Kay Cee got zero points for winning listed Raconteur

H-BOMBER · June 2020

If I owned Cambist I wouldn't be complaining at all

Tivers · June 2020

Not the handicappers fault.

As has been said many times - the system is broke.

Should be a max penalty for these circumstances (when running out of class).

On one hand the powers are frantic re the shortage of horses to form fields, on the other hand the system handicaps them out of the state.

thefalcon · June 2020

what steps would you take to rectify matters, tivers?

Tivers · June 2020

Not sure they have an option - are bound by the national handicapping protocols.

So lobby the national board I guess is starting point.

Problem then might be the perception you're cheapening your product, and become outcast.

I don't know..............I haven't been privy to those discussions / considerations (but would be interested to know).

TheDiva · June 2020

I would be opting for the other race option, like most of them did.

you have to weigh up if you run 2nd, is it worth the ratings points and or prizemoney of a win elsewhere?

(in this case, is it worth more ratings points than a win elsewhere).

Rodent · June 2020

Maybe if there was a bigger gap in prizemoney between basic races and the features, it wouldn't matter.

Nobody ever complains about rating points when they win a million dollar Railway.

thefalcon · June 2020

rodent, do you have similar problems, or perceived problems in NSW?

Tivers · June 2020

Bit of an outlier of a year - on how many other occasions have you had a G1 winner running in the race.

Actually, come to think of it - most years probably, as the KT is usually won by a 3yo.

Rodent · June 2020

thefalcon said:
rodent, do you have similar problems, or perceived problems in NSW?

No idea mate. I reside in Sydney but have completely lost touch with Sydney racing. I haven't followed them here for 20 years.

Thepluckygambler · June 2020

It’s easy to be critical but you need realistic solutions to go with your criticism. Everybody can point the finger but few can find a better way.

TheFunkster · June 2020

Rodent said:
You need a hard working handicapper who is a good judge in order for discretion to work.

That's why discretion should not be applied. It's too subjective. Keep this black & white. Horses shouldnt be rehandicapped on perceived ability. They need to be handicapped on wins and losses

TheFunkster · June 2020

TheDiva said:
Cambist 5 points... that’s harsh.

And what do you think of a 4 point penalty for running 4th....?

TheFunkster · June 2020

Thepluckygambler said:
It’s easy to be critical but you need realistic solutions to go with your criticism. Everybody can point the finger but few can find a better way.

Previous ratings system was a lot better imo. You knew what you were up for. Whereas now it depends on who else nominates for the race and what they do. It makes it difficult to plan a horses races and plan a career for longevity....

Lets use Cambist as an example. So what happens if Kay Cee had a stone bruise or temp and runs below par and Cambist wins. Cambist gets crucified by the handicapper, yet its peformance was enhanced by the lack of performance from a higher credentialled horse. Why should Cambist get crucified for that?

Yet Hunter and Co won't old back.

We'll be having horses running with 63kg in lower class races to avoid the handicapper. As he probably wont penalise them for winning with that weight. Yet run in a higher class...look out!

Flanders · June 2020

TheFunkster said:

TheDiva said:
Cambist 5 points... that’s harsh.
And what do you think of a 4 point penalty for running 4th....?

Who got 4 points for running 4th?

TheDiva · June 2020

My guess is La Vina.

and i have to agree... NO horse should be getting 4 points for running 4th in any race...

$4000 prizemoney for running 4th and you cop 4 points (talking about the Sheila Gwynne). You've actually beaten home Akiko, an out of form Mizlecki and Fancy Fox.... thats it!

That is precisely why so many horses dare dodging these races.

Having said that, on the few occasions we have considered racing a horse above its class, I have always called the handicapper to ask what penalty we would receive. So at the end of the day, you have the information and you have the choice.

Precision1 · June 2020

As someone said above the problem is the difference in prize money is not great enough. You wouldn’t miss a Caulfield Guineas because of the rating rise you might cop. These should be 300k races then we’d have full fields.

TheFunkster · July 2020

TheDiva said:
My guess is La Vina.
and i have to agree... NO horse should be getting 4 points for running 4th in any race...

$4000 prizemoney for running 4th and you cop 4 points (talking about the Sheila Gwynne). You've actually beaten home Akiko, an out of form Mizlecki and Fancy Fox.... thats it!

That is precisely why so many horses dare dodging these races.

Having said that, on the few occasions we have considered racing a horse above its class, I have always called the handicapper to ask what penalty we would receive. So at the end of the day, you have the information and you have the choice.

You shouldnt have to be ringing him. The Handicapping Policy should tell you everything you need to know to make an informed decision.

And the Handicapping Policy clearly states horses running 4th are classed as UNPLACED and can either drop points or remain on current rating. Only PLACED horses can have their rating increased.

Yet Hunter applied his discretion as to the horses 'perceived' ability. Now what has the horse done since; run 4th and 3rd in her own age group... Any chance of a retraction.... unlikely.

Submitting a formal complaint afterwards was a waste of time. Burt didnt give two hoots. Already had his bags packed. They drink their own bathwater in the Handicapping dept.

hash · July 2020

Do you ever think there are owners or trainers out there that might want their horse to be handicapped (in your books) unfairly in order to gain starts or be eligible for better races etc

thefalcon · July 2020

NO.

choc · July 2020

Reason for Kay Cee’s scratching?

tony · July 2020

From Julio Santarelli

Nothing overly wrong but has a got a reaction to her near fore and a bit sore when turned in a tight circle

Nev not taking any risks

thefalcon · July 2020

i had a gutty she would not start..dunno why...

