Queensland Inter DominionHarness & Greyhounds

Chariotsonfire

Recently announced that Queensland will hold the Inters for the next three years for a stake of $1m with two heats and a final.

Thoughts anyone?

JayJay

Just the two heats is a retrograde step. WA did a good thing returning it back to it's original format after it was prostituted by HRA. However in spite of throwing over 1 million at the Final for the 3 years and having Lazarus and Lenny over here, it failed to revitalise or re- energise our Industry or turnover. It was a very expensive exercise and we will never forget Meadowbranch DJ....ever.

Million dollar stake is okay, up from the last few years.

Racing it on a 1000m track is good.

Apart from not having any money and with Harness turnover bleeding ahead of likely stakes cuts, WA will never see another Interdominion Series whilst it's principal track is 800m.

AbbysAce

And the Trotters are racing for 400k which is a good result.

sonny

I have booked a room at my mates place at Redcliffe... 

Chopchop43

JayJay said:

Just the two heats is a retrograde step. WA did a good thing returning it back to it's original format after it was prostituted by HRA. However in spite of throwing over 1 million at the Final for the 3 years and having Lazarus and Lenny over here, it failed to revitalise or re- energise our Industry or turnover. It was a very expensive exercise and we will never forget Meadowbranch DJ....ever.

Million dollar stake is okay, up from the last few years.

Racing it on a 1000m track is good.

Apart from not having any money and with Harness turnover bleeding ahead of likely stakes cuts, WA will never see another Interdominion Series whilst it's principal track is 800m.

I was there for all 3 finals and fair too say the crowds and atmosphere were fantastic, off the top of my head I don't remember any of the connections complaining about the size of the track, it may not have revitalised the industry long term (fair to say there are 100s of reasons why the industry is dying nation wide not just in WA) but it did what every inters series has done before and after and that's bringing eyes on to the product for the period of time around the heats and final

JayJay

Me to, including that hopeless Sunday Final at 38 degrees when the very modest crowd who did go got cooked. We had arguably the best horse in the world present in Lazarus for another one and there were not any patrons sitting in the Ledger Stand. Go back a few decades and that stand was packed both upstairs and down.....and you didn't need an interdominion to fill it up.

With respect, you wouldn't know a big crowd and a fantastic atmosphere if you fell over one as you were not present when there really were monstrous crowds and electric atmospheres. And given current direction, regardless of redevelopment or otherwise, you are unlikely to ever experience it.

Just take a look at the GP AGM balance sheet and do some reflection. Now, that organisation has been run by some extremely high profile and enormously successful business people in the past 30 years, well in it's entire history actually, including current day major sponsors, owners  and supporters.

Surely they would not tolerate in their own businesses and board rooms the sort of numbers that dominate the financial statements. They would be calling for heads to role immediately....because they would be going broke at a rate of knots. RWWA props up GP with grants (averaging $37,000 per meeting) that hide a lot of issues and despite the bleatings of the CEO that GP has higher turnover than Melton or wherever and all the usual flannel, Cameron Browns Issues Paper clearly shows WA's place in the National Harness Turnover stakes ....and it is a bad read. With Harness prizemoney the highest in Australia at $122.4k per meeting, it languishes in 4th place behind Victoria ($273k), Queensland ($251k) and NSW ($246k) in turnover per race, with a disturbing $193k.

Whatever figures you look at......on course turnover (disappearing rapidly), on course patronage (almost negligible) and gate takings (falling annually to insignificant levels), hospitality (in decline) with prime restaurant areas closed for significant parts of the year, sponsorship (dropped by nearly half in the last 10 years), media coverage, the decrepit state of the facilities, the "leaning wall of heritage" propped up by scaffolding......and these are long term trends.

But nothing ever happens. The odd question at the AGM is batted off with vague non descript answers, those bold enough to ask anything are looked at like escapees from a leper colony,  most sit there and say zilch, status quo is retained , the same old gang of mates and acolytes get re-elected each year, a minutes silence for the dearly departed,  the President reads out his little changed annual pre-prepared speech, they hand out the obligatory life membership (in many cases well deserved) and off for a bit of supper, see you next year.

As for the 800m track....our Pacing Cup next week, very high stake money at $450k.....spot the visiting horse. Of course shifting our Cup to virtually clash with the NZ Cup and having the Inters at the end of November.....the winner is....the bigger tracks.

Chopchop43

JayJay said:

Me to, including that hopeless Sunday Final at 38 degrees when the very modest crowd who did go got cooked. We had arguably the best horse in the world present in Lazarus for another one and there were not any patrons sitting in the Ledger Stand. Go back a few decades and that stand was packed both upstairs and down.....and you didn't need an interdominion to fill it up.

