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  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    868 posts
    JayJay said:

    The HROA seem to be working well, branched off because no one had confidence or wanted to support Botra, obviously more approachable now Donald has taken over.
    No secret the industry is in decline which is why people are pushing for change but the fossils don’t want it



    The HROA "branched off" probably before you were born Rocket, don't know the exact date but 30 plus years ago probably, long before any of those associated with BOTRA's leadership both now and in the past 20 years were even on the committee. It was not an incorporated body for about two decades. It would be helpful if you dealt in facts, not in jaundiced opinions.

    Be interested to see your "blueprint" for change...may have to phone a friend....and even more interested to see how those changes will turn around facts like harness's share of overall turnover at just 11%, GP operating at under 40 cents in the dollar on a Friday night with the exhilarating racing that those in power seem to enjoy so much but which punters reject entirely. 

    The reality is the product is broken. Those that love GSL 1 and win RBD racing with $1.10 favourites every Friday Night and benefit hugely from that totally predictable style of racing (see above two posts) in front of 80 patrons should make their hay while the sun shines because the days of a heavily subsidised industry are very numbered.



    It may well of but had been stagnant for a long time and is now very much active again. Is GP not our best performing track any day any time slot in comparison to whoever else would race on such time?
  • Cant_RefuseCant_Refuse    198 posts

    The only way forward is for a parliamentary inquiry into RWWA'S management into Harness Racing and throw one into the management of Gloucester Park it's the only way to the truth.


    Your very butt hurt about GP management. Did you not get hugged enough as a kid?

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  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    868 posts

    The only way forward is for a parliamentary inquiry into RWWA'S management into Harness Racing and throw one into the management of Gloucester Park it's the only way to the truth.


    Your very butt hurt about GP management. Did you not get hugged enough as a kid?



    The absolute definition of having an agenda

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  • JayJayJayJay    7,764 posts
    Rocket, of course GP is our ''best performing track" ......as it should be, as is Menangle in NSW, as is Melton in Victoria, as is Albion Park in Queensland  etc.....but only in gross turnover terms. Prime metro tracks simply have to be the highest, they have the most meetings, they have highest profile, in GP's case historical profile, they pay the highest stakes, have the best horses, the best drivers and so on and they should be operating at such a level as to 'carry' the rest of the Industry. The Industry did in the past, and should into the future, depend on them.

    But therein lies the problem. On a revenue generated versus stakes paid basis, GP is a monstrous financial blackhole for the Industry. As stated here on many occasions, whatever turnover it is generating is falling tragically short of financial viability. It is seriously under performing as evidenced by Harness's share of overall turnover falling to less than 11%.

    Here again, the numbers don't lie. For the financial year 22/23, Gloucester Park Friday Metro Meetings paid out $15,188,250 whist generating $6,153,883 in turnover revenue. That represents a return of 40.5 cents in the dollar. At the Industry Forums, Cameron Brown said the current figures are a lot worse than that, with turnover falling off rapidly post the covid inspired turnover sugar hit. The GP midweek figure, on much lower stakes and larger average fields, is 56.8 cents in the dollar. In any terms, that is unsustainable business practice that is degenerating even further.

    Furthermore, GP also soaks up another $3.7 million per annum in meeting fees paid by RWWA to actually conduct the meeting. On stakes pay out alone across the entire industry encompassing all tracks and clubs, excluding meeting fees, for FY 22/23, $29,316,350 dollars was paid out for income generation of $14,240,494, a nett loss of $15,075,856 of which $10,716,320 is directly attributable to Gloucester Park (the 101 Metro and Midweek meetings inclusively). 

    The rest of the loss of $4,359,536 arises from ALL of the other 156 meetings run at every other track and club in WA. Just for comparison, Busselton's 5 meetings paid out $203,100 whilst generating $117,989, a tiny cost by comparison of $85,111 to keep the industry alive in that region. Busselton's return is 58.1 cents in the dollar. (Pinjarra 59.4, Wagin 55.3, Narrogin 54.3, Albany 60.5, others such as Bridetown and Williams are lower but based on just 2 meetings per annum or in some instances, just the one when weather intervenes).

