GP- WA Pacing Cup (Gp1) & Norms Daughter Classic (F&M, Gp2)

VillageKid · November 7

GP

Race 1- Mikis Beach, Whataretheodds, Ventura, Runningonempty

Race 2- Brickies Dream, Otis, Xceptional Arma, Chaco Eagle

Race 3- Skylou, Street Hawk, The Miki Taker, Ima Fivestar General

Race 4- Steno, Aardiebytheseaside, Penny Black, Little Darling

Race 5- Captain Ravishing, Mister Smartee, Pinny Tiger, Minstrel

Race 6- Machnificent, Steel The Show, Wildwest, Alcopony

Race 7- Hoppys Way, Tommy Waterhouse, Sugar Street, Rock Me Over

Race 8- Gee Heza Sport, Hampton Banner, Rupert Of Lincoln, Dominus Factum

Race 9- Christopher Dance, Thenu Came Along, Golden Lode, Tualou

Race 10- Frisky Styx, High Price, Awaitinginstructions, Chivalry

Narrogin

R1- Just Betty

R2- Sukhovey Windstorm

R3- Majic Bay

R4- Follow The Ark

R5- Mister Macedon

R6- Swanbourne Spunk

R7- Tommy Price

cisco · November 7

Hope you are right in race 5 at Narrogin VK [-O<

Gilgamesh · November 8

R3: No1 Thomson Bay getting out to a more realistic price now, it can lead and win.

R4: Im not usually one to bet odds on but Steno got back out to $1.50 and that was enough for me. She has just become the total pro.

R5: I cant go past No11 Captain Ravishing - the way it sets up for him, second time around at GP under race condtions. It all points to him and shopping around you can go 2by3 and cover your bet with the place money.

R6: I'm not liking how Ryan Warwick has been driving them of late but with a good drift expected i'll back him in one more time on Alcapony on the thought/hope he shoots straight to the fence and gives the horse a chance to dash home.

Narrogin.
R2: No9 Sukovey Windstorm is going to struggle to find a weaker race, tonights the night surely!

Good luck all.

Markovina · November 8

Just the one im quite keen on , Narrogin Race 5 Horse no 7 American Monarch @ $19 E/W

Well graded , honest , going nicely , gate 7 , pegs is often a great spot at Narrogin , should get a snipers run , needs a touch of luck but is good enough to win , and i reckon it is double its correct price

sonny · November 8

R3. Think the Miki Taker is over the odds .. Dont know where it gets to in the run but Aiden is flying..

Markovina · November 8

That 100k Norms Daughter , what was AC Lewis doing in the home straight ( unless there was a gear malfunction ) stopped driving it to take an eternity ( in the context of the race ) to pull the plugs

Ive heard of jockeys fumbling for the whip , but he fumbled for the ear plugs

As Gilga says , there is allways next week , but it was a 100k listed classic for mares , and in my opinion it should have won

Gilgamesh · November 8

It must be a lot harder to see from in the cart than watching on TV but he really didn't need to go on Captain Ravishing. Pinny Tiger had pulled himself in to the ground - the moving line were always going to be going past him and it would have got in to the clear.

Terrific effort by the winner, Deni talked the talk and the horse walked the walk.

Markovina · November 8

I said about 18 mths ago Deni was a champion driver , great to see her win that big race

Some effort by Minstrel 1.55 in the breeze over the long trip , i think it might have won the Derby , or some big race beating Magnificent Storm , and Colin Brown who drove it basically said it was Bonds best ever horse , then they had a rushed trip to Menangle , its been ok up to this point , but tonights effort was the performance of a top line horse and a performance you thought Minstrel ( how it looked as a young horse ) could achieve

Gilgamesh · November 8

Just like I said Ryan shoot it straight to the top :D

JayJay · November 8

Not sure Ravishing quite gets the 13 furlongs? And he doesn't appear totally comfortable out 3 wide on the bends, gets his head sideways. Minstrel a really toughened old Free For Aller and Mister Smartee went terrific, probably wins next year, but he had a perfect trip. Next year he runs down Minstrel? Just thinking out loud.

Gilgamesh · November 8

Blaze Coops seems a very long price.

sonny · November 8

Good Selection Marko, No luck wins if it got out

Gilgamesh · November 8

Appears as though Kyle may have only been at GP tonight for the fireworks. Very good run Blaze.