With respect, you wouldn't know a big crowd and a fantastic atmosphere if you fell over one as you were not present when there really were monstrous crowds and electric atmospheres. And given current direction, regardless of redevelopment or otherwise, you are unlikely to ever experience it.

Just take a look at the GP AGM balance sheet and do some reflection. Now, that organisation has been run by some extremely high profile and enormously successful business people in the past 30 years, well in it's entire history actually, including current day major sponsors, owners  and supporters.

Surely they would not tolerate in their own businesses and board rooms the sort of numbers that dominate the financial statements. They would be calling for heads to role immediately....because they would be going broke at a rate of knots. RWWA props up GP with grants (averaging $37,000 per meeting) that hide a lot of issues and despite the bleatings of the CEO that GP has higher turnover than Melton or wherever and all the usual flannel, Cameron Browns Issues Paper clearly shows WA's place in the National Harness Turnover stakes ....and it is a bad read. With Harness prizemoney the highest in Australia at $122.4k per meeting, it languishes in 4th place behind Victoria ($273k), Queensland ($251k) and NSW ($246k) in turnover per race, with a disturbing $193k.

Whatever figures you look at......on course turnover (disappearing rapidly), on course patronage (almost negligible) and gate takings (falling annually to insignificant levels), hospitality (in decline) with prime restaurant areas closed for significant parts of the year, sponsorship (dropped by nearly half in the last 10 years), media coverage, the decrepit state of the facilities, the "leaning wall of heritage" propped up by scaffolding......and these are long term trends.

But nothing ever happens. The odd question at the AGM is batted off with vague non descript answers, those bold enough to ask anything are looked at like escapees from a leper colony,  most sit there and say zilch, status quo is retained , the same old gang of mates and acolytes get re-elected each year, a minutes silence for the dearly departed,  the President reads out his little changed annual pre-prepared speech, they hand out the obligatory life membership (in many cases well deserved) and off for a bit of supper, see you next year.

As for the 800m track....our Pacing Cup next week, very high stake money at $450k.....spot the visiting horse. Of course shifting our Cup to virtually clash with the NZ Cup and having the Inters at the end of November.....the winner is....the bigger tracks.

you just answered your own question , why travel to the other side of Australia when you are racing for just as much money over there, it has zilch to do with the size of the track it's the logistics, as for crowds that Sunday I thought was pretty good had a few non trotting friends with me who were impressed with the size of the crowd and atmosphere, the fact of the matter is this , giant crowds at the trots across the nation are a thing of the past , it has very little to do with the track, or even the handicapping and programming , watching the races is alot easier accessible these days you don't have to leave the comfort of your own living room to watch and bet, you are also competing with a plethora of entertainment venues in the city , why not attend the one of 100s of pubs, bars and clubs within the city where you can either watch the trots on a TV or even you phone , that's the reality of the situation I'm regards to that

warrenrobinson

President's report John Burt 2010. The new Racetrack  Whilst the track design has yet to be finalised , present indications are that it will be 960mtrs in length with 100 meter radius, 22 meters wide, plus a safety lane with 12% camber on the bends. The proposed track is designed to fully utilise the available site envelope whilst still allowing for integration of the track with with residental and commercial facilities. The design will ensure stresses are kept low on the bends and will enable horses to race with enable horses ti race with minimal stresses. Spiral curves will be integrated into each bend to aid the movement in and out of each bend again minimising  stresses. Here we are 14 years later nothing has changed and moving forward nothing will.

warrenrobinson

warrenrobinson said:

President's report John Burt 2010. The new Racetrack  Whilst the track design has yet to be finalised , present indications are that it will be 960mtrs in length with 100 meter radius, 22 meters wide, plus a safety lane with 12% camber on the bends. The proposed track is designed to fully utilise the available site envelope whilst still allowing for integration of the track with with residental and commercial facilities. The design will ensure stresses are kept low on the bends and will enable horses to race with enable horses ti race with minimal stresses. Spiral curves will be integrated into each bend to aid the movement in and out of each bend again minimising  stresses. Here we are 14 years later nothing has changed and moving forward nothing will. Fred Kersley was on the committee at the time.

JayJay

What we are racing for is completely and utterly unsustainable. How the principal race track is being operated and managed is completely unsustainable. How Harness Racing is being administered nationally is unsustainable. The races are having no trouble filling up their prime metro venues for their big days ...and I mean filling up.