    So statistics and turnover figures often quoted about GP are frequently only what they want gullible people to believe. On any measure, it is seriously under performing, it is not serving the Industry well and it attracts almost no one to its meetings. It to is a victim of the appalling product that Harness has served up for ages, the ridiculously short $1.10 favourites drawn gate 1 etc (remember the $2.20 to $1.80 harness favourite sweet spot) and which has been exacerbated by the completely failed New Business Model of handicapping and programming which has failed to achieve any of it's KPI's.

    One final fact.....the FFA and the Open 3 Year old race on Friday Night had a total of 10 horses who competed for the $52,000 in stakes and turnover was predictably dismal. The entire 7 race programme at Bridgetown last Sunday raced for $45,500 and engaged 69 horses. And the promoted solution to all our Harness ills is to close down these tracks? I will never be convinced that reducing the size of our Industry will fix our current insolvent status. The people asking us to believe that, have been responsible for driving down Harness's overall share of turnover over time  to a disastrous 11%, and falling.No matter what numbers you look at, the stark reality is that punters are not betting on the product. It is broken. perhaps irreparably so.

    The above are the facts, the official numbers supplied by RWWA, not opinions with associated ageist name calling , just rent free facts.

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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,793 posts

    JayJay said:

    The HROA seem to be working well, branched off because no one had confidence or wanted to support Botra, obviously more approachable now Donald has taken over.
    No secret the industry is in decline which is why people are pushing for change but the fossils don’t want it



    The HROA "branched off" probably before you were born Rocket, don't know the exact date but 30 plus years ago probably, long before any of those associated with BOTRA's leadership both now and in the past 20 years were even on the committee. It was not an incorporated body for about two decades. It would be helpful if you dealt in facts, not in jaundiced opinions.

    Be interested to see your "blueprint" for change...may have to phone a friend....and even more interested to see how those changes will turn around facts like harness's share of overall turnover at just 11%, GP operating at under 40 cents in the dollar on a Friday night with the exhilarating racing that those in power seem to enjoy so much but which punters reject entirely. 

    The reality is the product is broken. Those that love GSL 1 and win RBD racing with $1.10 favourites every Friday Night and benefit hugely from that totally predictable style of racing (see above two posts) in front of 80 patrons should make their hay while the sun shines because the days of a heavily subsidised industry are very numbered.



    It may well of but had been stagnant for a long time and is now very much active again. Is GP not our best performing track any day any time slot in comparison to whoever else would race on such time?



    Define best performing.

    Yes Gloucester Park is the strongest turnover track in WA.

    Also yes Gloucester Park is by miles and miles the biggest loss maker in WA.

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  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    868 posts
    You’re missing my point. If we raced Sunday at Gloucester Park same programming same horses same stakes same fields as you’d have at Collie etc the turnover is higher at GP which in simple terms means it’s more profitable to race at Gp. Forget about Friday and metro stakes it’s irrelevant to the argument

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,975 posts
    Just one question - because fixed odds betting and Corp bookmaker numbers completely change the landscape 

    But it was quoted re GP - Stakemoney paid out 15.19k milion on turnover of 6.15 million turnover 

    My question is - that turnover figure of 6.15 million - what comprises that - is that just Tote turnover - or does it include all the fixed odds betting 

    You divide 6.15  mill by 52 meetings thats 118k per meeting divided by 10 races thats 12k a race - they have to be tote figures 

    Who bets on the tote - even a punter who has $35 e/w on something he or she is not going to put it on the tote 
  • JayJayJayJay    7,764 posts
    No, incorrect the $6 million dollar figure is "revenue generated" (i.e profit) from wagering, all sources, it is not a turnover figure. It is the nett amount generated for the Industry from outlaying the $15 million in stakes.

    As far as racing Collie Meetings at GP on a Sunday, your statement is just supposition, it is not a fact. There is no factual data to either support or deny your statement.

    Forget about Friday and metro stakes, it is irrelevant? Really, cooking 9 million bucks a year is irrelevant? 

    A bit like people saying the TABtouch win pools are irrelevant....yes, it is readily acknowledged that TABtouch pools show only a trend and are far from the big picture, never been in dispute ....But ....the win pools on 9 races at Ascot on Saturday totalled $393.6k versus GP on Friday night with 10 races totalled just $65k. $44k average win pool per race versus $6.5k. Is it not the product itself that has become irrelevant? 7 leaders win, 3 from outside the leader win, zero mid race moves, 2 five horse fields, 5 odds on favourites in front of 100 patrons?

