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  • warrenrobinsonwarrenrobinson    262 posts
    i f you take time to read the WACHRA Submission 2023 the comments on this site would change, heard it all before reduce the footprint and turnover will increase the facts tell us it hasn't(exclude covid) some dumb people just don't realise how dumb they are.  
  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts

    i f you take time to read the WACHRA Submission 2023 the comments on this site would change, heard it all before reduce the footprint and turnover will increase the facts tell us it hasn't(exclude covid) some dumb people just don't realise how dumb they are.  


    I've done my research into the situation over in qld and how they turned the sport around , why would I need to read any submission by any WA body , for a man who thinks facts and stat's are relievent its kind of funny too see you turn a blind eye to what I've present before, kind of stinks of pushing one's agenda. WA Harness had been stuck in the stone ages for far too long with too many people wanting little to no change that's the biggest issue the industry has. Racing on 700m tracks is completely outdated especially when we have a meeting composed entirely of standing start races ,where half of the 8 horse fields on far too many occasions didn't step, its a terrible look for the industry. Not to mention all the spruking of the attendances of said meeting, I've been told by a very very good source that a committee member of the club who is also a member of a very prominent harness racing family in the area , stated that attendance was actually pretty disappointing, now without actually talking to this person it could be a case of Chinese whispers , but regardless if it was in fact stated than its a bit of a concern for all those saying we don't in fact need to consider the closure of some of these tracks

    Pinballwizard likes this post.

  • MorganJamesMorganJames    178 posts
    Race 3 tonight pretty much sums up why the industry is struggling to generate turnover.

    Ventura over driven in the first quarter 26.4 to soften up leader 1.70-2.25 never going to get the front .
    Then at the 600 nearly breaks his neck and calls out to his partner to Get Going on the stablemate
    which was 23.0-10.0.


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  • KTQKTQ    321 posts

    i f you take time to read the WACHRA Submission 2023 the comments on this site would change, heard it all before reduce the footprint and turnover will increase the facts tell us it hasn't(exclude covid) some dumb people just don't realise how dumb they are.  


    I've done my research into the situation over in qld and how they turned the sport around , why would I need to read any submission by any WA body , for a man who thinks facts and stat's are relievent its kind of funny too see you turn a blind eye to what I've present before, kind of stinks of pushing one's agenda. WA Harness had been stuck in the stone ages for far too long with too many people wanting little to no change that's the biggest issue the industry has. Racing on 700m tracks is completely outdated especially when we have a meeting composed entirely of standing start races ,where half of the 8 horse fields on far too many occasions didn't step, its a terrible look for the industry. Not to mention all the spruking of the attendances of said meeting, I've been told by a very very good source that a committee member of the club who is also a member of a very prominent harness racing family in the area , stated that attendance was actually pretty disappointing, now without actually talking to this person it could be a case of Chinese whispers , but regardless if it was in fact stated than its a bit of a concern for all those saying we don't in fact need to consider the closure of some of these tracks
    I am presuming you're talking about Busselton and I presume the committee member you're talking about is me and I have said no such thing about our season.

    In fact, our numbers this season are better than last season with the exception of tonight which, being the historically lower turnout 4th meet of the season and with terrible weather forecast, was 10000% expected. 
    What I HAVE said is that New Years Day brings in more families and less of the betting type due to the fact NYE is the night prior and many people are hungover so our turnover for NYD is never as high as we'd like considering the crowds we get. Boxing Day was great numbers and turnover wise- we wished the weather was hotter as numbers would have been outstanding but you can never control the weather. 

    Gotta love chinese whispers. Would love to know who told you your little mistruth but I'm sure you won't say. 

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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    KTQ said:

    i f you take time to read the WACHRA Submission 2023 the comments on this site would change, heard it all before reduce the footprint and turnover will increase the facts tell us it hasn't(exclude covid) some dumb people just don't realise how dumb they are.  


