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Methven Mile Better Eclipse

Harness & Greyhounds
Harness racing at it's best....on the grass at Methven in the Canterbury....Great run by Better Eclipse 1.57.5 in the Methven Mile. They got the Victa out and trimmed up the grass, magnificent venue and race.




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Comments

  • sonnysonny    1,302 posts
    Reminds me of Richmond before it was closed down, with many others  in N.S.W.. Has trotting benefited in N.S.W from track closures???


  • warrenrobinsonwarrenrobinson    262 posts
    Track closures certainly hasn't worked fact. Opinions are worthless without facts.

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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts

    Track closures certainly hasn't worked fact. Opinions are worthless without facts.


    well we are keeping tracks open at the moment and the industry definitely isn't moving in the right direction ,fact.

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  • SwampgasSwampgas    6 posts
    Well if both facts are correct then it's pretty obvious the problem lies elsewhere.. It's been going up to shite for a long time and nothing has been done about it.. Racing WA are only interested in 1 code mainly and are riding off any success from there. They are bean counters at best and wouldn't have a clue how to build or rebuild any business. Definitely closing tracks is a proven formula for failure for the code though.

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  • JayJayJayJay    8,085 posts



    well we are keeping tracks open at the moment and the industry definitely isn't moving in the right direction ,fact.



    So, the solution is?

    If you say handicapping, then few will argue.

    But if you then say "bring back M/C/R", well firstly, the rot set in under system that after it was white anted and eroded by vested interests, continued to fester even further under HWOE and probably won't be resurrected by NR although there are some hopeful signs....and...secondly, it ain't going to happen full stop. They will never bring it (MCR) back. It would require a mea culpa, unheard of down at Hasler Drive..It's everyone else who are idiots.

    If you say close and consolidate venues, then the proof is in the pudding, no industry growth has ever been achieved anywhere by doing that and that is no more self evident than in the various states in Australia that have done that, and in WA in particular.

    So, seriously, what does your idea of how Harness racing can be revived look like? What shape, features and form will it take? What, where and when will race night (or day) look like?

    I have certainly put my cards on the table....in the public forum....on numerous occasions. 35 pages on one occasion, 9 pages on another....complete with handicapping, programming, stakes structure, Country Cups programming, the return of heats, finals, a progression for stand races etc. I am intrigued as to what you envisage the authorities should do.

    I concur with Swampgas on code promotion (in breach of legislative charter), from the Board Room all the way down to "Racing Radio" and on the organisation having the capacity (or not) to rebuild.

    If that ability exists within the organisation, and it  consists or anything more than appeasing the status quo and throwing good money after bad on spectacularly unsuccessful one off sugar hits under the title of "Industry reinvigoration", then I think it is time they showed their hand.

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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    JayJay said:



    well we are keeping tracks open at the moment and the industry definitely isn't moving in the right direction ,fact.



    So, the solution is?

    If you say handicapping, then few will argue.

    But if you then say "bring back M/C/R", well firstly, the rot set in under system that after it was white anted and eroded by vested interests, continued to fester even further under HWOE and probably won't be resurrected by NR although there are some hopeful signs....and...secondly, it ain't going to happen full stop. They will never bring it (MCR) back. It would require a mea culpa, unheard of down at Hasler Drive..It's everyone else who are idiots.

    If you say close and consolidate venues, then the proof is in the pudding, no industry growth has ever been achieved anywhere by doing that and that is no more self evident than in the various states in Australia that have done that, and in WA in particular.

    So, seriously, what does your idea of how Harness racing can be revived look like? What shape, features and form will it take? What, where and when will race night (or day) look like?

    I have certainly put my cards on the table....in the public forum....on numerous occasions. 35 pages on one occasion, 9 pages on another....complete with handicapping, programming, stakes structure, Country Cups programming, the return of heats, finals, a progression for stand races etc. I am intrigued as to what you envisage the authorities should do.

    I concur with Swampgas on code promotion (in breach of legislative charter), from the Board Room all the way down to "Racing Radio" and on the organisation having the capacity (or not) to rebuild.