    Can just imagine those Collie Meetings being run at GP on a Sunday.....the Coalfields Highway would be gridlocked with all those patrons from Collie scuttling along to GP packing the joint out? That would be another 5 or 6 hundred patrons that would never ever attend a meeting again.
  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    868 posts
    JayJay said:

    No, incorrect the $6 million dollar figure is "revenue generated" (i.e profit) from wagering, all sources, it is not a turnover figure. It is the nett amount generated for the Industry from outlaying the $15 million in stakes.

    As far as racing Collie Meetings at GP on a Sunday, your statement is just supposition, it is not a fact. There is no factual data to either support or deny your statement.

    Forget about Friday and metro stakes, it is irrelevant? Really, cooking 9 million bucks a year is irrelevant? 

    A bit like people saying the TABtouch win pools are irrelevant....yes, it is readily acknowledged that TABtouch pools show only a trend and are far from the big picture, never been in dispute ....But ....the win pools on 9 races at Ascot on Saturday totalled $393.6k versus GP on Friday night with 10 races totalled just $65k. $44k average win pool per race versus $6.5k. Is it not the product itself that has become irrelevant? 7 leaders win, 3 from outside the leader win, zero mid race moves, 2 five horse fields, 5 odds on favourites in front of 100 patrons?

    Can just imagine those Collie Meetings being run at GP on a Sunday.....the Coalfields Highway would be gridlocked with all those patrons from Collie scuttling along to GP packing the joint out? That would be another 5 or 6 hundred patrons that would never ever attend a meeting again.



    Jesus this just tells me how far off the mark you are in regards to all this. No wonder you’re fighting the good fight for what you believe in

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  • FrogFrog    32 posts
    I think your thinking of covid times.
    That was dreamtime.
    If every meeting was at Pinjarra or Bunbury it would of been the same results.
    Bunbury was getting $90 k in Betfair covid Saturday nights. ($10 k super helped)
    RWWA had a chance to get Bunbury every Wednesday morning 11.20am on Sky 1
    and if they had 10 races it would of been the best turnover meeting of the week. It was 
    the best return on investment track until they fixed the lights to stuff that.

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,975 posts
    Talking about turnover , tonight Canberra Pacing Cup 30k , ok field , very exciting race , Grimson had the fave ran 3rd 

    So 9.30pm on a Sunday night at Canberra , there was a 77k jackpot in the 1st 4 - wasnt from preceeding races , must have just been allocated from prior trots meetings 1st 4s not won , or whatever 

    Anyhow the 1st 4 pool for the Canberra Cup tonight totalled 270k 
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,793 posts
    edited March 17
    In 2024 you can bet on just about any event you can think of.

    What are you most likely to want to bet on?? Something you have a firm opinion/view on.

    How are you likely to form that view?? Follow the sport/event closely.

    Why are you following that sport/event?? Because you enjoy it, you find it intriguing, ypu find it entertaining.

    Having followed the sport for around 30 years now and having it be at times my number 1 interest at best i would describe setting the time aside to watch the GP races, even on replay thst you can get done in about half an hour a chore, more accurately i'd say its more entertaining to watch the grass grow.

    So how is one expected to be betting on this product??

    Off the track you find better atmosphere at a cemetery.

    On the track you need only watch the first 15secs of a race then skip to the last maybe 40, how exciting.

    Rocket it does no good to your argument to refer to those that advicate for country racing as fossils when yourself and others of your demographic are more than happy to continue having metro racing on that completely outdated metro race track. The horses simply go too fast at that level now for it to be viable.

    I do get what your saying re holding say Kellerberrin rype meets at GP. The big problem i see is you will lose participants and once again shrink the pool of not only those that race but they few that are left that follow/bet/invest in the sport.

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  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    868 posts
    Gilgamesh said:

    In 2024 you can bet on just about any event you can think of.

    What are you most likely to want to bet on?? Something you have a firm opinion/view on.

    How are you likely to form that view?? Follow the sport/event closely.

    Why are you following that sport/event?? Because you enjoy it, you find it intriguing, ypu find it entertaining.

    Having followed the sport for around 30 years now and having it be at times my number 1 interest at best i would describe setting the time aside to watch the GP races, even on replay thst you can get done in about half an hour a chore, more accurately i'd say its more entertaining to watch the grass grow.

    So how is one expected to be betting on this product??

    Off the track you find better atmosphere at a cemetery.

    On the track you need only watch the first 15secs of a race then skip to the last maybe 40, how exciting.

