WACHRA Survey ResultsHarness & Greyhounds

Arapaho

Rocket, you keep harping on  about costs to send a team to a a outer country track not being viable.

People will go anywhere, if they can get a quid ,no matter what field they are employed or involved in.

We all need options and the more options we have, the more chance we have of making it.

Not everyone can succeed in the big smoke especially the ones that are starting off.

Thats why places like Albany and Kellerberrin (even with less stakes) get reasonable fields because trainers go there to dodge the big stables to try and get a quid.

If you move those meetings closer to the Metropolitan area those lesser lights both horses and trainers will be lost to the industry.

As, for the Industry needing a change; well that change started, when our then CEO stated at the Governments Joint Standing committee meeting held in 2010 that RWWA  in the future wanted a parallel of racing of 3 tracks GP ,Pinjarra, and Bunbury..

They( RWWA )have continued on that path ever since with the closure of a number of outer country tracks.

What the Fossils(Learned ones)are trying to stop,is that particular change which has clearly not worked with a mass exodus of Trainers,Drivers,Owners,Breeders,Punters Spectators etc.

We can see that we are on the road to Nowhere,and we need to take another path, if we are to become viable again.

Getting back to costs of travelling 

I would think that at a guess that Pinjarra would be the closest track to your stables or at least the easiest to access.

I find it strange that you, who wants to close theses outer country tracks down, would bypass PInjarra and head to Albany with a team for the same stake money.

I see that venture was quite profitable for you with 16 out of the 24 wins you have for the season in WA, won at that venue with earning over $102,000.

I wonder if you had went to Pinjarra instead of Albany would you have achieved the same result.

By the way that CEO and his successor both main instigators of the situation that we find ourselves in, have both since flown the coup.

Rocket_Reign

Arapaho said:

Rocket, you keep harping on  about costs to send a team to a a outer country track not being viable.

People will go anywhere, if they can get a quid ,no matter what field they are employed or involved in.

We all need options and the more options we have, the more chance we have of making it.

Not everyone can succeed in the big smoke especially the ones that are starting off.

Thats why places like Albany and Kellerberrin (even with less stakes) get reasonable fields because trainers go there to dodge the big stables to try and get a quid.

If you move those meetings closer to the Metropolitan area those lesser lights both horses and trainers will be lost to the industry.

As, for the Industry needing a change; well that change started, when our then CEO stated at the Governments Joint Standing committee meeting held in 2010 that RWWA  in the future wanted a parallel of racing of 3 tracks GP ,Pinjarra, and Bunbury..

They( RWWA )have continued on that path ever since with the closure of a number of outer country tracks.

What the Fossils(Learned ones)are trying to stop,is that particular change which has clearly not worked with a mass exodus of Trainers,Drivers,Owners,Breeders,Punters Spectators etc.

We can see that we are on the road to Nowhere,and we need to take another path, if we are to become viable again.

Getting back to costs of travelling 

I would think that at a guess that Pinjarra would be the closest track to your stables or at least the easiest to access.

I find it strange that you, who wants to close theses outer country tracks down, would bypass PInjarra and head to Albany with a team for the same stake money.

I see that venture was quite profitable for you with 16 out of the 24 wins you have for the season in WA, won at that venue with earning over $102,000.

I wonder if you had went to Pinjarra instead of Albany would you have achieved the same result.

By the way that CEO and his successor both main instigators of the situation that we find ourselves in, have both since flown the coup.

Yeah if it was at a closer track you’d get more people than just me going which would make for better racing, rather than me having multiple $1.20 shots for the season

getthechange

you want community meetings and country horses to go to GP 

but 

would you go to Albany if they were community meetings or would you race at Pin and GPM

Arapaho

Doesnt answer the question, why didnt you go to Pinjarra instead of Albany,theres a meeting there every Monday surely it would be a cheaper option in costs and for the same stakes..

Gilgamesh

Rocket_Reign said:

Arapaho said:

Rocket, you keep harping on  about costs to send a team to a a outer country track not being viable.

People will go anywhere, if they can get a quid ,no matter what field they are employed or involved in.

We all need options and the more options we have, the more chance we have of making it.

Not everyone can succeed in the big smoke especially the ones that are starting off.

Thats why places like Albany and Kellerberrin (even with less stakes) get reasonable fields because trainers go there to dodge the big stables to try and get a quid.

If you move those meetings closer to the Metropolitan area those lesser lights both horses and trainers will be lost to the industry.

As, for the Industry needing a change; well that change started, when our then CEO stated at the Governments Joint Standing committee meeting held in 2010 that RWWA  in the future wanted a parallel of racing of 3 tracks GP ,Pinjarra, and Bunbury..

They( RWWA )have continued on that path ever since with the closure of a number of outer country tracks.

