Comments worth a post but not a thread of their own

MorganJames · April 16

LB Harper should retire and just be there to support his two sons ..

He has had his time in the game..

Offthebit · April 16

MorganJames said:
LB Harper should retire and just be there to support his two sons ..
He has had his time in the game..

He is roughly the same age as the great man Chris Lewis. Should chris retire and support his son mark and deb in there training careers?

Why shouldn’t Lindsay be able to pursue his driving career again?

Had his time in the game???
He had 15 years taken away from his time.....

Kane_26 · April 16

He is roughly the same age as the great man Chris Lewis. Should chris retire and support his son mark and deb in there training careers?

Why shouldn’t Lindsay be able to pursue his driving career again?

Have you seen his drives since he's been back? Seriously OTB you can't pick on Curly Warwick and defend LBH, it's apples and oranges.

Offthebit · April 16

Not defending lbh since his comeback at all. He has been driving Morris minors and he has been out for 15 years so give the guy a break. It will obviously take some time to find the groove again after so long out. He may never be the same again but geez it’s a bit rough to tell a former champion to just sit in the grandstand and watch his sons

Chariotsonfire · April 16

Not sure Mark has jumped off. May be required by the yellow and green connections.

Chariotsonfire · April 16

By the way JayJay I have had a smallish investment at Courage Tells at the $4.50.

Offthebit · April 16

Yep chariots I knew he had to stick with dads nice horse. Maybe I worded it wrong

JayJay · April 16

Mark is hardly "jumping off" when he is driving his Dad's horse The Art Form.

That first winner tonight Jaspervella Beach was a bargain $12,000 buy at last years Melbourne sale, barely covers Somebeachsomewhere's service fee.

MorganJames · April 16

Correct he is a former champion and he needs to be remembered that way.He would win on morris minors as well.

He is just struggling in this new era .

The days of 38 lead times and 63 halfs and 30 down the back and home in 28 are gone and that was his speciality .

Yes sit in the grandstand and mentor his 2 sons and enjoy their careers .

Offthebit · April 16

I’ve seen jnr “jump off” plenty of snr’s horses to drive for outside stables before.
Not saying mark shouldn’t have jumped off but merely stating he would have had the choice of drives

Offthebit · April 16

Geez it’s tough going having an opinion in this forum tonight

JayJay · April 16

Apologies OTB, when I was posting my reply, others were also doing the same. I wouldn't have mentioned it if I had seen the others posts on "jumping off", which you can't do whilst typing (very slowly) a response. You see the other responses after you press the "post comment" box.

Offthebit · April 16

MorganJames said:
Correct he is a former champion and he needs to be remembered that way.He would win on morris minors as well.
He is just struggling in this new era .
The days of 38 lead times and 63 halfs and 30 down the back and home in 28 are gone and that was his speciality .
Yes sit in the grandstand and mentor his 2 sons and enjoy their careers .

All good Morgan we are all entitled to our opinion. I dare you to ring Lindsay and tell him to give up his career purely because he has two sons driving in the same sport......

Zimmerman · April 16

Zimmerman said:
Magdnalina Haylz very unlucky last start not to win! Bit stronger tonight in race 5 but worth a ew ticket with place bias.

Not suited but didn’t give much! Won’t get me again

MorganJames · April 16

Have you got his Number...

He must surely realize that Kyle is definitely a better driver at the present time and to a lesser extent Donald and he is taking those oppurtunites away from them as you can see in Friday Nites fields he is driving Ace Bromac and Therugo

Ridersonthestorm33 · April 16

Gosh didn't see the race, but have seen just now Vincenzo rolled @$1.10!!

Wonder what this replay is gunna tell.
Backing odds on faves all the time - good luck!!

Rocket_Reign · April 16

Offthebit said:
Not defending lbh since his comeback at all. He has been driving Morris minors and he has been out for 15 years so give the guy a break. It will obviously take some time to find the groove again after so long out. He may never be the same again but geez it’s a bit rough to tell a former champion to just sit in the grandstand and watch his sons

Those Morris minors go 5 lengths better when Kyle drives them

Offthebit · April 16

For what it’s worth I love Kyle as a driver. But that doesn’t mean Lindsay shouldn’t attempt to make a comeback.
On that theory maybe bailey McDonough should give it away as well because he clearly isn’t as good as Mark reed

Markovina · April 16

MorganJames said:
Correct he is a former champion and he needs to be remembered that way.He would win on morris minors as well.
He is just struggling in this new era .
The days of 38 lead times and 63 halfs and 30 down the back and home in 28 are gone and that was his speciality .
Yes sit in the grandstand and mentor his 2 sons and enjoy their careers .