    Rocket it does no good to your argument to refer to those that advicate for country racing as fossils when yourself and others of your demographic are more than happy to continue having metro racing on that completely outdated metro race track. The horses simply go too fast at that level now for it to be viable.

    I do get what your saying re holding say Kellerberrin rype meets at GP. The big problem i see is you will lose participants and once again shrink the pool of not only those that race but they few that are left that follow/bet/invest in the sport.




    That’s fine that you don’t enjoy pacing anymore people change, others do enjoy betting on it and from figures like I said previously they enjoy betting at GP more than any other track in WA and from memory it’s either the highest or second highest turnover track in Aus. Any time slot and any day.

    In regards to Kellerberrin the participants that race there would be 90% plus from Perth or surrounds you’d actually get better fields and more horses if it was closer to Perth, it’s a sizeable cost to transport a team down there for a day of racing.

    Fossils is maybe harsh it’s more so the older generation that are living in the past the harness industry and the world has evolved and changed and if you don’t evolve with it you get left behind. I think the industry has been left behind and the older generation are doing all they can to keep it that way

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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,793 posts

    Gilgamesh said:

    In 2024 you can bet on just about any event you can think of.

    What are you most likely to want to bet on?? Something you have a firm opinion/view on.

    How are you likely to form that view?? Follow the sport/event closely.

    Why are you following that sport/event?? Because you enjoy it, you find it intriguing, ypu find it entertaining.

    Having followed the sport for around 30 years now and having it be at times my number 1 interest at best i would describe setting the time aside to watch the GP races, even on replay thst you can get done in about half an hour a chore, more accurately i'd say its more entertaining to watch the grass grow.

    So how is one expected to be betting on this product??

    Off the track you find better atmosphere at a cemetery.

    On the track you need only watch the first 15secs of a race then skip to the last maybe 40, how exciting.

    Rocket it does no good to your argument to refer to those that advicate for country racing as fossils when yourself and others of your demographic are more than happy to continue having metro racing on that completely outdated metro race track. The horses simply go too fast at that level now for it to be viable.

    I do get what your saying re holding say Kellerberrin rype meets at GP. The big problem i see is you will lose participants and once again shrink the pool of not only those that race but they few that are left that follow/bet/invest in the sport.




    That’s fine that you don’t enjoy pacing anymore people change, others do enjoy betting on it and from figures like I said previously they enjoy betting at GP more than any other track in WA and from memory it’s either the highest or second highest turnover track in Aus. Any time slot and any day.

    In regards to Kellerberrin the participants that race there would be 90% plus from Perth or surrounds you’d actually get better fields and more horses if it was closer to Perth, it’s a sizeable cost to transport a team down there for a day of racing.

    Fossils is maybe harsh it’s more so the older generation that are living in the past the harness industry and the world has evolved and changed and if you don’t evolve with it you get left behind. I think the industry has been left behind and the older generation are doing all they can to keep it that way


    Down to 11% of total hold would suggest those that no longer enjoy it (or are dead) are unfortunately forming a strong majority.

    You can say that those few remaining enjoy betting on GP, thats great - i'd suspect those poeple are very dedicated and succesful punters. Those remaining punters however aren't betting enough for the sport to be viable. And if they don't have losing/entertainment factor punters getting envolved eventually it will become impossible for them to be profitable as well.

    So if those that do continue to like it still want to race for more than just ribbons and punters want to continue to get a bet on they need to be doing everything they can to attract and hold new supporters.

    Having racing that actually feels like racing would be a solid start.

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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,793 posts
    I would also offer up that perhaps rather than just being opposed to change the fossils may have actually seen the errors made in the past and dont want to see history repeated.

    I guess all would agree to do nothing is to guarantee failure.

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  • JayJayJayJay    7,764 posts
    Yes, Gil, it is the product that is broken and it has been broken for decades. That was recognised when the much hyped  NBM was introduced in 2018. However, predictably and predicted at the time, the NBM didn't fix anything, it made it all far worse. None of its KPI's were achieved, not one. 