    I've done my research into the situation over in qld and how they turned the sport around , why would I need to read any submission by any WA body , for a man who thinks facts and stat's are relievent its kind of funny too see you turn a blind eye to what I've present before, kind of stinks of pushing one's agenda. WA Harness had been stuck in the stone ages for far too long with too many people wanting little to no change that's the biggest issue the industry has. Racing on 700m tracks is completely outdated especially when we have a meeting composed entirely of standing start races ,where half of the 8 horse fields on far too many occasions didn't step, its a terrible look for the industry. Not to mention all the spruking of the attendances of said meeting, I've been told by a very very good source that a committee member of the club who is also a member of a very prominent harness racing family in the area , stated that attendance was actually pretty disappointing, now without actually talking to this person it could be a case of Chinese whispers , but regardless if it was in fact stated than its a bit of a concern for all those saying we don't in fact need to consider the closure of some of these tracks
    I am presuming you're talking about Busselton and I presume the committee member you're talking about is me and I have said no such thing about our season.

    In fact, our numbers this season are better than last season with the exception of tonight which, being the historically lower turnout 4th meet of the season and with terrible weather forecast, was 10000% expected. 
    What I HAVE said is that New Years Day brings in more families and less of the betting type due to the fact NYE is the night prior and many people are hungover so our turnover for NYD is never as high as we'd like considering the crowds we get. Boxing Day was great numbers and turnover wise- we wished the weather was hotter as numbers would have been outstanding but you can never control the weather. 

    Gotta love chinese whispers. Would love to know who told you your little mistruth but I'm sure you won't say. 

    I mean I did clearly state it was something I got told and I dont know how much truth there was to it , and that if it was true its not a good thing for country racing , there's every conceivable chance that maybe things you said were taken out of context ,and your right I have no inclination of saying who told me they will just get tarred and feathered just like everyone else who aren't allowed to express opinion or fact on here.
  • KTQKTQ    321 posts

    KTQ said:

    i f you take time to read the WACHRA Submission 2023 the comments on this site would change, heard it all before reduce the footprint and turnover will increase the facts tell us it hasn't(exclude covid) some dumb people just don't realise how dumb they are.  


    I've done my research into the situation over in qld and how they turned the sport around , why would I need to read any submission by any WA body , for a man who thinks facts and stat's are relievent its kind of funny too see you turn a blind eye to what I've present before, kind of stinks of pushing one's agenda. WA Harness had been stuck in the stone ages for far too long with too many people wanting little to no change that's the biggest issue the industry has. Racing on 700m tracks is completely outdated especially when we have a meeting composed entirely of standing start races ,where half of the 8 horse fields on far too many occasions didn't step, its a terrible look for the industry. Not to mention all the spruking of the attendances of said meeting, I've been told by a very very good source that a committee member of the club who is also a member of a very prominent harness racing family in the area , stated that attendance was actually pretty disappointing, now without actually talking to this person it could be a case of Chinese whispers , but regardless if it was in fact stated than its a bit of a concern for all those saying we don't in fact need to consider the closure of some of these tracks
    I am presuming you're talking about Busselton and I presume the committee member you're talking about is me and I have said no such thing about our season.

    In fact, our numbers this season are better than last season with the exception of tonight which, being the historically lower turnout 4th meet of the season and with terrible weather forecast, was 10000% expected. 
    What I HAVE said is that New Years Day brings in more families and less of the betting type due to the fact NYE is the night prior and many people are hungover so our turnover for NYD is never as high as we'd like considering the crowds we get. Boxing Day was great numbers and turnover wise- we wished the weather was hotter as numbers would have been outstanding but you can never control the weather. 

    Gotta love chinese whispers. Would love to know who told you your little mistruth but I'm sure you won't say. 

    I mean I did clearly state it was something I got told and I dont know how much truth there was to it , and that if it was true its not a good thing for country racing , there's every conceivable chance that maybe things you said were taken out of context ,and your right I have no inclination of saying who told me they will just get tarred and feathered just like everyone else who aren't allowed to express opinion or fact on here.

