Cam Brown interview.Harness & Greyhounds

Frog

I have a few questions. As I could of said which are the best days that are bet on. (didn't need a year?)

1/ Cost of running meetings per race as a percentage of turnover. (Aldi v/s Coles and Woolworths)

2/ Were and when statement ? (does this mean closing many tracks like Victoria is planning)

3/ Betting agents not taking or reducing bets. (resulting in less turnover, some punters down 20/30%)

Make Tabtouch grow some balls and take on punters like the olden days)

4/ Now Victoria harness is on national handicapping systems and there on life support so why would 

we even think of changing before we make changes to ours. (we can do better)

5/ Talking to people over east we look like a very ungoverned sports with weak stewarding. (were punter 

wont punt as lawless)

Frog

Positive Matt did a great job of the W barrier draws.

If only Tabtouch get markets up early.

Jasper

Re the document - why is Peel (Pinjarra) categorised with Perth, it is closer to Bunbury (southwest). The Wheatbelt category is also pretty broad.
Pretty obvious they are going to close a few tracks based on this information. Also Brown spoke about less races/meetings, will that reduce the total stake money etc,? So it’s not only tracks but number of races/meetings that will contract. What about admin costs?
What are racing WA doing to grow the sport? Owners night once a year is the best I can come up with. Hopefully I am wrong. (Will the GP redevelopment have an impact I wonder)

JayJay

Peel should be separate from both Perth and Bunbury.

The Peel region includes the Serpentine/Byford area all the way down to Waroona.

There would be very few horses trained or domiciled in "Perth" as such. I know a few tow in to GP for fastwork but the days of stables in East Perth, Victoria Park, Cannington or Wembley are gone. There are almost no horses trained in "Perth" as such.

The argument on travel time complaints is an interesting on....very much a one way argument is presented in terms of travel time. Yes, it is 2 hours to Williams or Wagin or an hour and a half to Bunbury....but try the freeway on a Friday night getting into GP. Trainers allow 70 - 90 minutes coming from Serpentine, two and a half hours from Bunbury etc.  Access to GP will become more and more of an issue, try it out when it clashes with a concert or an AFL game at the stadium.

If the travel argument is to be valid, it must work both ways.

savethegame

They can't see the forest because of the trees .

This chip & draw at G.P .the tactics we get 24 million for changes & rearranges from RWWA.
Then G.P gets 10 million back from sale over five years
Play on 14 million. Evaporates no industry participants can lay a glove on , Surely I got that wrong the joints worth 70-80 million.

Gilgamesh

I still find it staggering they compare a meeting turning over $300K giving out stakes around $200K fAvourable to a meeting turning over $150K that gives out stakes around the $50k range.

What sound business can think like that.

TimmyBee

Gilgamesh said:

I still find it staggering they compare a meeting turning over $300K giving out stakes around $200K fAvourable to a meeting turning over $150K that gives out stakes around the $50k range.

What sound business can think like that.

I thought I heard him say that it was $360k ish per race not per meeting?

Gilgamesh

TimmyBee said:

Gilgamesh said:

I still find it staggering they compare a meeting turning over $300K giving out stakes around $200K fAvourable to a meeting turning over $150K that gives out stakes around the $50k range.

What sound business can think like that.

I thought I heard him say that it was $360k ish per race not per meeting?

Sorry, that is what i meant to write!

Gilgamesh

Also an odd choice of words when discussing the second friday night meeting as competing against the main meeting - I would suggest it is more complimentary than competition.

I will happily sit at home friday night and bet on both meetings but if the lesser meet was moved to the Sat I might glance over it but i'm not as likely to actively play race to race.

TimmyBee

Gilgamesh said:

TimmyBee said:

Gilgamesh said:

I still find it staggering they compare a meeting turning over $300K giving out stakes around $200K fAvourable to a meeting turning over $150K that gives out stakes around the $50k range.

What sound business can think like that.

I thought I heard him say that it was $360k ish per race not per meeting?

Sorry, that is what i meant to write!

Pardon my ignorance because I don’t actually get how it works but of that 350k turned over on each race, how much of that actually comes back to the industry?

Frog

About 2.5% so $350,000. = $8,750. (per race)

Vincent_vega

.

Markovina

How do you actually increase turnover ?  

