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  • The_BullThe_Bull    891 posts
    Regardless of the instructions, he's been riding long enough to know you can't ride like that.
  • detonatordetonator    2,644 posts
    Don’t know what all the drama is with the ride ?
    Didn’t anyone see the jockey urging the horse on......in the last 15m. Haha 
    :-B

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  • LooksLikeTroubleLooksLikeTrouble    88 posts
    if the jock had any brains he would've let it sail home and looked after himself

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  • detonatordetonator    2,644 posts
    The_Bull said:

    Regardless of the instructions, he's been riding long enough to know you can't ride like that.

    Please explain ?
    Ride like ????
    Cmon Bull. Say it. I know you want to.
    :D
  • The_BullThe_Bull    891 posts
    Rigor mortis...

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  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,329 posts
    I don't like to openly discuss riding tactics by Jockeys as I think it does no good overall for the Industry. But if you asked me about putting an Apprentice on to save a couple of kilo's, I can't think of any in this State that I could feel good about at the expense of a Senior Jockey and in particular one that already had a relationship with my horse.

    I know that anyone can make ill judged decisions, it's just the nature of sport, but experience in my opinion is worth more than the claim at this moment in time.

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  • detonatordetonator    2,644 posts

    I don't like to openly discuss riding tactics by Jockeys as I think it does no good overall for the Industry. But if you asked me about putting an Apprentice on to save a couple of kilo's, I can't think of any in this State that I could feel good about at the expense of a Senior Jockey and in particular one that already had a relationship with my horse.

    I know that anyone can make ill judged decisions, it's just the nature of sport, but experience in my opinion is worth more than the claim at this moment in time.
    Damien
    Are you saying in this instance a senior jockey would have disguised their intention better than a claiming apprentice ???

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  • RodentRodent    5,892 posts
    I just had a look and it's just about as bad as it gets. Needs 4 months minimum but I'd give him 9 months.
  • UttsyUttsy    122 posts
    No matter what they give him or potentially anyone else that may have been involved, the punishment is never long enough.
    To assume that this would be the first time it’s been done would be incredibly naive, until punishments become harsh enough across all forms of cheating in racing, these things will continue to be attempted at will.
    Imagine if it was under instruction, the pure and flagrant disrespect for the integrity of racing, and then trusting that with a 3kg claimer.
  • JimmyPopJimmyPop    169 posts
    If you can't stop them before the corner, let them sail home.
    The onus is now on the stewards who are the protectors of the industry. 
    This cannot be tolerated. Reminds me of the good old Laurie Connell days.

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  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,329 posts
    detonator said:

    I don't like to openly discuss riding tactics by Jockeys as I think it does no good overall for the Industry. But if you asked me about putting an Apprentice on to save a couple of kilo's, I can't think of any in this State that I could feel good about at the expense of a Senior Jockey and in particular one that already had a relationship with my horse.

    I know that anyone can make ill judged decisions, it's just the nature of sport, but experience in my opinion is worth more than the claim at this moment in time.
    Damien
    Are you saying in this instance a senior jockey would have disguised their intention better than a claiming apprentice ???
    You have taken my comment out of context. I'm talking about the raw ability, it simply isn't there. People might think I'm being unfair but I wouldn't have an Apprentice  riding at a Saturday meeting in town. Too much is at stake. There are plenty of meetings around the State where they can hone their ability. I would like to think that this instance is just misjudgement in riding.
  • detonatordetonator    2,644 posts

    detonator said:

    I don't like to openly discuss riding tactics by Jockeys as I think it does no good overall for the Industry. But if you asked me about putting an Apprentice on to save a couple of kilo's, I can't think of any in this State that I could feel good about at the expense of a Senior Jockey and in particular one that already had a relationship with my horse.