H-BOMBER · July 2020

hash said:
Do you ever think there are owners or trainers out there that might want their horse to be handicapped (in your books) unfairly in order to gain starts or be eligible for better races etc

To get into a Railway? Yes

thefalcon · July 2020

then if its handicapped unfairly it may not be able to be able to win/place in those races to confirm a start in the biggy....its a conundrum...

carey · July 2020

the problem with this thread is that it has failed to show any unfairness with the examples given.

it is certainly not demonstrating anything that does not happen in other states.

there may well be some bad handicapping in wa, but none of the examples here are among them.

TheFunkster · July 2020

carey said:
the problem with this thread is that it has failed to show any unfairness with the examples given.
it is certainly not demonstrating anything that does not happen in other states.

there may well be some bad handicapping in wa, but none of the examples here are among them.

So why have they now updated the Handicapping Policy after my complaint?

Latest published version (11) now updated 5th May 2020; to state they can penalise horses down to 5th place who run out of handicap.

Yet Version 10 (in place when La Vina ran 4th) made no mention of this. Only that horses that run 4th were "unplaced" runners and could only drop points or remain the same.

So the hypocrites, by virtue of amending the policy have admitted I was right, but still didn't amend their error and take the 4 point penalty off...which cost us prizemoney at her next 2 starts....

JimmyPop · July 2020

If a horse wins by 4 lengths or more they would better placed handicapping it less.

Surely that is a common sense approach then if you were a good thing open up and win accordingly with no fear of additional penalty.

carey · July 2020

TheFunkster said:

carey said:
the problem with this thread is that it has failed to show any unfairness with the examples given.
it is certainly not demonstrating anything that does not happen in other states.

there may well be some bad handicapping in wa, but none of the examples here are among them.

So why have they now updated the Handicapping Policy after my complaint?
Latest published version (11) now updated 5th May 2020; to state they can penalise horses down to 5th place who run out of handicap.
Yet Version 10 (in place when La Vina ran 4th) made no mention of this. Only that horses that run 4th were "unplaced" runners and could only drop points or remain the same.
So the hypocrites, by virtue of amending the policy have admitted I was right, but still didn't amend their error and take the 4 point penalty off...which cost us prizemoney at her next 2 starts....

i don't know what they have done, but all the complaints here relate to non handicaps.

which means it's a whole different kettle of fish.
the horse that went up four points was rated at 58 it went up to 62 which is from memory the rating a maiden winner would get.

it raced in a 'barakey stakes' race, and it was WAY out of its grade.

should not have been in the race in the first place.

I have all the old templates, and it does not mention what placing, whereas the latest say down to 5th place.

so on that score, i would assume they could have penalised any placing.

the other point you have wrong......it was NOT a merit based handicap, it was a SWP penalty (AKA barakey stakes!)

i won't argue that hunter has/had no idea as regards handicapping, but that is a different issue.

and below would show that even after the 4 points it would still be carrying far too much weight.
if you were in the race to win it, and i have to assume you were, then you have right to complain about the 4 points.

it will also show why Kay Cee could not get a penalty,......it was so favourably weighted under the race conditions

exact same reason why many horses don't get a higher rating for winning...all over austraila.

Tivers · July 2020

TheFunkster said:

carey said:
the problem with this thread is that it has failed to show any unfairness with the examples given.
it is certainly not demonstrating anything that does not happen in other states.

there may well be some bad handicapping in wa, but none of the examples here are among them.

So why have they now updated the Handicapping Policy after my complaint?
Latest published version (11) now updated 5th May 2020; to state they can penalise horses down to 5th place who run out of handicap.
Yet Version 10 (in place when La Vina ran 4th) made no mention of this. Only that horses that run 4th were "unplaced" runners and could only drop points or remain the same.
So the hypocrites, by virtue of amending the policy have admitted I was right, but still didn't amend their error and take the 4 point penalty off...which cost us prizemoney at her next 2 starts....

Couple of points hasn't cost you anywhere near as much as your horse not being WestSpeed nominated.......... :-??

carey · July 2020

TheFunkster said:

carey said:
the problem with this thread is that it has failed to show any unfairness with the examples given.
it is certainly not demonstrating anything that does not happen in other states.

there may well be some bad handicapping in wa, but none of the examples here are among them.

So why have they now updated the Handicapping Policy after my complaint?
Latest published version (11) now updated 5th May 2020; to state they can penalise horses down to 5th place who run out of handicap.
Yet Version 10 (in place when La Vina ran 4th) made no mention of this. Only that horses that run 4th were "unplaced" runners and could only drop points or remain the same.
So the hypocrites, by virtue of amending the policy have admitted I was right, but still didn't amend their error and take the 4 point penalty off...which cost us prizemoney at her next 2 starts....

i took the time to look at its next few starts.

it has cost you NOTHING in those races, as both times it was on the limit.

it could have been rated -50 and still got the same weight,
maybe the 62 enabled it to get a run, where otherwise it may not have......don't know as not up to date with wa at moment.
i would also argue that the last race that it won, it has benefited from the idiotic way they do the weights in wa.
there is no way they could not have had a 54 min(or at least 54.5) that race, because their software is crap, and raise by lot in the first instance, thus disadvantaging horses on those higher minimums and putting them OOTH needlessly
NOW THAT, is crap , and pathetic handicapping.

G'day Punter!

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Kay Cee got zero points for winning listed Raconteur

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