The fact of the matter is that the product is on the nose and the Principal Metro Club has given up on crowds, and the crowds have given up on the Principal Metro Club. A bouncy council and fireworks is about as innovative as they get

They are racing for LESS money over there. Victoria Cup was $300k (less next year) versus WA Cup $450k, standard FFA Victoria just reduced from $24k to $22.5k versus $31k.

Watching the races is easier but they aren't watching harness races as illustrated by turnover. Harness's overall share of turnover is hovering around a pathetic and unsustainable10 percent .... back from the 40% or 50% it was when the TAB was started. Yes, there is more competition, the Dogs and the Casino but processional $1.04 favourite parade laps have had their day as the choice of punters. They don't bet on it and they don't attend. On course turnover at GP is bordering on irrelevant, especially on Tuesdays. Seagulls don't bet.

Chopchop43

JayJay said:

What we are racing for is completely and utterly unsustainable. How the principal race track is being operated and managed is completely unsustainable. How Harness Racing is being administered nationally is unsustainable. The races are having no trouble filling up their prime metro venues for their big days ...and I mean filling up.

The fact of the matter is that the product is on the nose and the Principal Metro Club has given up on crowds, and the crowds have given up on the Principal Metro Club. A bouncy council and fireworks is about as innovative as they get

They are racing for LESS money over there. Victoria Cup was $300k (less next year) versus WA Cup $450k, standard FFA Victoria just reduced from $24k to $22.5k versus $31k.

Watching the races is easier but they aren't watching harness races as illustrated by turnover. Harness's overall share of turnover is hovering around a pathetic and unsustainable10 percent .... back from the 40% or 50% it was when the TAB was started. Yes, there is more competition, the Dogs and the Casino but processional $1.04 favourite parade laps have had their day as the choice of punters. They don't bet on it and they don't attend. On course turnover at GP is bordering on irrelevant, especially on Tuesdays. Seagulls don't bet.

yes we are racing for more money over here but thats irrelevant when you taking in to consideration the cost of bringing it over , then you add on top of that the cost of the horses health, will it cop the travel well enough to be competitive in what is usually a high pressure race ??? Why not stay in your own back yard with your horse in their familiar surroundings and cop the fact that your racing for a little less ?? We are no different to the US and over east in regards to crowds have known enough people who have been to Melton on a stock standard metro racing meeting evening and its a ghost town as well , menangle the same, the crowds you used to get in the hay day are a thing of the past you'll never get remotely close to that anywhere outside your major group 1 nights , you used to have to go to the trots just to have a bet back in the day , now look you have betting apps coming out your ears, as for people not betting on $1.04 pops that's not just a gp issue as I've said several times any track smaller than 850 tends to be very on pace bias , throw in the fact we have a handicapping system that allows this to a degree your going to continue down that same path , not only that but with the speeds and times horses are going these days those tight circuits are completely outdated and unsafe

JayJay

Leap To Fame, Just Believe and others just stamped their passports to leave their backyards for Addington.

savethegame

Thinking about going back to Moonee Valley for Harness Racing.Once they needed 12,000 patrons to break even at the Valley re--rent.Someone that has got honest intentions, they were gone owed Government 66 million, and hand land back which was valued at 100 million, was the intent.

Strong push to head back to the Valley &i magine sell Melton where the track is located. as the second parcel.

G P. use to feed off the football followers between Oct end Nov. With the likes of Mal
Brown V Ron Alexander match race coaches E F
&S.F. think calculated extra 10,000 turned up.
Ron Barassi broke 1400m record in cart ,then a Para Olympian broke his record with a Duffy trained
horse.

There's alot different aspects invite the ten most promising 16 yearold footballers from different country towns to compete in competition during meeting. both sides of body, with winner to recieve x amount from eagles & dockers x amount donated to charity by the winners choice.

There not one bit interested in a extra soul walking into G.P. a owner who goes to G.P. has a couple stubbles hopes his horses in a later race because the piss is still hot race 1,2.

JayJay

The annual financials give you a glimpse into how well the joint is running.

Gate receipts for the entire season of approx 100 meetings including some "Marquee Events'....the WA Cup, Nullabor, New Years Eve etc come in at  around $120k. Pathetic, embarrassing actually, but does anyone say or do anything about this monumental under utilisation of an asset described as part of "Perth's premier sporting and entertainment precinct!"  

 

I have been secretary/treasurer of our local footy club. We have seven home games per season. Gate Receipts for 2024 were $23k. The food is better, the beer is colder and much cheaper, the company fabulous, plenty of people to talk to, the oval, although minus river views, is immaculately prepared  and surrounded by magnificent Karri Forest.

warrenrobinson

Crikey JayJay the average per home game is $3285 compared to GP average $1200 with river views no wonder the it's being sold.