Well in my opinion you can forget  all  about handicapping , over East they have the NR system and they are broke , and over here a different system and they are also on their knees 

I think one rule ( and im comfortable with the current rule because im a rusted on trots punter ) that they must change ASAP  to attract or keep new punters to harness racing , and that is if a horse in a mobile start is going to be left behind 

And you will never get a better example than Race 1 at Newcastle Trots last Frid night , i watched that race live , Robbie Morris on the $1.50 fave , from gate 2 , well here is the stewards explanation  " Contacted  sulky , broke in score up ,out of position at start , took no competitive part, tailed off "

If you were a gallops or greyhound punter and you threw $100 on that fave , you would say , the stinking blooody trots , i never even got a run for my money . That is the critical point , even a casino punter , heads or tails , red or black , your a chance to win . However with Trotting ( and it is unique to the trots ) you can do your money cold, and with all the different betting options available today , i dont think that is good enough 

Many years ago at Harold Park ( all  the states had different rules ) with a 6/4 combo , if you drew the front line and way out of position it was a false start , you then went to outside of front which is a disadvantage , but you were still a chance , if you were on the back row , you went to the outside of that row . If you bombed the start the 2nd time it was a late scratching , so punters had to get a run for their money 

You cant have  punters having $1000 on something at $1.50 and its 100 metres behind them at the start , you are not going to get new punters 

Frog

So country meeting at $150,000. = $3,750. (per race)

Which is more profitable than a metro meeting.

So GP 10 race metro meeting would loss $122,500.

Northam Saturday meeting 7 races would loss $40,250.

Narrogin Friday meeting 6 races would loss $14,700. (this Friday)

You would be looking at a SA prize money model (same as Victoria

are going down) As buying NZers for $100k $200k $300k or god help 

$400k there is no chance of getting a dream return with how far prize

money could drop. (the business people with that money would know it)

Only state government or RWWA with extra funding could help.

Frog

N/R system would help our lesser meetings 

keeping thoughts horses running around and 

not being sold to NSW. Which we loss less

money , maybe this was the trend when they

started it. So the metro horses are disadvantaged

so will effect so of our big stables running againast

better horses every week and outclassed.

Frog

Cam did say,

Gallops Harness and Greyhounds

are all down 15% 20% 

Harness is not the only one to sew

down the belt.

Frog

There seems to be no bigger picture stuff here.

So trainers and drivers and owners are in for

A BIG SHOCK. Money wise.

Frog

Those who own land or on the right side.

JayJay

Imagine the massive Industry Losses at Gloucester Park when they run these huge stake nights, the $1.25 million Slot Race, even this weeks  $630k plus Westbred night, Pacing Cup etc, along with all  the bogus  claims of revitalising or reinvigorating the Industry etc.

Now clearly, you need marquee events, no argument whatsoever but the throwing away of money (making 30k races 50k and 50k races 100k, attracting exactly the same field and generating exactly the same turnover) is ludicrous, rewarding only the already very successful, already high earning horses and owners, leaving just a few crumbs for the greater unwashed. The power brokers have done their job well. We'll close down Kellerberrin and Wagin, that will fix the problem. Yeah, right, sure it will.

Harness needs to "sew down the belt" because its share of overall turnover has sunk to such disastrous levels that it is already heavily subsidised by the other two codes. It costs 59 million to run the Harness code per annum, it generates about 12.4 million in wagering revenue and is subsidised by RWWA (the other codes) to the tune of 46 million.  Claims the GP is turnover central and all that old flannel mean nothing when your principal metro track is responsible for bleeding most of the Industry's enormous losses.

On a race by race basis, Victoria has the highest turnover per race at $273k. WA ranks 4th at $193k per race.

And just when you think it can't get any crazier, RWWA has allocated $24.7 million (bound to balloon out)  of desperately needed Industry funding to "redevelop" GP so that they can sell the farm for supposedly a good return  and build a new lounge for the 300 members and an unbelievably ambitious facility for 4,500 patrons (about 100 per meeting on the lawn) on the other side of the track whilst retaining an outdated 800m track for the foreseeable future at a venue that is becoming increasingly inaccessible year by year?

Praise the Lord and pass me the diazepam, you simply can't make it up.

warrenrobinson

The hundreds of post JayJay has put up especially over the last couple of years re the HWOE model and GP has come to fruition so apologize all you doubters.GP and the GP Owners Association may need to head to church on Sunday and beg forgiveness.

JayJay

Forget about all that, at what point does The Minister wake up and say "good Heavens, the numbers presented by Cam Brown  are horrific, no KPI's from the New Business and Handicap Model have been met in 6 years, the product is broken, it is not selling, punters have rejected it, it costs 59 million to run and returns 14.4 million from turnover revenue, it is trading insolvently and is heavily subsidised and RWWA has committed 25 million to a venue that no one goes to.....just how big does the train wreck need to be before he intervenes? If it were a stock exchange listed business, how long before reform would be demanded, how long before the Harness Racing Consultative Group would be given the "clear your desk instruction", how long before a round table was called, all with an election approaching?