What the Fossils(Learned ones)are trying to stop,is that particular change which has clearly not worked with a mass exodus of Trainers,Drivers,Owners,Breeders,Punters Spectators etc.

We can see that we are on the road to Nowhere,and we need to take another path, if we are to become viable again.

Getting back to costs of travelling 

I would think that at a guess that Pinjarra would be the closest track to your stables or at least the easiest to access.

I find it strange that you, who wants to close theses outer country tracks down, would bypass PInjarra and head to Albany with a team for the same stake money.

I see that venture was quite profitable for you with 16 out of the 24 wins you have for the season in WA, won at that venue with earning over $102,000.

I wonder if you had went to Pinjarra instead of Albany would you have achieved the same result.

By the way that CEO and his successor both main instigators of the situation that we find ourselves in, have both since flown the coup.

Yeah if it was at a closer track you’d get more people than just me going which would make for better racing, rather than me having multiple $1.20 shots for the season

Oh.yeah there's no $1.20 and shorter pops at gloucester park....

Rocket_Reign

getthechange said:

you want community meetings and country horses to go to GP 

but 

would you go to Albany if they were community meetings or would you race at Pin and GPM

I didn’t say GP, I said GP Bunbury and Pinjarra any of the proper and accessible tracks.

Arapaho I was racing at Pinjarra as well as Albany. I race where the programming suits at the time

JayJay

So as far as shifting Kellerberrin meetings to GP, you are now including Pinjarra and Bunbury as possible venues for their meeting? Making more and more sense by the second.

Gilgamesh

Rocket_Reign said:

getthechange said:

you want community meetings and country horses to go to GP 

but 

would you go to Albany if they were community meetings or would you race at Pin and GPM

I didn’t say GP, I said GP Bunbury and Pinjarra any of the proper and accessible tracks.

Arapaho I was racing at Pinjarra as well as Albany. I race where the programming suits at the time

They would just be someone elses horses like todays Pinj meeting.

Rocket_Reign

JayJay said:

So as far as shifting Kellerberrin meetings to GP, you are now including Pinjarra and Bunbury as possible venues for their meeting? Making more and more sense by the second.

Anywhere yes, cater for 9/10 of trainers and the professionals not sure why a professional industry caters so highly for people that make their living off a 9/5 job and train a few horses on the side

Gilgamesh

Rocket_Reign said:

JayJay said:

So as far as shifting Kellerberrin meetings to GP, you are now including Pinjarra and Bunbury as possible venues for their meeting? Making more and more sense by the second.

Anywhere yes, cater for 9/10 of trainers and the professionals not sure why a professional industry caters so highly for people that make their living off a 9/5 job and train a few horses on the side

Because without them you wouldnt have an industry.

Rocket_Reign

Gilgamesh said:

Rocket_Reign said:

JayJay said:

So as far as shifting Kellerberrin meetings to GP, you are now including Pinjarra and Bunbury as possible venues for their meeting? Making more and more sense by the second.

Anywhere yes, cater for 9/10 of trainers and the professionals not sure why a professional industry caters so highly for people that make their living off a 9/5 job and train a few horses on the side

Because without them you wouldnt have an industry.

Wouldn’t we

JayJay

Rocket_Reign said:

Anywhere yes, cater for 9/10 of trainers and the professionals not sure why a professional industry caters so highly for people that make their living off a 9/5 job and train a few horses on the side

My goodness........well Self Interest just burst to the front.

Rocket_Reign

JayJay said:

Rocket_Reign said:

Anywhere yes, cater for 9/10 of trainers and the professionals not sure why a professional industry caters so highly for people that make their living off a 9/5 job and train a few horses on the side

My goodness........well Self Interest just burst to the front.

Self interest? I would have made much less money during the Albany season if it was run at say a Pinjarra or Bunbury. Once again you’ve thrown a dart and missed the whole board

JayJay

If Albany had been run at Pinjarra (in some crazy parallel universe), then there is a whole lot of people who would have made no money, probably would not have taken part and almost certainly would exit the Industry.

I have an idea....lets shut down all the WAFL grounds and make them all play at Optus....or even better, all country football leagues south of Perth play all their games at Bunbury, it will save money on ground maintenance, who needs grassroots footy anyway?

Nah, I think the Self Interest dart landed very accurately, right in the middle of the board. We can't possibly tolerate decisions being made in the best interests of the Industry.

Rocket_Reign

JayJay said:

If Albany had been run at Pinjarra (in some crazy parallel universe), then there is a whole lot of people who would have made no money, probably would not have taken part and almost certainly would exit the Industry.

I have an idea....lets shut down all the WAFL grounds and make them all play at Optus....or even better, all country football leagues south of Perth play all their games at Bunbury, it will save money on ground maintenance, who needs grassroots footy anyway?