Gilgamesh

sonny said:

I have booked a room at my mates place at Redcliffe... 

I'm trying to work a family holiday out if it. We need to get to Cairns but sadly that is June, leave wont stretch that far.

sonny

Hi Gilga, Thats a pity..I  will be staying with my mate from Sydney who has trained from there for about 45 years.. He trained out of Fairfield before that..

Chopchop43

JayJay said:

Leap To Fame, Just Believe and others just stamped their passports to leave their backyards for Addington.

quick google search showed that Brisbane to Christchurch flight time wise 3hrs 25mins , Brisbane to Perth 5hrs 20mins , maybe logistically easier to go to nz , maybe alot more beneficial for the horse to perform at its peak too sit on a plane for only 3 and a half hours compared to 5 and a half ?

Chopchop43

JayJay said:

The annual financials give you a glimpse into how well the joint is running.

Gate receipts for the entire season of approx 100 meetings including some "Marquee Events'....the WA Cup, Nullabor, New Years Eve etc come in at  around $120k. Pathetic, embarrassing actually, but does anyone say or do anything about this monumental under utilisation of an asset described as part of "Perth's premier sporting and entertainment precinct!"  

 

I have been secretary/treasurer of our local footy club. We have seven home games per season. Gate Receipts for 2024 were $23k. The food is better, the beer is colder and much cheaper, the company fabulous, plenty of people to talk to, the oval, although minus river views, is immaculately prepared  and surrounded by magnificent Karri Forest.

in this day in age with the access to racing streams on your phone Gate receipts would be close to irrelevant, I think if you were to dive into the gate receipts across harness and the gallops for the past 15 years you'd find attendance at the majority of tracks down, your outer country tracks are always going to draw a crowd its a day out for the community that don't have the plethora of entertainment options we have in and around the city

JayJay

No shortage of patrons at Moonee Valley, Ascot packed for Irish Day.  They work on and succeed in drawing crowds. GP averaging 100 paying customers per night. We got more to our AGM out at the "Mill. 

Yep, out in the sticks, we are resigned to sitting on our front verandahs, whittling sticks and shooting at traveling salesman. Glad to attend the trots or the rodeo so we can utilise the flushing toilets.

warrenrobinson

So if patrons aren't required why redevelop GP ?

Chopchop43

warrenrobinson said:

So if patrons aren't required why redevelop GP ?

at no stage did I say there not required, I'm saying with the amount of platforms that your able to stream racing the reliance of actually having to go to the races/trots is a thing of the past isn't it a giant coincidence that since sky racing has become more readily available that there has been a decline in attendance to your stock standard (I'm not including days like Irish day, or for our Industry Italian fireworks night which draws in an above average Friday night crowd in this discussion as they are outliers) metro/city class meetings ??

Gilgamesh

Chopchop43 said:

warrenrobinson said:

So if patrons aren't required why redevelop GP ?

at no stage did I say there not required, I'm saying with the amount of platforms that your able to stream racing the reliance of actually having to go to the races/trots is a thing of the past isn't it a giant coincidence that since sky racing has become more readily available that there has been a decline in attendance to your stock standard (I'm not including days like Irish day, or for our Industry Italian fireworks night which draws in an above average Friday night crowd in this discussion as they are outliers) metro/city class meetings ??

As per previous threads betting figures would suggest it's not that they are accessing it through other mediums it is more likely they pay no interest to the sport at all.

JayJay

Correct Gil, the numbers don't lie. They say unequivocally that with harness's overall market share at 10%, "they" are not accessing betting on harness via PubTabs, Phones, TABtouch Apps, Computers, filling out tickets on course, sending smoke signals to corporates or by any other means. The product is a non-seller, the punters leave it on the shelf, they have abandoned the Industry.

And it's getting worse, as the figures once again indicate, and still the propaganda flunkies continue to fiddle whilst Rome burns. Both radio and various podcasts endlessly spruik "another great programme" or "another great nights racing down at GP last night", oblivious it seems to the "camels on the horizon". The continual B/S  convinces no one and those that see it for what it is, are hesitant, for obvious and understandable self preservational reasons, to say anything.....it is not great racing, it was not another great night, just who are they trying to kid. The occasional nod and wink to a 33 second quarter or an unchallenged cross to the lead and no one having a crack is the best we get, all said out the side of the mouth. Snicker, snicker.

