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  • TucoolTucool    156 posts

    I've lost 10 grand in the last seven months and now looking for job to settle their debts.

    I can't believe i'm in this positon,I got a million plus dollar property and can't make a living anymore.I blame RWWA for this situation, they have taken a profession and deregulated it to a hobby.

  • MSFMSF    14 posts
    Owners should be made to have a licence, template agreement made available to trainers they outline there fee's (so trainers just fill in the blanks as per lease agreement available) plus average vet and farrier etc. Payment terms agreed upon signed by both parties. At least its in writing????
  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,660 posts
    I can talk to my partner and see if setting up a legal document would assist. But I would encourage all Trainers to only take a horse with a deposit covering three months of anticipated costs up front and those monies held in trust, to be used in the case of default.

    Trainers should also have a default process in place by prior consensual agreement, that if in default 30 days, services will be withdrawn, and if the account goes in arrears more than 60 days, the horse can be sold and funds withheld to the amount of the outstanding's with the balance going to the Owner. The Owner should then be listed as a defaulter as to warn others of problems that could be encountered if they consent to taking horses from that person.

    JayJay, Tucool, cinnabelle likes this post.

  • paraleticparaletic    3,750 posts
    any way a debt collection service can be used to chase up the debt?
  • TheDivaTheDiva    13,246 posts
    I had an email this week from a company who specialise in getting money from slow paying owners.

  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    10,235 posts
    I just don't understand this. If you own a race horse and you get a bill, why wouldn't you pay it?

    RIO, loco likes this post.

  • MSFMSF    14 posts
    Dept collection can be costly majority of depts are to 1 single owner and can vary between $1000 to $5000 and alot of the time the 1 owner is only a 10-20% share holder problem is trainers have 2-10 of these people and there screwed!!!! Thats why a licence would weed these bad payers out if your in with 5 people and 1 won't pay up then the pressure is on them to 
    a) sell out, 
    b) sign over there share to other partners
    because your fellow partners will not be happy if they can't race there horse because of you not paying.

    Owner should then have a black mark against their name 3 strikes and your Banned???

    I understand alot of people just walk away and the trainer is left with the horse but these people need to be identified so as not to happen to the next trainer????

    Tucool, Chelsea likes this post.

  • raconteurraconteur    610 posts

    racing industry related payments and indebtedness is not confined to owners...it is widespread in this industry - there is no simple answer that will achive eutopia:

    but really are you serious when you say :

    -  Wyer 's  suggestion of :


    • 3 months upfront is  about a silly as it gets - who would pay that ???

    • 30 days = 'withdraw services' - so they stop feeding the horse ?

    • 60 days = " sell the horse " - that is not legal in WA for animal attending fees

    • "defaulters" is reserved for those who default on payments with RWWA , Clubs and renege on betting ( ie betting defaulter) - it is not used in relation to payment between other parties.
      The there is MSF's :

     " average vet and farrier bills "  -  sort of a Medicare levy - - wow that is a good one - is there such a thing as an "average vet bill"?

    and basically an owner is "licensed" when they sign a registration or lease , they are bound by the rules.

     

     

  • bookieloverbookielover    2,623 posts
    edited July 2013
    I really feel for the trainers. We had 4 horses with a trainer and I'm happy to say always paid our bills. However, he never stopped complaining about those who did not. It finally sent him to the wall. And this bloke trained group 1 winners including a VRC Oaks winner.

    The respective racing authorities need to take matters into their hands to ensure that trainers are paid and one way as far as I am concerned is to deduct the trainers % and his bill from any prize money that the horse wins, BEFORE the owner gets his cheque. 

    Of course that doesn't help the trainers of horses that don't win any prize money, but at least it's a start.

    If owners of non- winners don't pay, then the racing authorities should approach their Governments and ask them to legislate that any owner who is more than 30 days in arrears his horse will not be allowed to start in a race until all fees are paid.

    If he is 60 days in arrears, the horse will be removed by the authorities from the stable and placed in an agistment paddock. The racing authorities would pay the agistment fees. The legislation would then allow the racing authorities to sue the owners on behalf of the trainer for all the fees that are owed to the trainer and all agistment fees.

    If the owners are broke or file for bankruptcy, the horse or horses would be auctioned off and the proceeds sent to the trainer. This may not be enough to recover his costs, but at least the trainer would get something out of the wreck. If there is no sale, then the horse would either be given away if someone wants it, or unfortunately sent to the knackery.

    All this can be done, if Racing Victoria or Racing New South Wales and RWWA were fair dinkum about their concern for the welfare and financial viability of trainers.

    It's about time they were.
  • paraleticparaletic    3,750 posts

    i heard Hong Kong had a good system??