    If that ability exists within the organisation, and it  consists or anything more than appeasing the status quo and throwing good money after bad on spectacularly unsuccessful one off sugar hits under the title of "Industry reinvigoration", then I think it is time they showed their hand.

    well one state that seems to be heading in the right direction is qld and thanks to an anonymous source who reached out to me this evening with the facts to back up the model they used to downsize, consolidate and regrow there product actually has had a positive effect on the industry over there.

    The messages with facts pertaining are as follows

    QLD closed tracks throughout the nineties and 2000's consolidating to South East QLD, the most recent closure was the Gold Coast track in 2013. Was a fabulous track but resumed by state government to build 2018 Commonwealth Games Athletes Village on, replacement promised but not delivered, reducing QLD to 3 tracks, Albion Park, Marburg, and Redcliffe, racing 6 days a week most weeks plus limited number of grass gallop track meetings and "show" as in agricultural show 4 horse fields for a few hundred dollars, (part one)

    From latest Racing QLD annual report, turnover on harness growing from at least FY17, and stable from FY21 Covid lockdown highs to this current financial year, growth corresponds with changes in the admin staff running harness racing at RQ, including experienced harness administrator with sports marketing degree from Victoria. QLDs winter harness racing carnival also growing every year over same period, this year saw introduction of Protostar, $500k slot race for 2yos, next years see first of 3 years of Inter Dominions, $1m stake for pacing final, $400k for trotters.

    Wagering giant ENTAIN dropped out of buying WA TAB because they could secure the NZ TAB on lease instead, since then ENTAIN (Ladbrokes/Neds in Australia) boss Dean Shannon ( also a harness racing owner) advised HRNZ on program changes and some tracks lost meetings, and HRNZ also employed former Albion Park Chairman Brad Steele as CEO, NZ is experiencing double digit growth in turnover. The key is having the right people running the administration, WA doesn't have that, and isn't likely too, and is further disadvantaged by isolation and time zones

    Now a little bit of fact checking will show what this person has sent me are well facts, it goes to show that maybe taking 2 steps back in order to regrow the product maybe isn't a terrible idea, we have way too many tracks for the pool of horses we got and with how stale the industry is over here following the qld model of a hard reset isn't a terrible idea, now this person did send me through a graph showing turnover in all codes in qld from 2017-2024 which further shows the upturn in growth but I have zero idea how to place that in here
  • JayJayJayJay    8,085 posts
    edited December 2024
    I would agree that Queensland, courtesy of Leap To Fame, The Constellations, The Blacks A Fake etc has anecdotally assumed a higher profile the last few years.

    Fact checking shows turnover is in fact not stable as per the 2024 Annual Report which states that Queensland Product Turnover decreased 8% in FY 2023/24, and Queensland Harness Product Revenue decreased 22.6% for FY 2023/24 albeit coming off Covid induced highs.

    It is true that the fall off post Covid has been nowhere near as high as Western Australia.

    As far as NZ is concerned, the picture is a bit muddied because of a 5 year funding guarantee put in place between TAB NZ and Entain. The annual TABNZ 2024 report won't be available until April 2025. However, the 2023 report shows pre and post leasing arrangements with entain under titles like "discontinued operations" pre the 25 year lease and post the new arrangements coming into operation.

    What the report does show is that overall income from turnover etc was 2.93 billion in FY 2022 and that it fell to 2.67 billion in FY 2023. Harness Racing New Zealand tend to put out turnover reports based on carnivals or particular meetings. For example, the Methven Cup meeting referred to above experienced a growth in Turnover of nearly $200k to 1.7 million. Obtaining an overal picture of annual harness turnover comparisons is a difficult picture to obtain.

    I am also completely useless when it comes to posting graphs and trend tables and rely on painstakingly trolling through the nauseating political speak of huge annual reports prepared for Parliament. To read these glowing endorsements of the performance of Directors and Board Management bellies any sense of a betting turnover crisis anywhere in the dominion.Rose coloured glasses are in abundant supply in all but a few boardrooms.