    Gloucester Park could be the highest or second highest turnover track in the world but that doesn't alter the fact that the turnover generated, at it or any other track in WA, is nowhere near enough. It is running at way less  than 40.5 cents in the dollar on Friday nights. The facts are unavoidable...it is completely unsustainable as a business. The solution is to more than halve the stakes or increase the number of people betting on the product. It is a fact that the code is receiving roughly double to what it is entitled to. Fact. Harness Turnover as a share of overall turnover is less than 11% and falling. Fact. So that is the dilemma facing all tracks. It matters not one jot exactly where GP or any other track sits on the turnover premiership table. Whatever it or any other track are turning over is far, far away from what it should be for the Industry to be profitable.

    GP management always trot out that same old tired turnover flannel, they have been doing it for years. But it doesn't wash or stand thorough analysis. Of course there are some big punters who love betting on the predictability of the product at GP....and indeed at all tracks....and we all know who they are, it is not a national secret but few others are betting on the product.

    So, without question, the model of GSL 1, RBD, $1.10 favourites, small fields, no challenge leader biased snoozefest races leading to accusations of boat racing, HWOE based conditional handicapping and appalling programming ( the model applies at all tracks across the state) is the major contributing factor to the continued demise of the industry. It is not only punters who have abandoned the industry. Take a look at the breeding industry, numbers of licensed personnel, any stat you want to call up....they are all in perilous decline. Young industry aspirants taking on day jobs in order to put food on the table (no names no pack drill).

    So, clearly, we can't keep doing what we are doing, something major has to change. The most disturbing part of the debate however, is the suggestion that shutting down or centralising country clubs tracks, a tactic that has been unquestionably a proven failure in the past, and one that will most definitely eliminate further participants from the industry, removing the few venues remaining where patrons actually engage on course, and have a hugely negative social impact on many communities, is seen as the solution to the massive crisis the Industry is facing.

    For daring to raise the folly of this fake solution to a problem that is far bigger than most want to realise, Cisco and Pancho repeatedly ride into town throwing ageist personal insults and offering little else.

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  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    868 posts
    I think you’re missing my point a little, seeing the figures I’ve seen etc it’s a simple fact that if the outter country meetings took place at GP Bunbury or Pinjarra instead it’s a much higher turnover meeting. Stakes and fields don’t change but the income does which while not a fix is a simple way to increase the figures we’re outputting at the moment.

    It’s the older generation that don’t want to see this and it’s simply because of history and memories of an older era that they have.
    Kellerberrin for example again can you name me any trainers that are local there but would be lost forever to the sport if those meetings moved to a premiere track? Because I can name many trainers that would start racing at those meetings because they’re closer to home and it’s more viable.
    More trainers racing means more horses and better quality fields which again will increase turnover

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  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    868 posts
    Just for an example say a Kellerberrin on a Sunday costs the industry 50k in stakes and returns 20k to the industry in revenue which it’s somewhere around that anyway, if you ran that meeting at Pinjarra it still only costs the industry 50k but the revenue returned might be 30k isn’t that instantly a step in the right direction?

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,975 posts

    I think you’re missing my point a little, seeing the figures I’ve seen etc it’s a simple fact that if the outter country meetings took place at GP Bunbury or Pinjarra instead it’s a much higher turnover meeting. Stakes and fields don’t change but the income does which while not a fix is a simple way to increase the figures we’re outputting at the moment.

    It’s the older generation that don’t want to see this and it’s simply because of history and memories of an older era that they have.
    Kellerberrin for example again can you name me any trainers that are local there but would be lost forever to the sport if those meetings moved to a premiere track? Because I can name many trainers that would start racing at those meetings because they’re closer to home and it’s more viable.
    More trainers racing means more horses and better quality fields which again will increase turnover

    I take your point re Kellerberrin - the distance the trainers have to  travel , and the big problem is , there are no horses or trainers their bar Tom Groves 

    Contrast that to Mildura - all the horses and most trainer drivers are their in that area  - the only ones ( and its their decision ) who have to get their and thus travel a fair way are the Douglass stable who regurlarly bring a decent team their - and also the top SA freelance driver Wayne Hill - he wants to earn some money so he makes the big trip from SA and he nearly allways gets a full book of drives 

    Its exactly the same with Bathurst who basically hold a meeting every Wed night - al the horses trainers/drivers are in that area - the only ones who have to make the 3hr trip are Robbie Morris - Chris Geary and a couple of others who now and again make the trip to get their as freelance drivers 

    The big problem in WA re the small outer country tracks is there are basically no horses and trainers based their - so thus alot of horses/trainers and drivers have to make that long trip for those meetings to go ahead- thats the big problem
  • loose_gooseloose_goose    2,071 posts
    AbbysAce said:

    7 leaders won and 3 won from outside the leader.