  • MSFMSF    14 posts
    Average vet medication was what i meant Racoteur, but at the end of the day costs around 3k a month in full work for a racehorse which ever way people word it and bills need to be paid monthly....... in saying  that book keeping is a big problem for alot of people too, they just don't do it.

    When an owner signs the register form they own the horse i can't find where it says pay bills on time thats not a licence to me but i could be wrong?? 
  • RexRex    397 posts

    This has always been a problem and the authorities should get involved to protect the industry in my opinion.

    I know of one trainer who stipulates to the owner when he take on a horse that if the account is more than 30 days overdue the horse will not trial or race until the account is settled and I feel that is fair on both parties.

    everready likes this post.

  • Thoroly_BreadThoroly_Bread    2,311 posts
    It's not fair if there is more then one owner and there is just one not payer...
  • SPUDLEYSPUDLEY    1,584 posts
    What about leases as well I have leased horses in good faith only sometimes having to wait upto 6 mths to be paid by the horse trainer leasing my horses for my share of the stakemoney and most stakemoney is banked about 21 days from the day of the race so it does go bothways.

    MSF, RIO likes this post.

  • RexRex    397 posts

    It's not fair if there is more then one owner and there is just one not payer...

    You are right but what normally happens is that a manager is agreed on by all owners and the other owners pay him so as the trainer sends out one account to the manager and it is his job to get the money from the other owners of the horse.The trainer shouldn't have to send an account to say 10 people for each horse that has multiple owners. Then if someone doesn't pay it is the rest of the owners to sort out and I certainly would not have a horse with people that don't pay their share.It is an ongoing problem that needs sorting out for the good of the industry and if an owner can't pay his account he shouldn't be allowed to have a horse and be black listed by the authorities. I could be wrong but I strongly believe that if you can't afford it don't have it.

    MSF likes this post.

  • motivatedmotivated    334 posts

    I really feel for the trainers. We had 4 horses with a trainer and I'm happy to say always paid our bills. However, he never stopped complaining about those who did not. It finally sent him to the wall. And this bloke trained group 1 winners including a VRC Oaks winner.


    The respective racing authorities need to take matters into their hands to ensure that trainers are paid and one way as far as I am concerned is to deduct the trainers % and his bill from any prize money that the horse wins, BEFORE the owner gets his cheque. 

    Of course that doesn't help the trainers of horses that don't win any prize money, but at least it's a start.

    If owners of non- winners don't pay, then the racing authorities should approach their Governments and ask them to legislate that any owner who is more than 30 days in arrears his horse will not be allowed to start in a race until all fees are paid.

    If he is 60 days in arrears, the horse will be removed by the authorities from the stable and placed in an agistment paddock. The racing authorities would pay the agistment fees. The legislation would then allow the racing authorities to sue the owners on behalf of the trainer for all the fees that are owed to the trainer and all agistment fees.

    If the owners are broke or file for bankruptcy, the horse or horses would be auctioned off and the proceeds sent to the trainer. This may not be enough to recover his costs, but at least the owner would get something out of the wreck. If there is no sale, then the horse would either be given away if someone wants it, or unfortunately sent to the knackery.

    All this can be done, if Racing Victoria or Racing New South Wales and RWWA were fair dinkum about their concern for the welfare and financial viability of trainers.

    It's about time they were.
    Can you name the trainer? Sounds like John McArdle?

    Can we start to name and shame non payers on here? Tipping not but would be interesting...
  • Thoroly_BreadThoroly_Bread    2,311 posts
    Rex said:

    It's not fair if there is more then one owner and there is just one not payer...

    You are right but what normally happens is that a manager is agreed on by all owners and the other owners pay him so as the trainer sends out one account to the manager and it is his job to get the money from the other owners of the horse.The trainer shouldn't have to send an account to say 10 people for each horse that has multiple owners. Then if someone doesn't pay it is the rest of the owners to sort out and I certainly would not have a horse with people that don't pay their share.It is an ongoing problem that needs sorting out for the good of the industry and if an owner can't pay his account he shouldn't be allowed to have a horse and be black listed by the authorities. I could be wrong but I strongly believe that if you can't afford it don't have it.
    Rex I'm not saying that that does not happen but i own multiple horses with different people some i have never met and 3 different trainers and i have never herd of that where everyone pays the managing owner and he/she gets the bill and pays it, if I was a managing owner there is no way i would have any part of that.

    If other owners don't pay there bills that got nothing to do with me i pay mine i expect my horse to be given full care and every opportunity.
  • Thoroly_BreadThoroly_Bread    2,311 posts
    Don't get me wrong i feel for trainers and trust me i have seen first hand what it is like, just saying others should not suffer because someone wont pay there bill and first and foremost the horse should not suffer, should be governed by a higher authority.  

    motivated likes this post.