  • JayJayJayJay    8,085 posts
    Further to the above, I still await what you propose concerning the actual product that is presented each meeting. What changes do you have in mind or do you propose you offering exactly the same product as it currently is, just at fewer tracks? Will that be the answer to where we are at as an Industry? Will punters magically return to investing on the trots simply because we now have fewer venues? Will participants rush to renew their licenses and start buying new horses on the same basis?

    The process of footprint reduction has not ever worked in the past in WA and I contend that without major changes to the product which is patently not marketable at the moment, simply continuing to do what we are doing will lead to the collapse of the Industry.
  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    edited December 2024
    JayJay said:

    Further to the above, I still await what you propose concerning the actual product that is presented each meeting. What changes do you have in mind or do you propose you offering exactly the same product as it currently is, just at fewer tracks? Will that be the answer to where we are at as an Industry? Will punters magically return to investing on the trots simply because we now have fewer venues? Will participants rush to renew their licenses and start buying new horses on the same basis?

    The process of footprint reduction has not ever worked in the past in WA and I contend that without major changes to the product which is patently not marketable at the moment, simply continuing to do what we are doing will lead to the collapse of the Industry.

    my purposal would be something similar to what they did in qld , consolidate racing in and around peel and south west region , before you go on about reducing the foot print not working, it has worked to some degree in qld and having as many tracks as we for the pool of horses we have isn't sustainable. I would push for the on course stabling set up at Pinjarra and make a huge effort in enticing new participants into the industry , by centralising the product especially for the hobby trainers with there 1 or 2 horses who live and train out of said regions your cutting out one of the ever increasing overheads in this industry and that's the cost of travel , in old terms the old R class meetings at a Bunbury or pinjarra Sunday is going to be a much more attractive proposition than lumping 1 horse to Keller for stakes of 6k

    And yes in a perfect world the sale of GP would be a no brainer prop up the industry and help regrow the industry in a smart manner , we need to get new blood with a new perspective into this industry and sometimes you have to go backwards to move forwards , I know it's probably not a popular opinion but continuing to do the same thing year in and year out at a loss isn't sustainable, and that also includes racing at the number of tracks we have with the shrinking pool of horses we have
  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts

    JayJay said:

    Further to the above, I still await what you propose concerning the actual product that is presented each meeting. What changes do you have in mind or do you propose you offering exactly the same product as it currently is, just at fewer tracks? Will that be the answer to where we are at as an Industry? Will punters magically return to investing on the trots simply because we now have fewer venues? Will participants rush to renew their licenses and start buying new horses on the same basis?

    The process of footprint reduction has not ever worked in the past in WA and I contend that without major changes to the product which is patently not marketable at the moment, simply continuing to do what we are doing will lead to the collapse of the Industry.

    my purposal would be something similar to what they did in qld , consolidate racing in and around peel and south west region , before you go on about reducing the foot print not working, it has worked to some degree in qld and having as many tracks as we for the pool of horses we have isn't sustainable. I would push for the on course stabling set up at Pinjarra and make a huge effort in enticing new participants into the industry , by centralising the product especially for the hobby trainers with there 1 or 2 horses who live and train out of said regions your cutting out one of the ever increasing overheads in this industry and that's the cost of travel , in old terms the old R class meetings at a Bunbury or pinjarra Sunday is going to be a much more attractive proposition than lumping 1 horse to Keller for stakes of 6k

    And yes in a perfect world the sale of GP would be a no brainer prop up the industry and help regrow the industry in a smart manner , we need to get new blood with a new perspective into this industry and sometimes you have to go backwards to move forwards , I know it's probably not a popular opinion but continuing to do the same thing year in and year out at a loss isn't sustainable, and that also includes racing at the number of tracks we have with the shrinking pool of horses we have

  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    Sorry wasn't meant to requote my previous comment , running on fumes here , in regards to the horse population in the peel region a popular poster on here did inform me of the stat's, something like 85% or 80% of horses trained are trained in the peel region hence why I support centralisation in this region it's not just an off the cuff statement
  • JayJayJayJay    8,085 posts
    edited December 2024
    On the Issues Paper, they lumped Perth and Peel together on the horse population figures, so it was hard to get the full picture. The figure they produced was 71.4% of horses were trained in the Peel/Perth Area which included Wanneroo, Midland/Hills area, Byford, Serpentine etc, so I dont know where the "85% or 80%" of horses are trained in the Peel Area comes from.