Gilgamesh

Re the shrinking turnover on all codes what exactly did they think was going to happen when they massively ramped up the taxes??

If something that use to cost me $1 now cost $1.15 I cant buy as much of it - not rocket science!!!!

AbbysAce

And closing tracks wont solve a thing.

JayJay

It has NEVER worked in the past, those that think revitalising the industry can be achieved by further shrinking the footprint are delusional and ignore history.

It is the product that is broken, it is the product that punters won't bet on, it is the snorefest follow the leader unhandicapped $1.10 favourites that people reject and will not attend, it is the RBD best horse in the field being drawn to win,  it is the impression, false or otherwise, of an industry lacking integrity with rumours of team driving that people reject, it is the resounding bias favouring the promotion of one code in particular at the expense of the other two, it is the relentless drive to remove the hobbyist that is destroying the industry.....all of that ....and bugger all to do with where we race.

Markovina

AbbysAce said:

And closing tracks wont solve a thing.

Thats fair enough , but tell us how you or anyone for that matter are going to substantially increase turnover 

Iwould suggest that the WA Trots financially have been propped up  for at least the last 20 years by the gallops and greyhounds not getting their proper and correct allocation of funds based on their turnover 

The stark reality is in my opinion , if a qualified Receiver/Manager was appointed by every state trotting board , theyd all recomend the same thing to balance the books , cut stake money in half and substantially reduce the number of meetings that they hold 

Without selling property/fixed assets or mortgaging them completely then their yearly revenues cant cover the costs 

Outside of knowing their property assets , most states would be insolvent 

Frog

Well 24 hours to the W night.

Massive prize money that we don't have.

No media or advertising.

Talking Trots podcast has disappeared with

Morts and Radley maybe have more important

things to do.

Will any of them be on course tomorrow night.

I find it very that the CEO doesnt want to promote

a BIG night of prize money plus Morts gifted with

good draws.

Frog

Its hard to believe that on tonight's news that

Austrians loss the most of any country in the 

world and we think this wont  get worse with

intertest rates, rents, food and utility going

thought the roof. DREAM LAND

First cut is the biggest.

Victoria has had 2 changes.

Its very hard to get  BLOOD FROM A STONE......

Chopchop43

The industry struggling isn't just a GP issue, $1.10 pops drawing to lead , happens at alot of the venues where we race on tracks smaller than 850 metres ,collie last season was a prime example of that , I think the easiest solution is to fix the handicapping and programing to stop the best horse necessarily drawing to lead or at least having to do some work to get there

JayJay

I agree. See above....."It is the product that is broken, it is the product that punters won't bet on"  et al......."and bugger all to do with where we race."

It just so happens that given the big stakes on offer, Gloucester Park is responsible for the vast majority of Industry losses. And spending 25 million renovating the place won't solve a single thing unless the product is fixed and the punters reconnect, unless that relationship  is beyond recovery. Just like closing down Kellerberrin or Williams won't change a thing.

How long have we been saying the handicap system is rooted, how long have we been saying that PBD MUST be used as a matter of course, how long have we been calling out the abysmal programming, the ridiculous 5 and 6 horse FFA fields, how long has the term "drop back on steroids" been invoked, how long has no handicapping, no turnover, no integrity, no future been a catchcry.......for a damn long time, I can assure you....to the point that an Industry that costs $59 million to operate is generating just 12.4 million in turnover revenue. This situation hasn't evolved overnight but the inertia for change from the entrenched power brokers is immovable.

BOTRA, WACHRA and to a lesser degree WASBA have been benched, almost made redundant and the overall Industry is suffering greatly as a result.

Jasper

I have returned to the sport after 10 years of not being involved and it seems to me that Racing WA are hellbent on closing harness racing in this state. Some of the decisions and reluctance to change are quite mind boggling. Who makes these decisions and why are they not accountable? If you look at the board of rwwa most of them don’t seem to have any or much experience in sport administration let alone a sport with unique challenges as horse/dog racing. They seem to be professional board members with expertise in the bottomless concept of governance. Individually they may be great people for all I know but collectively they are responsible for the demise of our sport.

warrenrobinson

Surely the CEO of GP would be in attendance for the big Westbred night.