Ivorytrunkey86 · November 8

Minstrel huge,I just can’t get onboard with the pacing cup being in November,doesn’t have the same feel for mine.

JimmyPop · November 8

I cannot believe how poor the tote figures are on Gloucester Park and Narrogin tonight.

I honestly thought they were W.A. pools only but was reliably informed it is Supertab combined.

How is the industry surviving. I understand with corporates wagering on these venues the numbers increase but the pools are so poor.

RWWA must be propping the industry up by a big amount.

If it was a turnover based for stakemoney paid out then it would be blue ribbons for the industry.

JayJay · November 8

Been diabolical for years and years Jimmy, you actually have lobbed a high tide, they are up on average tonight. Cup Night, they have to put fireworks on and combine it with Italian night to get anyone to go along. It has been unsustainable for decades.

Chopchop43 · November 8

Why would Narrogin be so horrendous aswell ?? Think it shows its not just a gp issue , it's actually across the board

TimmyBee · November 8

Chopchop43 said:
Why would Narrogin be so horrendous aswell ?? Think it shows its not just a gp issue , it's actually across the board

Doesn’t fit the narrative

JayJay · November 8

No narrative, just some facts and comparisons.

Fair to say that comparing the highest profile meeting of the year with a large social media advertising profile, along with all the star horses, drivers, high stakes,fireworks, Italian Night, probably a bouncy castle or two and free entry tickets handed out to sponsors etc ....with a very low profile Community Race Meeting at Narrogin is hardly fair but we'll do it anyway...and for balance, let's include last Saturdays Ascot Meeting. Far from the highest profile day at Ascot but it fills out the comparative picture. Too many facts are never enough.

Ascot:

9 races, Win Pool Total $546k at an average of $60.6k on Total Stakes of $900k. Stakes paid/Win pool ratio of 1.64 (Highest individual win pool was $99.7k on the Crawford)

Gloucester Park:

10 races, Win Pool Total $108k at an average of $10.8k on Total Stakes of $718k. Stakes paid/Win pool Ratio of 6.64 (Highest individual win pool was $18.1k on The Cup)

Narrogin:

7 races, Win Pool Total $28.6k at an average of $4.1k on Total Stakes of $43.7k. Stakes paid/Win pool ratio of 1.52 (Highest individual win pool was $9.4k on race 4)

So, with universal agreement that turnover is the lifeblood of the Industry, clearly Gloucester Park is the most "expensive" turnover of the three based on the indicative Tab Touch win pool sizes. Undeniable. And for a miniscule stakes pay out, Narrogin is the least subsidised of the three meetings.

Even if the WA Cup Stake of $450k (an outrider) is substituted with a standard $31k FFA stake, the GP Stakes paid/Win pool ratio still comes in at a staggeringly high 2.76.

So, in answer to the question, I agree and have stated very often, that it is 'across the board' but the under performance of Gloucester Park on a Friday night with it's turnover not even close to being commensurate with the stakes payout is the horrendous aspect.

As Jimmy summised correctly, RWWA is propping up the Industry and we know where the vast majority of that subsidy goes....and it ain't to Narrogin.

Chopchop43 · November 8

JayJay said:
No narrative, just some facts and comparisons.

Fair to say that comparing the highest profile meeting of the year with a large social media advertising profile, along with all the star horses, drivers, high stakes,fireworks, Italian Night, probably a bouncy castle or two and free entry tickets handed out to sponsors etc ....with a very low profile Community Race Meeting at Narrogin is hardly fair but we'll do it anyway...and for balance, let's include last Saturdays Ascot Meeting. Far from the highest profile day at Ascot but it fills out the comparative picture. Too many facts are never enough.

Ascot:

9 races, Win Pool Total $546k at an average of $60.6k on Total Stakes of $900k. Stakes paid/Win pool ratio of 1.64 (Highest individual win pool was $99.7k on the Crawford)

Gloucester Park:

10 races, Win Pool Total $108k at an average of $10.8k on Total Stakes of $718k. Stakes paid/Win pool Ratio of 6.64 (Highest individual win pool was $18.1k on The Cup)

Narrogin:

7 races, Win Pool Total $28.6k at an average of $4.1k on Total Stakes of $43.7k. Stakes paid/Win pool ratio of 1.52 (Highest individual win pool was $9.4k on race 4)

So, with universal agreement that turnover is the lifeblood of the Industry, clearly Gloucester Park is the most "expensive" turnover of the three based on the indicative Tab Touch win pool sizes. Undeniable. And for a miniscule stakes pay out, Narrogin is the least subsidised of the three meetings.