Returning the product to a competitive, properly handicapped, correctly programmed product, based on rigorous and consistently enforced integrity standards is our only hope. Widening the footprint and attracting more youthful participants is critical. Ditching the current disaster of a Business Model as from January 1 after 6 years of Industry decline is our last chance to get things right.

Chopchop43

Sorry about my ignorance but do we have the figures from all the corperates to suggest that harness racing isn't being bet upon. In regards to getting new people into the industry and trying to regrow it, the major issue your going to get and I believe it's Australia wide not just WA , the product whether it be at menagnle, Melton, gp or collie is deadset boring and unattractive when you compare it to the gallops, is it a track size issue ?? I don't believe so, is it a handicapping or programming issue?? Maybe but I'm not convinced , if you want to create an attractive product we can't rely on what happened yesterday year , there needs to be some initiative and some thinking outside of the square, which is hard to do because there are people within the industry Australia wide that would rather live in the 70s and 80s rather then the present and that holds the sport back

JayJay

We certainly do have the figures. Corporate and betting exchange figures are included in all the data. Refer to the Issues Paper circulated recently.

Markovina

One bitterly dissappointing aspect re GP and re trying to get people to attend , is they seem to a fair while back just thrown in the towel , no effort made at all 

Where as back in the day , late 70s , when i was pro punting for about 4 years , and living in a very affluent suburb i might ad , such fond memories , renting an old but solid elevated 1br unit , even had an old colour tv in it , plus the old wooden wardrobe and the old double bed ,and it had an IGA size off street car park where you could park anywhere  and i was paying the princely sum of $34 a week rent , thats why that time period was known as the halcyon days of living , you know the goal , then win a grand this week on the punt , and rent/food/petrol the lot would be $200 tops , thus we have got a nice $800 profit and not a worry in the world , and not answerable to any priiick 

And at the letter boxes at that block of units , about twice a year , there would be a lovely direct mail colour brochure from GP promoting an upcoming meeting , plus what dining options were available , and best of all 2 free complimentary tickets which i gleefully accepted because i went every week 

The point im making , they actually made an effort to get people to attend back then 

Chopchop43

Markovina said:

One bitterly dissappointing aspect re GP and re trying to get people to attend , is they seem to a fair while back just thrown in the towel , no effort made at all 

Where as back in the day , late 70s , when i was pro punting for about 4 years , and living in a very affluent suburb i might ad , such fond memories , renting an old but solid elevated 1br unit , even had an old colour tv in it , plus the old wooden wardrobe and the old double bed ,and it had an IGA size off street car park where you could park anywhere  and i was paying the princely sum of $34 a week rent , thats why that time period was known as the halcyon days of living , you know the goal , then win a grand this week on the punt , and rent/food/petrol the lot would be $200 tops , thus we have got a nice $800 profit and not a worry in the world , and not answerable to any priiick 

And at the letter boxes at that block of units , about twice a year , there would be a lovely direct mail colour brochure from GP promoting an upcoming meeting , plus what dining options were available , and best of all 2 free complimentary tickets which i gleefully accepted because i went every week 

The point im making , they actually made an effort to get people to attend back then 

Correct me if im wrong but back in the 70s you used to have to go to the trots and bet ??? Don't need to now day, and it shows across most race tracks in Australia these days

warrenrobinson

no handicap no turnover no future

JayJay

Chopchop43 said:

Correct me if im wrong but back in the 70s you used to have to go to the trots and bet ??? Don't need to now day, and it shows across most race tracks in Australia these days

The WA TAB started in 1961. There were TAB agencies everywhere in addition to SP Bookie shops at every pub and the back of every hairdressers shop across the metropolitan area. There was no necessity to be on course to have a bet, that was back way before then.

Chopchop43

JayJay said:

Chopchop43 said:

Correct me if im wrong but back in the 70s you used to have to go to the trots and bet ??? Don't need to now day, and it shows across most race tracks in Australia these days

The WA TAB started in 1961. There were TAB agencies everywhere in addition to SP Bookie shops at every pub and the back of every hairdressers shop across the metropolitan area. There was no necessity to be on course to have a bet, that was back way before then.

so what drew the bums to seats back then and what's changed ??? The 800m track was still an 800m track back then so we can't use that as an excuse anyway shape or form, even looking back at 5 years ago I thought the trots were still pretty well advertised and they still couldn't drag a crowd in ??? We all harp on for the need to change yet whenever 'change' gets brought up there seems to be nothing but negativity and a need to reminisce how back in the day (insert quote) I think there is a need to innovate and keep up with the times if the sport is to remain relivent even if we aren't necessarily on board with some of the ideas ,there still probably better than sitting on our hands