    . Yes you did and I appreciate that. Our industry people like to hear what they want to hear and then spread it. But rest assured, Busselton is having a great season :)

    The issue with our industry is that it's that old saying "it shouldn't be me vs you, it should be me and you vs the problem". I have never experienced such a negative, gossip loving industry as ours and I worked in advertising for years. Everyone shitting on each other, everyone so happy to drag others down, everyone fighting for their own agenda instead of fighting as a team. I wish we'd celebrate each other more.



  • JayJayJayJay    8,085 posts
    Getting back to Harness 2025 Betting Data under NR, another 16 races into the data base bringing it up to 95 races.

    A few "shorties" last night but most were still "backable" in the "sweetspot window" as enunciated many times by RWWA, Storyteller and Spicey Major  at $2.20 and $1.90 respectively. A few others weren't such as Lavra and Maungatahi which looked absoulute standouts on paper, even Freya at $1.80 whilst the longer price trend continues. 

    Average winning price is holding above $6.00 at $6.18 to be factually precise off an increasing block of data. No unsubstantiated oriental rumours attached to this data.

    VillageKid, warrenrobinson likes this post.

  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts

    JayJay said:

    Getting back to Harness 2025 Betting Data under NR, another 16 races into the data base bringing it up to 95 races.

    A few "shorties" last night but most were still "backable" in the "sweetspot window" as enunciated many times by RWWA, Storyteller and Spicey Major  at $2.20 and $1.90 respectively. A few others weren't such as Lavra and Maungatahi which looked absoulute standouts on paper, even Freya at $1.80 whilst the longer price trend continues. 

    Average winning price is holding above $6.00 at $6.18 to be factually precise off an increasing block of data. No unsubstantiated oriental rumours attached to this data.

    nope no rumours just not even 3 weeks worth of data , I mean I'm sure all big business base decisions off such a small sample size yea ??? 100% agree KTQ unfortunately some people within the industry wants what's best for there pockets not what's best for the industry , and for anyone trying to present innovation or an idea based around solid facts and stat's that isn't in line with the agenda of a people who still think we are racing in the 70s and 80s , well those people are basically told they are dumb and have no idea , it's that sort of attitude which has gotten the industry into the predicament in the first place

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  • JayJayJayJay    8,085 posts
    Okay Einstein, I am open to suggestions as to how to present more than 3 weeks of data when it has only been in operation for 3 weeks? Jeepers, I am starting to think John Cleese was absolutely spot on.
  • warrenrobinsonwarrenrobinson    262 posts
    I find it very comical when people refer to the 70s-80s and they weren't even born :))
  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    JayJay said:

    Okay Einstein, I am open to suggestions as to how to present more than 3 weeks of data when it has only been in operation for 3 weeks? Jeepers, I am starting to think John Cleese was absolutely spot on.


    you don't present it ?? You wait for reasonable time period to pass before your present the argument, the average price per winner that your basing these stat's around is continually dropping proving what point ??

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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    edited January 18

    I find it very comical when people refer to the 70s-80s and they weren't even born :))


    what I find comical is people who base there ideas and views on what happened in those time periods , and yet here we are living in 2025 wondering why the industry is going backwards at the rate of knots , bring in the new blood with fresh ideas , before we revert back to standing starts and abolish the mobile and race around 600m goat tracks for ribbons
  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    Also I'm an 80s child seems like your facts and figures were off there
  • sonnysonny    1,302 posts
    QLD. must be going okay as a leading Harness Trainer is moving there.. Think he was born there ..
  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    sonny said:

    QLD. must be going okay as a leading Harness Trainer is moving there.. Think he was born there ..


    qld is going good and the business model they have used to turn the industry around over there can't be ignored
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    3,085 posts

    JayJay said:

    Okay Einstein, I am open to suggestions as to how to present more than 3 weeks of data when it has only been in operation for 3 weeks? Jeepers, I am starting to think John Cleese was absolutely spot on.


    you don't present it ?? You wait for reasonable time period to pass before your present the argument, the average price per winner that your basing these stat's around is continually dropping proving what point ??
    Here here , i agree with you , some people in their advanced education  did a semester unit called Statistics 