Even if the WA Cup Stake of $450k (an outrider) is substituted with a standard $31k FFA stake, the GP Stakes paid/Win pool ratio still comes in at a staggeringly high 2.76.

So, in answer to the question, I agree and have stated very often, that it is 'across the board' but the under performance of Gloucester Park on a Friday night with it's turnover not even close to being commensurate with the stakes payout is the horrendous aspect.

As Jimmy summised correctly, RWWA is propping up the Industry and we know where the vast majority of that subsidy goes....and it ain't to Narrogin.

I just find it completely unfair that since it was discussed about the closure of some outer country tracks , that GP has been bashed like it has been, are the expectations for GP to perform turnover wise higher 100% it's the premier track in WA but its not like any of the other clubs are producing better at the moment, GP on a Friday night offers up as good viewing as any other track in WA regardless of what turnover figures suggest, last night's racing was of a high quality hence why I would suggest maybe the poor turnover numbers are just an indication of where the industry is at as a whole rather than it being just a GP issue. People aren't betting on the trots no matter where they are racing maybe some innovation and new ideas across the board are required to pick the product up off the canvas rather than living in the nostalgic bliss of yesteryear racing has evolved unfortunately harness racing in WA hasn't evolved with it and we are being left behind

TimmyBee · November 8

JayJay said:
No narrative, just some facts and comparisons.

Fair to say that comparing the highest profile meeting of the year with a large social media advertising profile, along with all the star horses, drivers, high stakes,fireworks, Italian Night, probably a bouncy castle or two and free entry tickets handed out to sponsors etc ....with a very low profile Community Race Meeting at Narrogin is hardly fair but we'll do it anyway...and for balance, let's include last Saturdays Ascot Meeting. Far from the highest profile day at Ascot but it fills out the comparative picture. Too many facts are never enough.

Ascot:

9 races, Win Pool Total $546k at an average of $60.6k on Total Stakes of $900k. Stakes paid/Win pool ratio of 1.64 (Highest individual win pool was $99.7k on the Crawford)

Gloucester Park:

10 races, Win Pool Total $108k at an average of $10.8k on Total Stakes of $718k. Stakes paid/Win pool Ratio of 6.64 (Highest individual win pool was $18.1k on The Cup)

Narrogin:

7 races, Win Pool Total $28.6k at an average of $4.1k on Total Stakes of $43.7k. Stakes paid/Win pool ratio of 1.52 (Highest individual win pool was $9.4k on race 4)

So, with universal agreement that turnover is the lifeblood of the Industry, clearly Gloucester Park is the most "expensive" turnover of the three based on the indicative Tab Touch win pool sizes. Undeniable. And for a miniscule stakes pay out, Narrogin is the least subsidised of the three meetings.

Even if the WA Cup Stake of $450k (an outrider) is substituted with a standard $31k FFA stake, the GP Stakes paid/Win pool ratio still comes in at a staggeringly high 2.76.

So, in answer to the question, I agree and have stated very often, that it is 'across the board' but the under performance of Gloucester Park on a Friday night with it's turnover not even close to being commensurate with the stakes payout is the horrendous aspect.

As Jimmy summised correctly, RWWA is propping up the Industry and we know where the vast majority of that subsidy goes....and it ain't to Narrogin.

the narrative of you and wazza never getting a chance to sit on the big boys table so now every opportunity you get to bash gp you take it. As chop chop said it’s across the board so why don’t you sook about Narrogins turnover? Oh wait no you can’t because it doesn’t fit your agenda. And yes chop chop is right, now tracks are going to close you have started bashing them more.

sonny · November 8

Hi TimmyBee, May I ask? Who are the big boys and where is their table??

JayJay · November 8

Denialists hate facts.

warrenrobinson · November 8

The good thing about owning your own table is that you don't have to leech of others for a invite.

Muldoon · November 9

How does the driver not get suspended in this incident that knocked Cordero out of the race. He clearly moved off his inside running to get on the back of the breeze horse, then opted to go back when the leader was holding the breeze horse & knocked Cordero out of the race & likely prizemoney

Muldoon · November 9

TimmyBee said:

JayJay said:
No narrative, just some facts and comparisons.