    I know that anyone can make ill judged decisions, it's just the nature of sport, but experience in my opinion is worth more than the claim at this moment in time.
    Damien
    Are you saying in this instance a senior jockey would have disguised their intention better than a claiming apprentice ???
    You have taken my comment out of context. I'm talking about the raw ability, it simply isn't there. People might think I'm being unfair but I wouldn't have an Apprentice  riding at a Saturday meeting in town. Too much is at stake. There are plenty of meetings around the State where they can hone their ability. I would like to think that this instance is just misjudgement in riding.
    Damien Damien Damien.
    2 points.
    The first is this thread is about the ride and how suspect it looks to all and sundry. Not about the the value of a senior vs a claiming apprentice. 
    Start your own thread on that particular topic if you like.
    The second point “misjudgement in riding “. Are you talking about misjudgement in not using that leather thing in your hands or flicking those two strips of leather called reins or maybe a little heel action in the ribs ??? 
  • VicbitterVicbitter    29 posts
    Think everyone being a bit hard on Chris graham He is an apprentice (give him a break)
  • LooksLikeTroubleLooksLikeTrouble    88 posts
    Damiens right about one thing you never send a boy out to do a mans job

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  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,329 posts
    edited May 2020
    I want to think it is a 'misjudgement in riding' because I don't want to cast dispersion's against the young bloke. I don't even know him. What I'm saying is that I think it takes someone of incredibly high intellect to cunningly disguise a true deception, that the reason why most attempts stick out like dog's balls. 

    Racing Stewards in WA do not have a solid track record in catching these events. Reading the after meeting reports it would appear they all must have dinner dates as they mention nothing and disappear faster than last week's pay. Without this level of public scrutiny, I doubt they would have even gone down this rabbit hole. That kid over in Queensland getting time simply shone a light on the inexcusable and this incident has simply been a victim of heightened awareness of everyone watching from the cheap seats.

    What is really disappointing is that yet again Racing's integrity is being called into dispute on both sides of the country, but luckily nobody outside of the Industry will ever hear of this as nobody gives a rat's ass about Racing. That's the worst part about this incident.
  • hashhash    7,113 posts
    misjudgement? did he think there was another lap to go or something.... please

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  • RodentRodent    5,892 posts
    hash said:

    misjudgement? did he think there was another lap to go or something.... please

    Exactly. I would be happy to call it a misjudgement that cost him 9 months on the sideline.
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    3,664 posts
    It’s a shocking look and I’m with the majority he wasn’t trying but the question has to be why? What is in it for anyone involved with the horse not to try and win that race?

    He was at long odds, he is at the back end of his career you would think go out and make every post a would think would be the go.

    So my thought is the connections were basically of the opinion that they couldn’t win the race, they have told the young fella be kind to the horse here as it is just a run to bring him up to the top for races up coming where he can get some weight relief and he has just taken in to the full extent not using his own brain to go Jesus I’m actually going alright here I should have a crack. Very stupid yes, in need of punishment yes but I’m hopeful that is not more sinister so we don’t need to hang him.
  • sonnysonny    773 posts
    Hi , How many of you backed the horse on Saturday?? I have backed him the last 3 starts,  not on Saturday..  as the horse went terrible. Check them out .. I think Gilga is right..
  • UttsyUttsy    122 posts
    Say if a trainer has asked a jockey to hook a horse, how would that compare to offences in other sports?

    Spot fixing in a game of Cricket? Would the nature of why the horse was hooked have a bearing? Say hooked for dropping points as opposed to hooking to allow another horse to win. Does the attempted result affect the integrity of the race?

    Going through the stewards reports, say the harness trainer who was caught red-handed tubing a horse on race day.

    Could that be compared to say an athlete taking steroids? How about actual match fixing in Cricket?