    And there is a thing called a Mean Average , you want  decent mean average , and in WA Harness Racing situation you wait 6 months , not 3-4 weeks - that is just blooody stupid and irrelevant 

    As for Busselton good luck to the club , as Chariots has told us many times , they fill a niche unique situation over the xmas holday period , so who cares for that very brief time frame that they are standing starts and its a tiny track . Personally ive got no interest in them , havent had a bet on them and dont even watch them , however if their club is well run , and doing things to a high standard then they should get credit  for that

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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    Markovina said:

    JayJay said:

    Okay Einstein, I am open to suggestions as to how to present more than 3 weeks of data when it has only been in operation for 3 weeks? Jeepers, I am starting to think John Cleese was absolutely spot on.


    you don't present it ?? You wait for reasonable time period to pass before your present the argument, the average price per winner that your basing these stat's around is continually dropping proving what point ??
    Here here , i agree with you , some people in their advanced education  did a semester unit called Statistics 

    And there is a thing called a Mean Average , you want  decent mean average , and in WA Harness Racing situation you wait 6 months , not 3-4 weeks - that is just blooody stupid and irrelevant 

    As for Busselton good luck to the club , as Chariots has told us many times , they fill a niche unique situation over the xmas holday period , so who cares for that very brief time frame that they are standing starts and its a tiny track . Personally ive got no interest in them , havent had a bet on them and dont even watch them , however if their club is well run , and doing things to a high standard then they should get credit  for that

    I have no gripe with Busselton or country racing to that point I have fond memories as a kid helping my grandad who was the vice president of the Northam trots in the early 90s , stack the fridges etc before a meeting and watching nearly every meeting I possibly could, not to mention all the road trips to York, trayning, cunderdin etc, I grew up on country racing it was what helped create this passion I have to this day for the code. That being said I think now is the time to take the rose tinted glasses off and make some tough decisions in order to help the code survive and even turn the corner, the qld situation should give a good guide on what to do imo
  • JayJayJayJay    8,085 posts
    edited January 18
    Mean Average??? I am not quite sure what you mean by Mean Average. Mean and average are arithmetically the same thing. Total up your data and divide by the number of data points. Median figure, on the other hand,  is the other often referred to figure. For this data set, the median figure which is the mid point is $3.20, with 50 % of the results above $3.20 and 50% of the results below $3.20. This is why data on for example, average wages versus median wages is vastly different and so it is here. Interestingly, on the 95 races run so far, both the average and the mdian are above the $1.90 to $2.20 "sweetspot" but I won't go any further there lest the local Mensa Society start their almost predictable pie throwing and click baitingf about narratives, living in the past or presenting data out of context.

    Initially, the average result was an incredibly high and almost certainly unsustainable $7.20 after the first 5 meetings due to some very large outriders and it had to fall as more data was included, and will probably fall further as $6.18 seems remarkably high. It is far from "nonsense and bloody stupid" to be not continually monitoring you data as the data set grows, especially with the flexible and reactive programming now in operation and with a flexible and variable racing population. The horses currently racing may well be spelling in 3 or 6 months time. In fact, I would think it absolutely essential to be closely monitoring the weekly data, not for any kneejerk response to occur but to have a really good handle on things. Woolies, Bunnings and Coles will be monitoring their sales, customer trafffic and lines that do or don't move off the shelves on a daily basis, but that is apparently verboten when applied to harness racing data. Jeepers, there are some dog whistlers out there that live in an alternative reality but that's life isn't it. Each to his own as Mr Cleese would say.

    Interesting that some have no gripe with Busselton, other than wanting to shut it down. Running with hares and hunting with the hounds.
  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    JayJay said:

    Mean Average??? I am not quite sure what you mean by Mean Average. Mean and average are arithmetically the same thing. Total up your data and divide by the number of data points. Median figure, on the other hand,  is the other often referred to figure. For this data set, the median figure which is the mid point is $3.20, with 50 % of the results above $3.20 and 50% of the results below $3.20. This is why data on for example, average wages versus median wages is vastly different and so it is here. Interestingly, on the 95 races run so far, both the average and the mdian are above the $1.90 to $2.20 "sweetspot" but I won't go any further there lest the local Mensa Society start their almost predictable pie throwing and click baitingf about narratives, living in the past or presenting data out of context.