"He is just struggling in this new era " what is this blooody new era you speak of ? - then you contradict yourself " The days of 63 halfs and 58 home ( well 56 and 57 ) is Bunbury every bloody Saturday night - thats why i hate it

Gavin Lang is in his early 60s - and he is still as good as anyone - still a champion driver

Rocket_Reign · April 16

Offthebit said:
For what it’s worth I love Kyle as a driver. But that doesn’t mean Lindsay shouldn’t attempt to make a comeback.
On that theory maybe bailey McDonough should give it away as well because he clearly isn’t as good as Mark reed

Yeah and Baileys drive was nothing short of disgraceful but he’s learning

Ridersonthestorm33 · April 16

Vincenzo never looked totally comfortable from the moment Lagoon Stride crossed him, still managed a better than reasonable run ( for a $1.10 chance ) not helped at the bell lap, but that was only momentarily. He's a grinder alright.

Can't take anything away from the winner, that was impressive from the breeze @25/1.

The Midas Touch leading and Vincenzo breeze would've been interesting but you'd have to lean to The Midas Touch still winning, even with the other guy applying the pressure.

Charoits will be making a comeback to bookmaking soon with some of these $1.10 - $1.20 pops going around - that are beatable.

Markovina · April 16

Ridersonthestorm33 said:
Vincenzo never looked totally comfortable from the moment Lagoon Stride crossed him, still managed a better than reasonable run ( for a $1.10 chance ) not helped at the bell lap, but that was only momentarily. He's a grinder alright.

Can't take anything away from the winner, that was impressive from the breeze @25/1.

The Midas Touch leading and Vincenzo breeze would've been interesting but you'd have to lean to The Midas Touch still winning, even with the other guy applying the pressure.

Charoits will be making a comeback to bookmaking soon with some of these $1.10 - $1.20 pops going around - that are beatable.

Chariots wont be making a comeback at Ballarat

Tonights meeting 7 race card - the winners $1.20 $1.20 $1.40 $1.20 $1.50 $5.40 ( fave $3) and $1.10

Glen · April 16

Some may even question why LBH got his brief back, I myself think he is pretty lucky to be involved in this great game

Offthebit · April 16

Markovina said:

Ridersonthestorm33 said:
Vincenzo never looked totally comfortable from the moment Lagoon Stride crossed him, still managed a better than reasonable run ( for a $1.10 chance ) not helped at the bell lap, but that was only momentarily. He's a grinder alright.

Can't take anything away from the winner, that was impressive from the breeze @25/1.

The Midas Touch leading and Vincenzo breeze would've been interesting but you'd have to lean to The Midas Touch still winning, even with the other guy applying the pressure.

Charoits will be making a comeback to bookmaking soon with some of these $1.10 - $1.20 pops going around - that are beatable.
Chariots wont be making a comeback at Ballarat

Tonights meeting 7 race card - the winners $1.20 $1.20 $1.40 $1.20 $1.50 $5.40 ( fave $3) and $1.10

The irony is ana malik left WA because of the new handicapping system. He walked straight into a C3 Monday country meet in Victoria and walked in as a $1.10 fave.
That’s a disgrace. I don’t profess to be up to date with what we are doing here with the handicapping but surely that is vindication for what we are trying to eradicate?

Ridersonthestorm33 · April 16

Victoria and WA seem to have the most odds on favourites, especially those pesky $1.04 to $1.30 ones.

Tonight at Ballarat, get quite a few of them in Victoria especially at Cranbourne and Shepparton as well.

The odds on pops have their great nights and so they should! Overall a disastrous bet type to succeed on imo.

Chariotsonfire · April 17

JayJay said:
Vincenzo and Courage Tells handicap specials making use of the system.

In Courage Tells case Life Time Earnings mean little in the twilight of a career especially when forced to breeze. Losing sequence 13 and placed once in last six starts gives an indication where the horse is at.

curmudgeon · April 17

Twilight Zone recalculation.

Total earnings of the rest of the field combined in the last 2 seasons approx $140 K with a span from $12.5 K to $43 K

Total earnings Courage Tells last 2 seasons approx $96 K

It all depends on how you want to view the rationale doesn't it ?

JayJay · April 17

Correct.......and the bookies were right with President Mach. But Courage Tells previous start was 3rd to I'm Soxy and Mighty Flying Deal, both of whom would have been potentially winners of last nights race and at short odds. And breezing definitely didn't assist his cause.

However, w hat we are seeing is the old drop back rule, albeit in another form. Is that a good or bad thing? Did we need to re invent the wheel? There was universal dislike of parts of the old system, say where a Derby winner rocked up as a resuming 4 yo in a C0 at wherever and belted up genuine maidens; so why no fix that issue, there were strong opinions that the previous drop back rule was too generous, so why not fix the issue....but for better or worse, we threw out the existing system and we adopted this new convoluted HWOE model, which was terribly difficult to implement (for example, finding the "sweet spot" for transitioning horses over without providing free kicks or harsh treatment, an almost impossible task).

And as changes are made to conditions, who can start and who can't, what concessions are available etc etc, there are genuine grounds to ask what has this major change achieved? I think that at the bottom end, genuine maiden horses have copped a left hook as those less than HWOE $3,000 races fall over forcing the less able to race right out of their class, the $100k win earnings races just don't hold up at the top end, is that a fault with the band allocations? ....and I believe the punters in TAB land have still not got a clue what all the jargon means. It seems that the system has undergone changes as time goes by, many of them were changes that were initially identified as problems by various industry groups and individuals and it has gotten better and more flexible, no doubt about it, but I think it is a very genuine question to ask, without throwing pies at anyone, as to what has really been achieved, at what expense and has it been worthwhile? Time will tell, time will tell.