    Just trying to get a bearing on comparable consequences as a result of actions across sports.
  • spinkingspinking    3,022 posts
    I think Gilga has nailed it. it is a case of intellect (misjudgment) over integrity. why go out to deliberatly give the horse a run if you were looking for better than the $35 they bet on Saturday you most probaly would not find it after that run. To reduce its rating. to drop its rating a couple of points (its a open class horse) none of the above seem likely even though they seem to be the only reasons to give a horse a run unless of course you baked something else in the race, but with stake money these days you would have to be puttin a bit on the one you backed.The kid is most probaly going to get time if not a very stern warning at least both of which if you backed the horse saturday you would exspect. At the end of the day the punter has to have some protection or recourse after a very poor ride like what we saw Saturday
  • VicbitterVicbitter    29 posts
    Gilgamesh talking a whole lot of sense- completely agree

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  • UttsyUttsy    122 posts
    edited May 2020
    I was thinking in more of a general sense and not specifically related to this particular incident.

    But in response to Gilga's point, so by definition, that horse was entered into the race with absolutely no intention of winning.

    What is competition and why are integrity measures in sport? I would imagine their intention is to ensure that all participants are there for the same reason, and that is to win. All competitors trying to win increases at least the perception of integrity, which would have positive flow ons for betting turnover.

    Yes you can argue there are horses entered into races with no intention of winning. ie a stayer at the beginning of a prep needing runs before getting over more ground. But you would also argue that if that horse won any of those races, connections would be delighted and there wouldnt have been any conveyance to the jockey, if he has a chance to win, dont take it. So ideally while there was no intention to win, there was also no intention to lose.

    Which therein lies the point (In Gilg's point), could you argue with that ride that there was any remote intent on winning that race? Looking plainly at the footage there looked a complete intent of not winning. Theres a huge difference between not intending on winning a race and intentionally trying not to win. 

    What effect does that have on the integrity of that race and the integrity of the industry as a whole? Absolutely nothing positive.

    Obviously this takes into consideration Gilgs point being the facts and in no way saying that that is what has occurred. More trying to create a discussion on integrity in racing, how it currently rates, how it could be improved, ideas on how it could improve etc.
  • ThunderstruckThunderstruck    4,875 posts
    edited May 2020
    He generally makes good sense does Gilga.

    A very foolish couple of minutes but don't hang him for it like the 2 yrs and life ppl said wtf!

    Don't recall him having any form for actions detrimental to racing so give him benefit of the doubt and a suspension of a couple of months max...with a clear message "don't ever be back here for integrity issues if you want to continue as a jockey or be involved in racing at all".

  • LooksLikeTroubleLooksLikeTrouble    88 posts
    If the jock had stayed to inside i doubt he’d got a clear run and just looked desperately unlucky and just bad luck
  • britbratbritbrat    88 posts
    Jeez Damian Wyer you go on with some crap.Apprentices shouldn't be allowed to ride in town etc etc.
    It's fairly obvious what the go is with this horse. On it's current form it won't win another race and the only hope is to run some points off.Last 4 starts including Saturday it's been beaten an average of 6.5 lengths.It's lost 4 points since the start of this prep and although it's 100 to 1 of ever winning another race they gotta try something. Retirement is a word that gang don't know. Fry an egg on their joints and they still run em.
    The Apprentice rider has had over 1200 race rides which tells you 2 things . He by now knows what needs to happen.He's still got a 3kg claim so he can't ride that good to put it mildly.
    It's their only defence
  • spinkingspinking    3,022 posts
    LLT Dont know which race you were watching . But the vision available to us i would say if he stayed to the inside he gets on the eventual winners back
  • FlandersFlanders    809 posts
    If anyone suggests Chris Graham doesn't yet know that giving a horse a run is against the rules they are full of it!!!
    If he was told to do it, he has two choices- carry it out or actually try. It looks like he chose the only risky option and he will pay the price.
    It is a crappy situation to put the kid in by the trainer or owner- get it wrong and this is the end result. On the flipside, if he chooses to try and it runs well, they won't put him on again.
  • spinkingspinking    3,022 posts
    Which one seems worse Vega one or Pushin shapes just asking?
  • detonatordetonator    2,644 posts

    Inside run outside run doesn`t matter.

    The horse was just going around for the exercise.

    The horse basically pulled its way into the position it finished.

    Didn`t this horse win a Melbourne metro race last spring and then run in the "time honoured" group 3 Coongy Hcp ? So obviously has some ability.

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