    Initially, the average result was an incredibly high and almost certainly unsustainable $7.20 after the first 5 meetings due to some very large outriders and it had to fall as more data was included, and will probably fall further as $6.18 seems remarkably high. It is far from "nonsense and bloody stupid" to be not continually monitoring you data as the data set grows, especially with the flexible and reactive programming now in operation and with a flexible and variable racing population. The horses currently racing may well be spelling in 3 or 6 months time. In fact, I would think it absolutely essential to be closely monitoring the weekly data, not for any kneejerk response to occur but to have a really good handle on things. Woolies, Bunnings and Coles will be monitoring their sales, customer trafffic and lines that do or don't move off the shelves on a daily basis, but that is apparently verboten when applied to harness racing data. Jeepers, there are some dog whistlers out there that live in an alternative reality but that's life isn't it. Each to his own as Mr Cleese would say.

    Interesting that some have no gripe with Busselton, other than wanting to shut it down. Running with hares and hunting with the hounds.

    you can keep everyone in the loop week to week about the average price of winners as much as you want but doing it this early on is absolutely pointless your not proving anything , your correct about coles, woolies monitoring there sales that's an absolute given but do you think that they public release information weekly ?? They've probably also been running the same business model for a sustained period of time aswell unlike us. I also love the fact that when your on the backfoot with any discussion on this forum rather than be happy to agree to disagree like most you decide to try and get personal I'd like to think that we are all adults here hey ??

    I've not once said that I want to see Busselton shut down, but do it and similar tracks need to be shut down to keep the industry kicking long term basically following the same model as qld which has proven rationalisation has worked ??? Possibly , and before you sit there and attempt to belittle the people that don't buy into your agenda , this isn't a great scenario for anyone that loves harness racing, we are in this situation because the industry and the people running it have failed to evolve it , would you rather the industry turn around in the long run or would you rather we just race for ribbons at Wagin??? Your spreadsheets wouldn't be looking too crash hot if that was the case
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    3,085 posts
    Qld Trots seem to be getting a big mention in this thread

    Looking at Albion Park race 5 tonight , id love someone to bring  some of that that beautiful cooling rain accross to Perth with them  as we brace ourselves for basically 6 days of 40 in a row 

    Next week is just going to be oh  so ordinary 

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  • savethegamesavethegame    2,966 posts
    What turned Queensland harness around when they charged  three of top six drivers,approx. 2017, when Bart Cockburn got life, and said everyone's doing it. they were ducking & diving. Same time frame Dixons wife got 12 months. ___ . Integrity. was back in.& confidence restored for participants& punters

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  • FrogFrog    115 posts
    edited January 18

    Race 3 tonight pretty much sums up why the industry is struggling to generate turnover.


    Ventura over driven in the first quarter 26.4 to soften up leader 1.70-2.25 never going to get the front .
    Then at the 600 nearly breaks his neck and calls out to his partner to Get Going on the stablemate
    which was 23.0-10.0.


    Right under the stewards noses at the tower, same as Diego. Nothing to see here as there is no betting steward checking anything. (next race) Its worth looking into Morgan ?
  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts

    What turned Queensland harness around when they charged  three of top six drivers,approx. 2017, when Bart Cockburn got life, and said everyone's doing it. they were ducking & diving. Same time frame Dixons wife got 12 months. ___ . Integrity. was back in.& confidence restored for participants& punters


    might of helped people regain trust in the powers that be over there but stat's and figures show the change of business model has had a direct positive impact on turnover which is probably the best metric to measure success in this industry
  • sonnysonny    1,302 posts
    Hi Marko, Very good tongue in cheek.. Thats how I read it ...
  • JayJayJayJay    8,085 posts
    13 race meetings now run, 102 races, average winning starting price still holding way above the direct comparison fro 2024 at $6.11.