    I dont think there was any mid race moves for the whole meeting.

    Where have the tactics gone? Or is it all worked out before they go out there?

    Can we bring back the pony races so I can watch a race where something exciting might happen?
    GP racing is just a bore fest, more happens at the country tracks that make the racing a bit better viewing wise.

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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,793 posts

    Just for an example say a Kellerberrin on a Sunday costs the industry 50k in stakes and returns 20k to the industry in revenue which it’s somewhere around that anyway, if you ran that meeting at Pinjarra it still only costs the industry 50k but the revenue returned might be 30k isn’t that instantly a step in the right direction?




    I don't disagree with what you are saying but i would argue that if you did once again reduce the number of tracks you would continue to deminish the reach of the product.

    I would argue that these outer tracks are were the majority get their start and im not just talking drivers/trainers i'd be willing to suggest you are most likely to garner fresh punters from these regions.

    So you might get a sugar hit for a short period after that you will have lost another entire set of eyeballs, participants and punters dollars as well as breeding ground for fresh blood. GP would still be holding more than the next Country track in line to be closed but once again thst GP hold would be smaller and shrinking.

    Kellerberrin-interesting place for a track. I'm not a fan of the place granted having only stopped by on my way through , seems a small town to have a track, I get its "central" but if your already travelling I would have gone to Merredin.

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  • MorganJamesMorganJames    176 posts
    Only way for industry to survive going forward in this current era and enviroment is to increase stake money which is a pretty basic outlook.
    This can be achieved 2 fold 
    Either increase income or decrease costs so more money can be distributed into stake money by RWWA.
    1.Streamline the running costs of RWWA to run the business

    2.RWWA board to negotiate with the Govt to receive  a bigger slice of the income that the POC tax provides into the governments coffers
  • JayJayJayJay    7,764 posts
    edited March 18
    From the Submission Tabled in Parliament 2023:
    • Trainers
      within 1 hour of CWHRC – 10 licensed trainers with approximately 35 horses in total plus associated licensed stablehands.
    • 6
      local (Kellerberrin) trainers with approximately 20 horses constantly
      utilising the track.
    • Employees
      consist of 2 part time administration staff, Clerk or Course/catcher, track preparation staff, veterinary swabbing assistant, judges, timekeepers, tote operators, kitchen/bar staff.
    • Strong
      volunteer hub of 12-15 people.
    • Stable
      group of owners and breeders in the region.
    • Sponsorship
      from approximately 15 local and surrounding businesses.
    I can't and won't speak on behalf of the Groves, Goulden, Postans, Dale etc families but I can only apply Bayesian Inference Theory incorporating past actual events,  that suggests in all probability, all of the above would rapidly disappear from the Industry after a couple of trips to Pinjarra and a couple of "beat up jobs" from the Bond, Hall, Young, DeCampo, Howlett etc stables. With respect, the quality of horse would be unable to compete and would be lost to the horse population.

    Similar application of the same theory would suggest that other traditional stables and their owners that do regularly travel to Kellerberrin to compete with like v like horses would also rapidly exit stage right if the meetings were transferred to Pinjarra.

    I agree to a certain extent about your increase in turnover argument, and a theoretical $10k increase in return is better than nothing, if it were to occur. We don't know,  but what we do know is that Sunday afternoon is the worst betting slot in WA, worse even than Saturday Night and whether running at Pinjarra would turn that around is very problematical.

    Gil, the Kellerberrin facility is first rate, part of a Royalty for Regions inspired Greater Sportsground Concept that keeps rural townships viable. It encompasses football, harness, golf, basketball, netball, swimming, pony club ...you name it...along with dining, bar and TAB facilities. The success of these centres in country towns is dependent on having as many people and sports engaged as is possible. Losing any organisation, from the Football Club to teh Harness Racing Club would be a dagger through the heart.

    Location wise, Central Wheatbelts formation  "absorbed" Merredin, Cunderdin, Trayning and Wyalkatchem after the last rationalisation which resulted in a another exodus of many families, breeders and individual licensees from the Industry.

    But at the risk of a repetitive slow death, it is the PRODUCT that is broken, it is rooted, it is boring, it is stuffed.... the model of racing, handicapping and programming has been rejected overwhelmingly by the people on whom our industry needs desperately to engage....the punters. And they are saying bugger off, we are not betting on your lousy product, we are not buying it, no matter where you present it.


