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Kay Cee got zero points for winning listed Raconteur

West Australian Racing
Can someone please explain to me why Kay Cee got no points added to her rating after winning last start in the listed Raconteur? Seems very strange

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  • ElitistElitist    358 posts
    edited June 2020
    Neither did Laverrod and Karijini aurora got 4 points for third..

    Hence why a number three year olds have avoided the guineas on Saturday. what's the point?
  • FlandersFlanders    809 posts
    Elitist said:

    Neither did Laverrod and Karijini aurora got 4 points for third..


    Hence why a number three year olds have avoided the guineas on Saturday. what's the point?

    Seems to be an issue for sure. Basically if a gun 3yo comes along, these set weight races (and SWP) are decimated because the rest are to scared to compete
  • The_BullThe_Bull    891 posts
    Karijini gets 4 points for running 3rd and earning $9000. Would have got the same for winning an open 3yo and earning $33000. That's why everyone avoids these better horses.
  • thefalconthefalcon    17,549 posts
    bull, does the same apply in eastern states similar conditions races?
    so e.g. if marocchino jagged 3rd place he'd cop 4 rating points?
  • The_BullThe_Bull    891 posts
    edited June 2020
    I have no idea. I also have no idea if the ratings system works or not. What I do know is that the Belmont Guineas is a field of 7. Tradensia is running in a 66+ race on the same day from barrier 18. If you can't beat them, avoid them. This is no knock on Tradensia. I think she could have given plenty of cheek. But why risk it for $9k...
  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    8,667 posts
    Power of St George opted elsewhere as well
  • TheFunksterTheFunkster    3,840 posts
    And La Vina got penalised 4 points when running unplaced (4th) and earning $4k.....!!!
    The Handicapping Policy clearly assesses 4th place as an "unplaced runner" which can either maintain their rating, or drop points. It does not say they can be penalised, even when running out of class.
    Yet that A grade flog, David Hunter reckons the POLICY is a "guideline" which they can elect to ignore at their discretion.
    Basically they can rate horses on ability, not wins and prizemoney. Thereby ruining a horses career prematurely.
    La Vina could have run in a Cl1 2 days prior (as a $1.50 fav), earnt 3 times the prizemoney and probably only copped 2 points....
    Hunter has NFI what he is doing and needs to be given the flick before he forces every half decent horse to leave the state. Expect a lot more small Sat fields while he is doing as he pleases.
    Thank god Burt has gone, as he was spineless and failed to act on Hunter & Co breaching RWWA POLICY!!

    thefalcon, Manchild likes this post.

  • Precision1Precision1    200 posts
    edited June 2020
    In a way it makes complete sense if youre meeting a clearly very good horse with a group 1 win in Kay Cee at a massive weight disadvantage and you compete admirably you have proven you are better than the current rating you’re given. Logic says the rating should go up but then the prize money earned for that doesn’t equate to the same rise in rating.  

    Truth is if they are handicapping fairly Karajini Aurora deserves that rating Rise on merit, absolutely proved its class.  But it’s detrimental to racing to discourage up and coming horses from these races......Can’t win eithercway
  • ElitistElitist    358 posts
    Tradensia, Power of St George and Fuhrer have all avoided the Guineas. Imagine if you beat Kay Cee, what kinda of ratings hike would you receive? probably enough to never win another race?
  • thefalconthefalcon    17,549 posts
    as i said above, if the 2 fancies run 1,2 which they probably will....and receive zero points, so the poor b*gger that runs 3rd cops 4 points, where is the logic in that? you have 5 very brave "second raters"...(no offence) making the effort to avoid a walkover or a 2 horse race.
    its got me stuffed. BUT where is the outcry from disgruntled owners and equally p*ssed off trainers. 
    the silence is deafening...
    btw, well said funkster....
    :-bd
  • FlandersFlanders    809 posts
    thefalcon said:

    as i said above, if the 2 fancies run 1,2 which they probably will....and receive zero points, so the poor b*gger that runs 3rd cops 4 points, where is the logic in that? you have 5 very brave "second raters"...(no offence) making the effort to avoid a walkover or a 2 horse race.

