheapy in races you feel you could be competitive where as in the past you would have seen those people grabbing a C3-C5 type horse and trying to win a race or two in town.

    First and foremost , Trotting Aust wide is in the doldrums that is fact , losing money in alot of states and thats why they introduced  those shocking 1200 metre races because they are desperate for a fix or a quick fix 

    Posters  are too 1 sided in their views , handicapping is the magic wand to fix WA - nope , if you follow it Aust wide there are pleny of tracks over East there is a procession of odds on favourites winning , and there are holes galore in the NR system if you look at it fairly and unbiasedly- which very few on this site do

    Honestly you put up the fact about certain trainers- the stats - some of the excuses made for WA by certain posters are borderline pathetic  - you can blame head office i dont - but there is very little interst in Country WA  for  people to train horses - thats why the backbone of the WA industry are the top 8-10 trainers 

    You look at Broken Hill in the middle of nowhere - they had a Non Tab meeting a week or 2 back  5 or 6 races at 3k a race - they do that about half a dozen times a year , ive stayed at Broken Hill watched them work their horses early in the morning to beat the afternoon wind . So i would suggest that all they have to look forward to is 6 non tab meetings yet theres 35-40 pacers being trained in that town , why doesnt that happen in Kalgoorlie a similiar town, because there is no interest 

    Mildura again in the middle of no where , there are stacks of hobby trainers with their 1-3 very ordinary horses , thats why they get all those meetings , because they have got good  horse numbers 

    Bathurst - 4 hours from Sydney , the old saying was - if you havent got horse shitt in your driveway in Bathurst , then you are a nobody , again the Central West of NSW , Bathurst , Orange ,Parkes , Dubbo , Blayney , you have tremendous enthusiatic interest for Trotting , thus great horse number - and thus plenty of meetings 

    So yes Trotting Aust wide is in the doldrums , but the big advantage over East , is they have a stack more enthusiatic hobby trainers who love to have their 1-3 horses 

    You take the case of the poster Aussie Battler , there are 100s and hundreds and hundreds of men and women like that with their 2-3 horses - and that all comes back to a massive lack of interest in WA for trotting 

    I come back to the fact in B/Hill 30-40 pacers are being trained their for 5-6 Non TAB meetings - why doesnt that happen in  any WA remote town - because there is no interest
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Kalgoorlie, Cunderdin, Wyalcatchem, Merredin, Trayning all lost interest very quickly.

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  • JayJayJayJay    7,593 posts
    Last meeting at Broken Hill had 18 local horses engaged from 6 different trainers across the 5 races.

    It doesn't happen in Kalgoorlie any more because, off a much larger base than 18 horses, RWWA shut the show down.

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