Nah, I think the Self Interest dart landed very accurately, right in the middle of the board. We can't possibly tolerate decisions being made in the best interests of the Industry.

Well they don’t play wafl in Kellerberrin and Wagin and however far else out of the city you want to travel!

Gilgamesh

How would you make up the fields?

Hot tip, the people that are doing this as an interest arent going to be paying the $2k+ a month to have someone train their horse, they would just disappear. 

You wouldnt have the grades. 

 Might be able to cobble together 2 meets a week of 6 or 7 races, the races would be that lop sided due to their not being enough horses in each class you might turnover a couple of hundred a race, exciting times.

Rocket_Reign

Gilgamesh said:

How would you make up the fields?

Hot tip, the people that are doing this as an interest arent going to be paying the $2k+ a month to have someone train their horse, they would just disappear. 

You wouldnt have the grades. 

 Might be able to cobble together 2 meets a week of 6 or 7 races, the races would be that lop sided due to their not being enough horses in each class you might turnover a couple of hundred a race, exciting times.

The mass exodus you’re claiming will happen is a bit far fetched in my opinion, if Kellerberrin was to cease like I said before who’s even down there training. JayJay was nice enough to put up stats that included 10 trainers or whatever but the cheeky bugger made sure that included everyone in Northam to boost up the numbers. Having meetings closer boosts field numbers and sizes I think

Gilgamesh

Rocket_Reign said:

Gilgamesh said:

How would you make up the fields?

Hot tip, the people that are doing this as an interest arent going to be paying the $2k+ a month to have someone train their horse, they would just disappear. 

You wouldnt have the grades. 

 Might be able to cobble together 2 meets a week of 6 or 7 races, the races would be that lop sided due to their not being enough horses in each class you might turnover a couple of hundred a race, exciting times.

The mass exodus you’re claiming will happen is a bit far fetched in my opinion, if Kellerberrin was to cease like I said before who’s even down there training. JayJay was nice enough to put up stats that included 10 trainers or whatever but the cheeky bugger made sure that included everyone in Northam to boost up the numbers. Having meetings closer boosts field numbers and sizes I think

Your comment wasnt just re closing Kella it was "not sure why a professional industry caters so highly for people that make their living off a 9/5 job and train a few horses on the side".

They cater for those people because as i have said repetedly without losers their can't be winners be that owners trainers drivers or punters.

They at least need an opportunity to think they might get a win to keep up an interest.

Gilgamesh

You can't just have the simplistic view of "bottom line" in all decisions.

If that was the case we wouldnt have any of these feature races-running the pacing cup is going to set the industry back far further than running a full season at Central Wheatbelt.

But you have to have aspirational level races.

Similarly you have to have low grade races that might not attract the punting dollar but give the horses that aren't going to cut it somewhere to go (particularly in this day and age of horse welfare) and you need people that are going to be more excited about the fact they finally won a race somewhere thst they aren't rhat concerned about how far behind they actually are for keeping the horse in work.

Rocket_Reign

You can have low level races on higher quality tracks

Gilgamesh

Rocket_Reign said:

You can have low level races on higher quality tracks

Yes but they will get beaten up in by the big boys.

You will also lose the auidence-some of those Albany meets for example looked to have really solid crowds.

Moonraker

The closure of Geraldton and then Kalgoorlie mean that 'circuit' trainers such as Plozza and inwood were effectively lost.

Kalgoorlie provided a viable option Kelleberrin region trainers and vice versa - this was lost.

Like Kal, its only a matter of time before enough Albany trainers age out for it to be deemed too dependent on travelling trainers to be considered viable (if not already) and will be closed.

Thereby putting pressure on the next ring of outer tracks - Wagin et al.

IMO we will end up as a boutique 3 track industry - it is inevitable, the decline has spiraled so far it will be impossible to arrest it.

Do we wait for death by 1000 cuts till we get there or do we be proactive and get their faster?

Is the punter going to care that 80% of the fields are made up by Hall, Bond, De Campo, Prentice, Young, Howlett and their will be a pool of 20 drivers. Or would they prefer it?

Rocket_Reign

Gilgamesh said:

Rocket_Reign said:

You can have low level races on higher quality tracks

Yes but they will get beaten up in by the big boys.

You will also lose the auidence-some of those Albany meets for example looked to have really solid crowds.

God forbid it resemble something like a race a competitive race

Gilgamesh

Moonraker/Rocket you are both missing the point.

You cant have all levels of races made up of Hall, Bond, Rocket etc.

Moddest estimate lets say 75% of horses end their days as losing comodities when coats from day of birth to end of racing career are total-its probably considerably higher.

Use that moddest number again 75% of that 75% are being trained by the hobby owner/trainer.

Lets say 90% of those people aren't going to have horses anymore if its full time professional, 10% might be happy to pay up for someone to train them.