  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,793 posts
    To put my comments another way,

    to reduce country racing would be akin to the AFL canning support for little league (my 5yr old daughter currently going to have a crack at it because it is free).

    Yep they would have a significant reduction in cost immediately so improved profit for a short period.

    Not long after that they will have lost a generation of both talent for particiaption and crowd/interest for revenue.

    You need to focus on growing the footprint to improve participation and interest not cut off your nose to spite your face.

    But as JJ has said you can do whatever you want but if what you are offering is boring as bat shit you wont find any makshift leavers to maintain the interest for a viable industry.
  • MoonrakerMoonraker    99 posts
    Question - is QLD harness considered sustainable in terms betting income and stakes payouts?

    Unfortunately i feel the war has already been lost - too much of the footprint has already been eroded for WA to have a viable decentralised/country racing footprint. 

    Its too late to arrest the decline now and its only a matter of time before we are a 2 track town (maybe 3) like Qld. Hence my question.... 

    Rocket_Reign, Chopchop43 likes this post.

  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    868 posts
    Moonraker said:

    Question - is QLD harness considered sustainable in terms betting income and stakes payouts?


    Unfortunately i feel the war has already been lost - too much of the footprint has already been eroded for WA to have a viable decentralised/country racing footprint. 

    Its too late to arrest the decline now and its only a matter of time before we are a 2 track town (maybe 3) like Qld. Hence my question.... 



    Victoria is also heading down the same pathway from all reports
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,975 posts
    Jay Jay said 2 posts back the product re WA Trotting is broken - how do you attract new punters 

    Well the bottom line is 95% of punters are idiots 

    Mid 90s i had 1 year in Melb and i lived in Essendon - TABs use to shut early , so i worked out the local scene pretty quickly , after work on a Frid night i would go up to the Essendon Football ground - you had to sign the visitors book and be dressed smartly to get in ,. But upstairs their gambling area was beautifully presented - big screen with all that nights pacing/chasing and TAB facility at your finger tips . There was even a log fire , so you could sit on the couch and watch the old Frid night movie if you wanted to 

    There were about 3 betting on Trots who would come each week - so you would yak to them - who can win this etc etc , one of them was related to that Trots trainer Tony Buckley he told me he got kicked by a pacer and it killed him 

    So you have 3 betting on the Trots , have a guess what the other 200 were doing , aged from 30-80 playing those stupid poker machines all night

    As Chariots posted a couple of times , the real deathnell for GP was when the Casino opened
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,793 posts
    Moonraker said:

    Question - is QLD harness considered sustainable in terms betting income and stakes payouts?


    Unfortunately i feel the war has already been lost - too much of the footprint has already been eroded for WA to have a viable decentralised/country racing footprint. 

    Its too late to arrest the decline now and its only a matter of time before we are a 2 track town (maybe 3) like Qld. Hence my question.... 



    Qld is a completely different circumstance as they have massive tax concessions compared to other states.
  • getthechangegetthechange    321 posts
    Gil your comment "The big problem i see is you will lose participants and once again shrink the pool of not only those that race but they few that are left that follow/bet/invest in the sport."  is exactly what would  happen if Kellerberrin et were moved to GP - short term there would be an increase in turnover but the horse numbers and trainer numbers would drop pretty quickly and the races will soon be dominated by leading stables
    I dont agree with a lot of my fellow fossil Jay Jays thoughts but we should be supporting not abandoning  the trainers mentioned in Jay Jays latest post 
    A tree is only as strong as its roots

    149 and 130 noms for the kast two GP tuesday meetings and 230 noms for Narrogin tommorow night in te same stake races so highly unlikely that Community stake races at GP would attract country horses and trainers

    Betonme, LightningJake likes this post.

  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,793 posts
    Moonraker said:

    Question - is QLD harness considered sustainable in terms betting income and stakes payouts?


    Unfortunately i feel the war has already been lost - too much of the footprint has already been eroded for WA to have a viable decentralised/country racing footprint. 

    Its too late to arrest the decline now and its only a matter of time before we are a 2 track town (maybe 3) like Qld. Hence my question.... 



    Hard to find the latest figures but qld racing are recieving 80% of tax rev collected vs the latest fugures in can see for WA as 30% so its apples and oranges to say their 3 track system is working.
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