    On your consolidation points, I will ask the question again as to how rationalising the same product, the one that punters are not betting on, how will concentrating that failing product (in the punters eyes) boost turnover? The only thing that has given turnover a boost in recent history was COVID lockdowns and that was across all codes. History shows us that the predicted turnover boosts from track closures did not eventuate. It is the product that the punter won't bet on, it is the product that has been rejected, not where you run the races. Shifting a "Collie Type R Meeting" to Bunbury on a Sunday afternoon, a known turnover blackhole timeslot, means that instead of punters not betting on Collie, they won't be betting on Bunbury. All that will be achieved is that the Collie Club will fold, local interest will disappear and a local community will suffer.
  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    902 posts
    Seems like if it’s pointing Qld and NZ in the right direction it’s a no brainer to follow the trend and do the same here doesn’t it? Turnover is bad everywhere here but it’s much worse on the outter tracks no matter the timeslot. Simply GP and Pinjarra pay out more in stakes which blows out the figures.
    Run those low cost meetings on the proper tracks and get better figures. Makes sense in my head

    Chopchop43 likes this post.

  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    JayJay said:

    On the Issues Paper, they lumped Perth and Peel together on the horse population figures, so it was hard to get the full picture. The figure they produced was 71.4% of horses were trained in the Peel/Perth Area which included Wanneroo, Midland/Hills area, Byford, Serpentine etc, so I dont know where the "85% or 80%" of horses are trained in the Peel Area comes from.

    On your consolidation points, I will ask the question again as to how rationalising the same product, the one that punters are not betting on, how will concentrating that failing product (in the punters eyes) boost turnover? The only thing that has given turnover a boost in recent history was COVID lockdowns and that was across all codes. History shows us that the predicted turnover boosts from track closures did not eventuate. It is the product that the punter won't bet on, it is the product that has been rejected, not where you run the races. Shifting a "Collie Type R Meeting" to Bunbury on a Sunday afternoon, a known turnover blackhole timeslot, means that instead of punters not betting on Collie, they won't be betting on Bunbury. All that will be achieved is that the Collie Club will fold, local interest will disappear and a local community will suffer.

    I wasn't coming at it from a punters point of view I was coming at it from a participants point of view , and I was referring to Kellerberrin/Bunbury not Collie/Bunbury , the stat's came from someone who actually thinks before saying something so I do trust what this person says , I did notice however you didn't lump the greater Bunbury area when mentioning horse population , which was one of the areas I mentioned on top of peel region , so maybe we in fact have 2 different sets of stat's on this issue
  • JayJayJayJay    8,085 posts
    The actual figures say it is NOT pointing Queensland and NZ in the right direction.

    Queensland Product Turnover decreased 8% in FY 2023/24, and Queensland Harness Product Revenue decreased 22.6% for FY 2023/24 (Source: Annual Report 2024)

    In NZ, overall income from turnover etc was 2.93 billion in FY 2022 and then it fell to 2.67 billion in FY 2023. (Source TABNZ Report 2023).
  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    JayJay said:

    The actual figures say it is NOT pointing Queensland and NZ in the right direction.