Markovina · April 17

JayJay said:
Correct.......and the bookies were right with President Mach. But Courage Tells previous start was 3rd to I'm Soxy and Mighty Flying Deal, both of whom would have been potentially winners of last nights race and at short odds. And breezing definitely didn't assist his cause.

However, w hat we are seeing is the old drop back rule, albeit in another form. Is that a good or bad thing? Did we need to re invent the wheel? There was universal dislike of parts of the old system, say where a Derby winner rocked up as a resuming 4 yo in a C0 at wherever and belted up genuine maidens; so why no fix that issue, there were strong opinions that the previous drop back rule was too generous, so why not fix the issue....but for better or worse, we threw out the existing system and we adopted this new convoluted HWOE model, which was terribly difficult to implement (for example, finding the "sweet spot" for transitioning horses over without providing free kicks or harsh treatment, an almost impossible task).

And as changes are made to conditions, who can start and who can't, what concessions are available etc etc, there are genuine grounds to ask what has this major change achieved? I think that at the bottom end, genuine maiden horses have copped a left hook as those less than HWOE $3,000 races fall over forcing the less able to race right out of their class, the $100k win earnings races just don't hold up at the top end, is that a fault with the band allocations? ....and I believe the punters in TAB land have still not got a clue what all the jargon means. It seems that the system has undergone changes as time goes by, many of them were changes that were initially identified as problems by various industry groups and individuals and it has gotten better and more flexible, no doubt about it, but I think it is a very genuine question to ask, without throwing pies at anyone, as to what has really been achieved, at what expense and has it been worthwhile? Time will tell, time will tell.

You are right and you are wrong

From an owners point of view you are right - and i can understand your frustration - its a bit like when they change the Superannuation laws yet again

However you are totally wrong when you come to TAB punters - because the new system is totally irrelevant to any astute punter - the key factor ive allways used is the clock - mile rates - and you need to know what is a decent quick mile rate for every track you bet - particularly interstate

A good example i can give is Bathurst ( 1700 metre races which is 80% of them ) my rating or cut off is 1.57 - go under that it is decent - go over that it is average to slow . So if something gets beaten 20 metres and they go 1.55 and a bit - and its in the running line - then its a good run

Their was a horse at Stawell on Monday- Asincharge - had 1 run for 1 win at Bathurst - but the mile rate was 159.9 - that is terribly slow - they put up 2s on - got out to 6/4 sat in the breeze got beaten 60 metres ( 1.58 rate which is quick ) they queried the run - but it ran to its ability

You assess every trotting track in Aust - or whichever states you like betting what is a quick/ slow mile rate - and you will win on the punt - it is as simple as that

What class of race or clauses which horses are eligible stakes won - discounts given - is totally irrelevant when it comes to betting

getthechange · April 17

As jay jay says time will tell but to clarify a few points
The WA system whilst presenting as one system is actually two systems loosely joined together.
The two systems are only joined in order to stop horses dropping back to quickly
The only drop back in HWOE races is via the also eligible clause and the HWOE races are one part of the two part system
The L5$ LT races are the drop back races which enables horses with profiles but which have reached their marks to continue racing and be in the market
There are six L5$ LT races and horses can rise and fall in these races but can only do so after five starts in the next highest L5$ LT races without winning
These six races currently occupy levels 4 - 6 - 8 (non metro Friday's) and levels 10 - 12 - 14 which are Friday G Park races
Possibly these races should have been called A B C D E F to differentiate
In effect these six races are claiming races but you don't lose your horse - if your horse wins he has to go up to the next level for the the next five starts in these type races - if the horse starts in that level for five starts he drops back a level in these races
Courage Tells for example had raced five times without winning in level 10 Friday races and so he was able to drop back to a midweek level 8 race - if he doesn't win in level 8 races at his next five starts he can drop to a level 6 in these races or if he wins in his next five starts he will go back up to level 10
The L5$ LT races are conditioned races based on their last five starts and not on their HWOE figure
Horses coming up the HWOE scale can go in these races if the trainer chooses or can race in HWOE races where they have protection from drop back horses as the only horses dropping back on them are those in under the also eligible clause
Punters and those setting the markets obviously take into consideration all factors but the L5$ LT races are conditioned races where the criteria is the class they have been racing in and the $ they have won in their last five starts
It is envisaged that in time these L5$ LT races will be mainly courage tells type horses while lesser horses will find the HWOE races without horses dropping back on them to be their best option
As mentioned in a previous post I believe the WA system protects the lesser horses better than the new ratings based system
The WA system will be able to be measured against the soon to be introduced ratings based system as all horses in AUS including WA will have both a HWOE figure and a ratings figure

As jay jay said time will tell

G'day Punter!

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