  • raconteurraconteur    610 posts
    paraletic said:


    "i  heard Hong Kong had a good system?? "

    the  HK model could not work in WA - they have < 2 dozen  trainers who can only  train on 2 Club tracks - all prospective owners go in a ballot to be allowed the privelge of owning.

    Might work at Broome - there are 21 trainers there today - and they only train  there and  Derby.

     

  • MSFMSF    14 posts
    Licensed jocks, trainers, track riders etc have to
    Pay for their licence or can not participate why not owners?

    Tucool likes this post.

  • RIORIO    14,882 posts
    SPUDLEY said:

    What about leases as well I have leased horses in good faith only sometimes having to wait upto 6 mths to be paid by the horse trainer leasing my horses for my share of the stakemoney and most stakemoney is banked about 21 days from the day of the race so it does go bothways.

    and this is one industry i would hate to be supplying feed too.....some payment days are well beyond 90 days.. A bit of what goes around comes around.

    Basically if you manage your business properly you stop the rot a long time before it gets to this point..If you manage your business poorly, then you suffer these sort of consequences..

    MSF, Chelsea, Legless, CPL likes this post.

  • bookieloverbookielover    2,623 posts
    Hi Motivated
    Firstly I have corrected paragraph 6 of my post. Originally it read "at least the owner would get something out of the wreck", it should have read trainer not owner.

    Now to your question.
    It is not John Mcardle, who I think is still training in  some capacity.

    I don't think that it is fair to the trainer to put his name up here. He was a very good trainer and when he went under, got a job with Lloyd Williams as an assistant. That didn't last very long, and as far as I know, because I have lost contact with him, he is out of the game. Very sad what happened to him. His wife would look after the accounts and send out the invoices in a timely manner but owners just didn't pay. 

    Some of it was his own fault because he was far too soft on the owners, so in one way you could say he was his own worst enemy.

    But when you read that Moody is owed stacks, then as far as I am concerned, the relevant racing authorities in each state need to take control of what is a deteriorating situation.
  • ChrisChris    5,219 posts
    Agree bl, best to avoid names. Cheers.
  • rickrick    487 posts
    my trainer always says if they don't pay in a timely manner then it doesn't matter if the horse is phar lap its out the door , you only get yourself in deeper crap carrying these people thinking they will come good as bad payers never change   

    TheFunkster likes this post.

  • Thoroly_BreadThoroly_Bread    2,311 posts
    Rick what if you and I are 50/50 in a horse... A good horse and I decide I'm not going to pay my bill and you are up to date with your bills and the trainer decides to put it on the street is that fair?
  • rickrick    487 posts

    maybe not but they are running a business and as stated in the above some of these guys are going broke that's not fair either

     

  • thefalconthefalcon    19,949 posts

    i think a "good" horse is an entirely different kettle of fish, he would be paying for himself.

    what we are talking about is the poor to mediocre horse. we all know what its like to fork out every month for no return, BUT, that was the risk we took. now we have to honour that risk, deliberate non-payment can affect many people, the trainers, the feed merchants, vets, farriers, transport etc etc

    it is very selfish to keep the trainer swinging in the breeze...personally, i'd name and shame after giving them ample warning.

    Chelsea, MSF likes this post.

  • rickrick    487 posts

    i think a "good" horse is an entirely different kettle of fish, he would be paying for himself.

    what we are talking about is the poor to mediocre horse. we all know what its like to fork out every month for no return, BUT, that was the risk we took. now we have to honour that risk, deliberate non-payment can affect many people, the trainers, the feed merchants, vets, farriers, transport etc etc

    it is very selfish to keep the trainer swinging in the breeze...personally, i'd name and shame after giving them ample warning.


    quite right falcon but you still need to get the money out of the owners even if the horse is a good one , getting up at 3am to train a clients horse and not get paid is a bit of b/s
  • TheDivaTheDiva    13,246 posts
    I've never known a bad payer on a really fast horse!

    FreoHitman, CPL, everready likes this post.

  • LuckyLongshotsLuckyLongshots    4,270 posts
    edited July 2013

    Rick what if you and I are 50/50 in a horse... A good horse and I decide I'm not going to pay my bill and you are up to date with your bills and the trainer decides to put it on the street is that fair?

    Then it's up to you to encourage (in a totally legal physical manner) the other owner to pay up.

    In saying that, there are bad people on both sides of the equation (owners and trainers) - some horse trainers aren't exactly flash when it comes to accounts - so I can understand why disagreements over costs sometimes raise there ugly head!

    However if you have 3 or more owners, you really should have a manager for the accounts - trainer should only have to deal with one representative when it comes to payments.

    MSF, H-BOMBER, FreoHitman likes this post.

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