    its got me stuffed. BUT where is the outcry from disgruntled owners and equally p*ssed off trainers. 
    the silence is deafening...
    btw, well said funkster....
    :-bd

    True, but where do they voice this?
  • thefalconthefalcon    17,549 posts
    owners and trainers dob in to get a bloody good lobbiest...they can make hellava difference.
  • RodentRodent    5,892 posts
    A very very easy fix is to rate them as they do now except that you can get a discount based on prizemoney collected. That way you can have a ceiling on how many points you can cop. The Belmont Guineas should always be the preferred option for 3yos. Instead we see outrageous penalties on offer should you beat Kay Cee or a 3yo weight allowance for taking on older horses.
     It is almost as if they have designed 3yo features for the few and warded off challenges from the many.

    thefalcon, Manchild likes this post.

  • thefalconthefalcon    17,549 posts
    what did cambist get for running 2nd.?
  • ThunderstruckThunderstruck    4,875 posts
    Also 4 points.
  • FlandersFlanders    809 posts

    Also 4 points.


    The ratings don't get done until tomorrow

    Thunderstruck likes this post.

  • The_BullThe_Bull    891 posts
    edited June 2020
    Karajini carried 4kg less than KC and was beaten a length in the Raconteur, got 4 points. . Cambist carried the same weight as KC in the Guineas and was beaten 3/4. On that you would think that Cambist gets more than 4 points. I don't know though. Perhaps being different race conditions (SWP v SW) changes things...
  • ThunderstruckThunderstruck    4,875 posts
    Correct you are..oops
  • thefalconthefalcon    17,549 posts
    depends what side of the bed mr. hunter got out of..... :-B
  • FlandersFlanders    809 posts
    Maybe for these set weights and SW+P races they should have set points penalties that are documented in the race conditions. This would almost certainly attract much better quality because they aren't scared to have a go.
    For example:
    1st: 5 points
    2nd: 3 points
    3rd: 2 points
  • Precision1Precision1    200 posts
    Flanders that’s not then handicapping at all, just employ an intern to do it.  A handicappers job in an ideal world is to have every horse in a race finish at the same time.  Therefore a horse who proves its better than its rating should increase its rating and when Kay Cee wins a race it should be winning she doesn’t necessarily deserve a rise.  

    If we go to your theory then Kay Cee would now be rated 112 so basically in the top couple of horses in the country.  
  • FlandersFlanders    809 posts

    Flanders that’s not then handicapping at all, just employ an intern to do it.  A handicappers job in an ideal world is to have every horse in a race finish at the same time.  Therefore a horse who proves its better than its rating should increase its rating and when Kay Cee wins a race it should be winning she doesn’t necessarily deserve a rise.  


    If we go to your theory then Kay Cee would now be rated 112 so basically in the top couple of horses in the country.  

    Yeah true. My emphasis was more on being able to entice the lower-rated horses to actually run, so i guess maybe one set of points for horses rated 0-90 and a different set for 91+ etc etc? Just plucking out some numbers. It would be unorthodox for sure but i think it is obvious the Perth model needs something different rather than follow what the other states do
  • RodentRodent    5,892 posts
    You need a hard working handicapper who is a good judge in order for discretion to work.

    thefalcon, TheFunkster likes this post.

  • FlandersFlanders    809 posts
    Kay Cee - 0 points
    Cambist - 5 points
    Laverrod - 0 points
  • H-BOMBERH-BOMBER    8,667 posts
    Kay Cee should back up in the Strickland....but wont
  • Precision1Precision1    200 posts
    She’s guaranteed to win the Belmont Oaks for another $59K and zero rating increase. Why would you risk it 

    H-BOMBER likes this post.

  • TheDivaTheDiva    12,602 posts
    Cambist 5 points... that’s harsh.
  • FlandersFlanders    809 posts
    There must be an explanation.
  • The_BullThe_Bull    891 posts
    edited June 2020
    Easy explanation. It got within 3/4 length of a G1 winner carrying the same weight. Karajini carried 4 kg less in the Raconteur, earned 11k less and got 4 points. Cambist should have got more.
  • thefalconthefalcon    17,549 posts
    if i owned Cambist i'd be banging on the door of RWWA demanding to see the handicapper.. X(
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