    18 of the 102 races won by concession/junior drivers, opportunities escalating, 4 of the 9 runners in the featured $20,000 Albany Cup, including the winner, utilised concession claims.

    Only 22 winners under $2.00 and just 4 under $1.20 with 20 winners at $10 or better.

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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    JayJay said:

    13 race meetings now run, 102 races, average winning starting price still holding way above the direct comparison fro 2024 at $6.11.

    18 of the 102 races won by concession/junior drivers, opportunities escalating, 4 of the 9 runners in the featured $20,000 Albany Cup, including the winner, utilised concession claims.

    Only 22 winners under $2.00 and just 4 under $1.20 with 20 winners at $10 or better.

    just out of curiosity wouldn't a better indication of whether or not the nr system is working turnover wise (all be it in such a small sample size) be the average price of each favourite, rather than average price each winner, I mean all good to have an ever shortening $6.11 average winners, but I feel from a punting point of view more people will invest there hard earned on races where there isn't a favourite in the red , hard to make the comparison with the gallops but I feel the reason people invest more frequently into them is the fact your not seeing as many $1.90 or less pops , I guess we'll only know once they have released turnover figures whether or not nr is really making a difference but yes great to see the jnrs get a fair crack
  • jumjum    3,554 posts
    KTQ said:

    KTQ said:

    . Yes you did and I appreciate that. Our industry people like to hear what they want to hear and then spread it. But rest assured, Busselton is having a great season :)

    The issue with our industry is that it's that old saying "it shouldn't be me vs you, it should be me and you vs the problem". I have never experienced such a negative, gossip loving industry as ours and I worked in advertising for years. Everyone shitting on each other, everyone so happy to drag others down, everyone fighting for their own agenda instead of fighting as a team. I wish we'd celebrate each other more.



    Posted on Jan 17th and this should be post of the year done and dusted for 2025 on PTT
  • jumjum    3,554 posts
    edited January 20

    JayJay said:

    Okay Einstein, I am open to suggestions as to how to present more than 3 weeks of data when it has only been in operation for 3 weeks? Jeepers, I am starting to think John Cleese was absolutely spot on.


    you don't present it ?? You wait for reasonable time period to pass before your present the argument, the average price per winner that your basing these stat's around is continually dropping proving what point ??
    Proving that punters (which you need to survive) are becoming more adept with the handicapping changes. And are punting accordingly. As I have stated on here before, I stopped punting on the trots regularly 10 years ago at least. Not a fan of backing $1.10 pops all night and it wasn't worth doing the research to look for a winner every now and then at value.
    These prices have now piqued my interest.
  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    305 posts
    jum said:

    JayJay said:

    Okay Einstein, I am open to suggestions as to how to present more than 3 weeks of data when it has only been in operation for 3 weeks? Jeepers, I am starting to think John Cleese was absolutely spot on.


    you don't present it ?? You wait for reasonable time period to pass before your present the argument, the average price per winner that your basing these stat's around is continually dropping proving what point ??
    Proving that punters (which you need to survive) are becoming more adept with the handicapping changes. And are punting accordingly. As I have stated on here before, I stopped punting on the trots regularly 10 years ago at least. Not a fan of backing $1.10 pops all night and it wasn't worth doing the research to look for a winner every now and then at value.
    These prices have now piqued my interest.

    I mean last night's results kind of look very very familiar to what we are used to
  • JayJayJayJay    8,085 posts
    Getting Inbox and private emails telling me I am doing it all wrong, I should be doing this, I should be quoting the average starting price of the favourite, I should be eliminating outriders both short and long priced, I should be showing a graph with Standard deviation, the data sample is too small, should be doing it track by track, class by class, should be comparing PBD with RBD, should be quoting last years figures etc etc etc. So taking all that gratuitous advice on board, I'll leave it to the experts. 

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