Fair to say that comparing the highest profile meeting of the year with a large social media advertising profile, along with all the star horses, drivers, high stakes,fireworks, Italian Night, probably a bouncy castle or two and free entry tickets handed out to sponsors etc ....with a very low profile Community Race Meeting at Narrogin is hardly fair but we'll do it anyway...and for balance, let's include last Saturdays Ascot Meeting. Far from the highest profile day at Ascot but it fills out the comparative picture. Too many facts are never enough.

Ascot:

9 races, Win Pool Total $546k at an average of $60.6k on Total Stakes of $900k. Stakes paid/Win pool ratio of 1.64 (Highest individual win pool was $99.7k on the Crawford)

Gloucester Park:

10 races, Win Pool Total $108k at an average of $10.8k on Total Stakes of $718k. Stakes paid/Win pool Ratio of 6.64 (Highest individual win pool was $18.1k on The Cup)

Narrogin:

7 races, Win Pool Total $28.6k at an average of $4.1k on Total Stakes of $43.7k. Stakes paid/Win pool ratio of 1.52 (Highest individual win pool was $9.4k on race 4)

So, with universal agreement that turnover is the lifeblood of the Industry, clearly Gloucester Park is the most "expensive" turnover of the three based on the indicative Tab Touch win pool sizes. Undeniable. And for a miniscule stakes pay out, Narrogin is the least subsidised of the three meetings.

Even if the WA Cup Stake of $450k (an outrider) is substituted with a standard $31k FFA stake, the GP Stakes paid/Win pool ratio still comes in at a staggeringly high 2.76.

So, in answer to the question, I agree and have stated very often, that it is 'across the board' but the under performance of Gloucester Park on a Friday night with it's turnover not even close to being commensurate with the stakes payout is the horrendous aspect.

As Jimmy summised correctly, RWWA is propping up the Industry and we know where the vast majority of that subsidy goes....and it ain't to Narrogin.

the narrative of you and wazza never getting a chance to sit on the big boys table so now every opportunity you get to bash gp you take it. As chop chop said it’s across the board so why don’t you sook about Narrogins turnover? Oh wait no you can’t because it doesn’t fit your agenda. And yes chop chop is right, now tracks are going to close you have started bashing them more.

You sound like the one with an agenda, thought Jayjay detailed very well in his post & even provided an outlier to get a figure for a normal GP meeting which was still far higher than Ascot and/or Narrogin % wise

Chopchop43 · November 9

So let's say we sell gp off or for arguments sake increase the track size (not that it's the only 800m goat track in the state serving up leader bias racing) what do we do to increase the disgusting turnover at the other tracks in WA, or will we continue to bleed out like we are now?? The fact of the matter is the industry is going backwards at the rate of knots and rather than try to fix the major issues at hand people would rather just complain about GP and live in the nostalgia of the 70s and 80s

Markovina · November 9

Just the one E/W bet for me at Bunbury tonight

Race 5 , horse 3 Shoobees Double @ $5 , limited field and i think it can win

JayJay · November 9

What we do is we make a constructive submission (in my case 6 pages) to the widely circulated Issues Paper produced by Cameron Brown and make positive suggestions on:

Handicapping, handicapping and handicapping, to produce a competitive racing product that punters who have rejected the often referred to on this forum "broken product" of uncompetitive racing.
Programming under the New Handicapping system that produces opportunities for horses of all abilities to race competitively and that reduces snorefests and the overwhelming prevalence of $1.20 favourites.
A realignment of stakemoney distribution away from the current model of "over focus" on the top end making the product more viable for the broad majority of participants. An immediate boost to the base levels of stake funding.
A realignment of the calendar to inject some sequence. logic and parity into a focussed, programmed country cups circuit.
A focus on broadening the footprint (as opposed to shrinking it) by making engagement of more participants a priority by reallocating funding (of in particular the $24.7 million dollars for GP redevelopment with an undisclosed/unknown return on investment) to an on course stabling and training centre to improve the viability for young participants to enter and be retained in the Industry.
A thorough review of the timeslots and days/nights that we race as exposed in the Issues Paper for both metropolitan and country venues.

These are just a sample of some of the ideas presented by the 7 clubs, the two Industry Associations and the over 30 individuals who bothered to actually sit down, take off their rose coloured glasses, acknowledge the appalling financial crisis that is evident to all who can read a balance sheet and put their ideas in writing for submission to the RWWA Board.