    Queensland Product Turnover decreased 8% in FY 2023/24, and Queensland Harness Product Revenue decreased 22.6% for FY 2023/24 (Source: Annual Report 2024)

    In NZ, overall income from turnover etc was 2.93 billion in FY 2022 and then it fell to 2.67 billion in FY 2023. (Source TABNZ Report 2023).

    your posting stat's from one year tho that's not a very big sample size in the grand scheme of things, qld Product Turnover from memory is all 3 codes combined in which gallops suffered a very big downturn , harness revenue was down due to an increase in wagering with corporates and not the tab , tho Turnover was constant. Feel free to check it out for yourself but I believe the qld annual report for the profit and loss statement shows a profit of 3 million compared to a loss of 1 million the previous year

    As for the nz product I don't believe ENTAIN yet or at worst, for that long in F23 , and Brad Steele's appointment didn't commence until 1/7/24 for what it's worth, again feel free to fact check me I'm not perfect but it's just what I found from digging around a bit
  • JayJayJayJay    8,085 posts
    Well, believe what you want to believe...I am quoting source acknowledged facts from "Queensland Harness Code Report", it is not all 3 codes ....Page 23, Racing Queensland Annual Report 23/24 - Harness Code, Product Turnover -8%, Harness product revenue -23%. Figures are inclusive of QTAB, Corporate Betting Exchange, Interstate TAB's and On Course.

    It is a bit like having a discussion with Anti Vaxxers, they believe alternative facts and real facts are a conspiracy designed to discredit their views. That's fine but as I say, you believe what you want to believe. I am waving the white flag on this discussion. I surrender.

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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    edited December 2024
    Alot of the graphs and figures including the positive 7 year growth in qld are actually on Page 11 and 23 of the harness code report , there is a turnover graph in there that shows steady gain the last 4 years , with revenue down significantly the last year not only in qld but all states to what has been acknowledged as punters electing to bet with corporates rather than the tab , but none the less based on the fact that there has been a turn around within the industry over there the past 7 years with only 1 bad year would you deem there business model a success or should the admit defeat and reopen all there country tracks ??
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,966 posts
    Entain -, ladbrokes taking over N.Z. tab for 25 years, now the next step ,what they propose is to Geo-Blocking --New Zealand Punters.will not be able to have account's with any other betting agencies, Shannon,& Hamilton work well together.
    Sportsbet control the major betting on Melb. Sydney Races
    Talking to Corporate owner his company wouldn't and don't Advertise . Harness Racing & Dogs, and no real interest in Adelaide Gallops, virtually for employees hours, These a belief Ladbrokes have gone a bit deep in N.Z. time will tell only sure thing winning punters will. be starved of options
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    3,085 posts
    Some posters are very loose with the facts 

    Qld and NZ - their turnover has actually dropped quite a bit , so how can you  say their role models to copy 

    Bottom line , turnover on all codes has dropped accross the board 

    Qld , i dont mind the racing , but if i was a participant id be as bored as bat shiit , theve basically got Redcliffe ( 850m) and AP . and sometimes its Redc Tuesday , and guess what we are all back here Wed or Thurs or both 

    And its utter bulldust to say they have rationalized tracks , when they lost Gold Coast - Darel Graham said its devasting to the industry , he said at the time it would be like NSW losing Newcastle 

    The only tracks that Qld shut were way out in the Cane sticks , where Can Smoke won more races than Paleface - hah 

    If Qld turnover no good , even tho they have a big advantage in having Kevin Seymour , a harness racing tragic , owned the tote up their , tipped bundles into every jackpot under the sun , to entice betting , yet their turnover is down by 20%

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  • PictureSon1973PictureSon1973    142 posts
    Handicapping / Track Size / Management all contributing Factors but it’s time to be realists
    Selling Gloucester Park is the biggest crime to be ever proposed in regards to Harness.
    Actually the Biggest Scandal ever in Harness in WA.
    Why would you sell prime real estate which will give you 20 year benefit and then be back to
    the same situation as today being back in the Doldrums.
    We need a new form of revenue to be put back into the Industry .
    I’ll give you my I’ll informed opinion.
    1- Racing at Gloucester Park Ends
    2- considering it’s proximity to Optus & Casino Prime Hotel / Self Contained Apartments Site.
    3- offer 50 + Year leases to well established companies willing to Build & Operate such enterprises.
    4- Upgrade & Race at Byford & Pinjarra for 10 years .
    5- in the meantime look at buying & establishing new metropolitan track close to Tonkin Highway.