So you as a full time trainer are going to go to your owners and say, we are going to grow our stable by 50% fellas but 75% of these are going to be absolute money munchers, thanks for coming.

Combine that with completely dropping the guts out of the collective that rock around with their couple of horses that are also probably the losing punters funding the winners.

You would be racing for ribbons before you could blink.

Gilgamesh

Rocket_Reign said:

Gilgamesh said:

Rocket_Reign said:

You can have low level races on higher quality tracks

Yes but they will get beaten up in by the big boys.

You will also lose the auidence-some of those Albany meets for example looked to have really solid crowds.

God forbid it resemble something like a race a competitive race

The racing from Albany was infinitely more competitve than what we get dished up at "headquarters" meet after meet.

Even when there were odds on pops they werent just given it on a platter.

Rocket_Reign

Gilgamesh said:

Moonraker/Rocket you are both missing the point.

You cant have all levels of races made up of Hall, Bond, Rocket etc.

Moddest estimate lets say 75% of horses end their days as losing comodities when coats from day of birth to end of racing career are total-its probably considerably higher.

Use that moddest number again 75% of that 75% are being trained by the hobby owner/trainer.

Lets say 90% of those people aren't going to have horses anymore if its full time professional, 10% might be happy to pay up for someone to train them.

So you as a full time trainer are going to go to your owners and say, we are going to grow our stable by 50% fellas but 75% of these are going to be absolute money munchers, thanks for coming.

Combine that with completely dropping the guts out of the collective that rock around with their couple of horses that are also probably the losing punters funding the winners.

You would be racing for ribbons before you could blink.

Its a literal stat that 90% of trainers are metro/peel/south so I don’t know how you’re losing 90% of hobby trainers moving races to where they all train from

Gilgamesh

Is the punter going to care that 80% of the fields are made up by Hall, Bond, De Campo, Prentice, Young, Howlett and their will be a pool of 20 drivers. Or would they prefer it?

That is what i was responding to.

Those names can barely make full fields on a friday night racing for massively inflated prizemoney vs the income it generates.

How will they go racing for show money on a Sunday afternoon if they were to start facing more realistic distribution returns?

Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh said:

Is the punter going to care that 80% of the fields are made up by Hall, Bond, De Campo, Prentice, Young, Howlett and their will be a pool of 20 drivers. Or would they prefer it?

Thisis what i was responding to along with your expressed desire to make things all about the professional.

Those names can't make full fields on a Friday night racing for massively inflated prizemoney vs the income it generates.

How will they go racing for show money on a Sunday afternoon if they were to start facing more realistic distribution returns?

Muldoon

Rocket_Reign said:

JayJay said:

If Albany had been run at Pinjarra (in some crazy parallel universe), then there is a whole lot of people who would have made no money, probably would not have taken part and almost certainly would exit the Industry.

I have an idea....lets shut down all the WAFL grounds and make them all play at Optus....or even better, all country football leagues south of Perth play all their games at Bunbury, it will save money on ground maintenance, who needs grassroots footy anyway?

Nah, I think the Self Interest dart landed very accurately, right in the middle of the board. We can't possibly tolerate decisions being made in the best interests of the Industry.

Well they don’t play wafl in Kellerberrin and Wagin and however far else out of the city you want to travel!

Did you miss this bit ? "or even better, all country football leagues south of Perth play all their games at Bunbury "  They might not have WAFL teams but players in WACFL frrom Kellerberin/Tammin & Wagin have surely gone on & played WAFL some of them AFL, heard of the Matera's from Wagin ?

Moonraker

Rocket_Reign said:

Gilgamesh said:

Moonraker/Rocket you are both missing the point.

You cant have all levels of races made up of Hall, Bond, Rocket etc.

Moddest estimate lets say 75% of horses end their days as losing comodities when coats from day of birth to end of racing career are total-its probably considerably higher.

Use that moddest number again 75% of that 75% are being trained by the hobby owner/trainer.

Lets say 90% of those people aren't going to have horses anymore if its full time professional, 10% might be happy to pay up for someone to train them.

So you as a full time trainer are going to go to your owners and say, we are going to grow our stable by 50% fellas but 75% of these are going to be absolute money munchers, thanks for coming.

Combine that with completely dropping the guts out of the collective that rock around with their couple of horses that are also probably the losing punters funding the winners.

You would be racing for ribbons before you could blink.

Its a literal stat that 90% of trainers are metro/peel/south so I don’t know how you’re losing 90% of hobby trainers moving races to where they all train from

I think a high proportion of hobby trainers would be lost. At the moment the hobby trainer can go to Keller, Wagin, bridge etc and avoid most of the big boys and get an earn.

With more of these lower class races in their backyard, the big boys and their owners would be more included to acquire the cattle to clean these races up. Thus driving the hobby trainer out.