To those who can't see that the folly of operating your prime Metro venue at 38 cents (or less) in the dollar on a Friday Night (RWWA facts, not mine) is completely and utterly unacceptable, to those who think that anyone daring to criticise current practices is simply advocating a return to the "nostalgia of the past" ( a much trotted out load of old fallacious flannel), to those who don't acknowledge that every single "reinvigoration" or 'future proofing" (call it what you like) initiative thrust upon the industry in the last decade or more (the NBM that achieved none of its KPI's, multiple million dollar Interdominions, Slot races, shifting the WA cup date almost biannually, changing the "date" for age determination (what has that done for us, I ask?) or going back further, the failed rationalisation of country clubs and tracks or even the introduction of Artificial Insemination that has been rejected by the Thoroughbreds who still retain a viable breeding industry and I could go on.

Doubtless, you have all sat down and made a submission or submissions, doubtless you have canvassed your mates for positive suggestions, doubtless you have attended you industry association groups to support their efforts .....or maybe not.

Because to continue what we are doing basically unchanged as many of you suggest, without coming up with a SINGLE suggestion that I have read of what we might actually do, other than shrinking the footprint, then generating just $12.4 million turnover dollars per annum plus another $11 million in POC Tax of the $59 million it costs to put the show on each years will most definitely lead to Industry collapse.

sonny · November 9

Marko has a lot of followers .. well backed and won Well done Marko...

JayJay · November 9

JayJay said:
No narrative, just some facts and comparisons.

Fair to say that comparing the highest profile meeting of the year with a large social media advertising profile, along with all the star horses, drivers, high stakes,fireworks, Italian Night, probably a bouncy castle or two and free entry tickets handed out to sponsors etc ....with a very low profile Community Race Meeting at Narrogin is hardly fair but we'll do it anyway...and for balance, let's include last Saturdays Ascot Meeting. Far from the highest profile day at Ascot but it fills out the comparative picture. Too many facts are never enough.

Ascot:

9 races, Win Pool Total $546k at an average of $60.6k on Total Stakes of $900k. Stakes paid/Win pool ratio of 1.64 (Highest individual win pool was $99.7k on the Crawford)

Gloucester Park:

10 races, Win Pool Total $108k at an average of $10.8k on Total Stakes of $718k. Stakes paid/Win pool Ratio of 6.64 (Highest individual win pool was $18.1k on The Cup)

Narrogin:

7 races, Win Pool Total $28.6k at an average of $4.1k on Total Stakes of $43.7k. Stakes paid/Win pool ratio of 1.52 (Highest individual win pool was $9.4k on race 4)

So, with universal agreement that turnover is the lifeblood of the Industry, clearly Gloucester Park is the most "expensive" turnover of the three based on the indicative Tab Touch win pool sizes. Undeniable. And for a miniscule stakes pay out, Narrogin is the least subsidised of the three meetings.

Even if the WA Cup Stake of $450k (an outrider) is substituted with a standard $31k FFA stake, the GP Stakes paid/Win pool ratio still comes in at a staggeringly high 2.76.

So, in answer to the question, I agree and have stated very often, that it is 'across the board' but the under performance of Gloucester Park on a Friday night with it's turnover not even close to being commensurate with the stakes payout is the horrendous aspect.

As Jimmy summised correctly, RWWA is propping up the Industry and we know where the vast majority of that subsidy goes....and it ain't to Narrogin.

Bunbury last night was another "outrider meeting' with a $30k Westbred and a $14k Memorial race boosting stakes payout to $104k for the night, much much higher than normal.

Running against Melton, Menangle, Albion Park, Globe Derby on a Saturday night after the

Flemmington Carnival and Ascot is a very hard ask and compares most unfavourably with the prime slot on Friday Night that GP enjoys with much less competition.

With a win pool total of $40.1k across the 8 races, the stakes paid/win pool ratio is 2.57. Removing the two outriders and replacing them with two standard $9.36k races reduces the stakes payout to $78.8k and results in a stakes paid/win pool ratio of 1.96. This figure, well under the the GP "normalised" figure of 2.76, is achieved in the acknowledged black hole betting zone of Saturday night against the prime metro meetings in NSW, Queensland, Victoria and South Australia, but is still above the1.52 figure from Narrogin which provided the biggest win pools per dollar paid out in stakes.

G'day Punter!

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