    THE DAYS OF RECIEVING REVENUE FROM GOVENMENT is over don’t kid yourself
    that model is dead it’s a antiquated and non viable source of funding if the industry continues
    on that path we’ll be the next Holden or Ford Australia.

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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    Markovina said:

    Some posters are very loose with the facts 


    Qld and NZ - their turnover has actually dropped quite a bit , so how can you  say their role models to copy 

    Bottom line , turnover on all codes has dropped accross the board 

    Qld , i dont mind the racing , but if i was a participant id be as bored as bat shiit , theve basically got Redcliffe ( 850m) and AP . and sometimes its Redc Tuesday , and guess what we are all back here Wed or Thurs or both 

    And its utter bulldust to say they have rationalized tracks , when they lost Gold Coast - Darel Graham said its devasting to the industry , he said at the time it would be like NSW losing Newcastle 

    The only tracks that Qld shut were way out in the Cane sticks , where Can Smoke won more races than Paleface - hah 

    If Qld turnover no good , even tho they have a big advantage in having Kevin Seymour , a harness racing tragic , owned the tote up their , tipped bundles into every jackpot under the sun , to entice betting , yet their turnover is down by 20%

    loose with facts you say ?? 7 years of sustained growth and the stat's and facts to back that up in pages 11 and 23 I believe it was of the qld harness code report , they are one of the only states that have actual shown any form of growth in recent memory but because the model they used to implement change doesn't fit in with thr ideologies and self interest of some posters on this forum its taken as non sense and not in the interest of the industry. Jayjay asked for my input for a solution and I offered it, I dont see too many other feasible solutions to help turn this industry in WA being put forward

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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts

    Handicapping / Track Size / Management all contributing Factors but it’s time to be realists
    Selling Gloucester Park is the biggest crime to be ever proposed in regards to Harness.
    Actually the Biggest Scandal ever in Harness in WA.
    Why would you sell prime real estate which will give you 20 year benefit and then be back to
    the same situation as today being back in the Doldrums.
    We need a new form of revenue to be put back into the Industry .
    I’ll give you my I’ll informed opinion.
    1- Racing at Gloucester Park Ends
    2- considering it’s proximity to Optus & Casino Prime Hotel / Self Contained Apartments Site.
    3- offer 50 + Year leases to well established companies willing to Build & Operate such enterprises.
    4- Upgrade & Race at Byford & Pinjarra for 10 years .
    5- in the meantime look at buying & establishing new metropolitan track close to Tonkin Highway.

    THE DAYS OF RECIEVING REVENUE FROM GOVENMENT is over don’t kid yourself
    that model is dead it’s a antiquated and non viable source of funding if the industry continues
    on that path we’ll be the next Holden or Ford Australia.


    I agree with most of what you've stated , the only things I would challenge would be investing in a new metropolitan track while the industry is in the doldrums, from a financial point of view I think it would make more sense to install lights and have pinjarra our metro track , the facilities are already there, it's a fairly central location. On top of that to intice new blood into the industry set up oncourse stabling there, give prospective participants an affordable way into the industry . The industry would have to be haemorrhaging money as we speak I just think from a business point of view consolidate what assets we have focus on turning the industry around and make it profitable before investing a substantial amount of money on a new track
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,966 posts

    Entain -, ladbrokes taking over N.Z. tab for 25 years, now the next step ,what they propose is to Geo-Blocking --New Zealand Punters.will not be able to have account's with any other betting agencies, Shannon,& Hamilton work well together.
    Sportsbet control the major betting on Melb. Sydney Races
    Talking to Corporate owner his company wouldn't and don't Advertise . Harness Racing & Dogs, and no real interest in Adelaide Gallops, virtually for employees hours, These a belief Ladbrokes have gone a bit deep in N.Z. time will tell only sure thing winning punters will. be starved of options


    Before the Federal Court the fine could be in the millions Shannon & Hamilton's mob like playing inside the witches hats.
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