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Harness & Greyhounds

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  • JayJayJayJay    7,629 posts
    edited December 2020
    Marko, with respect, it is exactly the handicapping system. Yes the field was "atrocious" (your words not mine) but the differences between the two systems in operation enable this to happen. Do you understand the difference between the NR and the HWOE systems? Horses keep their HWOE for life and yes, they can drop back into $L5 races but if they happen to win one, the "joy ride" is over and it is back to another run of not being competitive for 6 weeks. With NR, horses progressively drop up and down according to their form......and whilst we have the two systems operating simultaneously against each other, nonsense like this will continue to happen. It is worse than the difference in rail gauges that made the national railway network a joke......at least you could hop off and change trains at the border and still get to your destination. The two different systems operating in what is supposed to be a national industry has turned WA Harness racing into a drafting gate.....lower ability take the left exit to the Eastern States, higher ability take the right gate to Dallas, Fort Worth......the common denominator for either gate is that you cant race either of the drafts in WA without going belly up broke. People aren't selling their horses because they want to, they are selling them because they have to. I have raised this issue ad nauseum since the "trial" period began in November 2018, saying sarcastically at the time that I hope Smackwater Jack didn't mind the taste of SA water. I have been continuously ridiculed ever since but still the migration continues. And I have seen nothing to change my mind. Happy New Year to all the fine folk in the RWWA Harness Office.

    MrSmartArse likes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts
    I know the handicapping system contributes to it - however even before the discrepancy in the handicapping system - the last place i would bring a horse to race is WA - simply because it is top/tough competition over here 

    In NSW  and Vic - there are weak areas and regions -where you can astutely place horses in average fields and win nice prize money 

    For example - since the pandemic thing - Mildura have had about 15-20 meetings - and at  each of those meetings - they have had a 12k free for all on the card - Bernie Winkle has won a stack of them - Bernie Winkle goes to Melton - its 100-1  and cant get warm 

    If your racing horses purely for a return/profit - then race them in the NSW Riverina - they are 7k races - very low std horses - or race them in the Tamworth/New England area of NSW - again very good stakemoney - and very low class horses 

    Contrast that to Pinjarra/Bunbury - you need a decent horse to win or even to fill a place 
  • JayJayJayJay    7,629 posts
    edited December 2020
    Bernie Winkle is a pretty serious horse, 37 wins, 17 this season, 10 of them at metro Melton meeting over the course of his career, a 1.53.5 life time record and about $380k in stakes. In the NR system, there are races for him and it is true he has won a stack of races at Mildura as they have FFA races for horses  NR 30 to120 (which is an issue in itself, a gift for a horse of his ability) but in WA, with a HWOE north of $210k, where does he go? He is a level 15 horse, so its FFA's and Cups versus Chicago Bull, Shockwave, Mighty Conqueror etc or its off to North America.

    I agree it is very hard to win a race at particularly Pinjarra....Neighlor won a race there but that's it for me in the last 3 or 4 years.

    Muldoon likes this post.

  • MuldoonMuldoon    317 posts
    JayJay said:

    Bernie Winkle is a pretty serious horse, 37 wins, 17 this season, 10 of them at metro Melton meeting over the course of his career, a 1.53.5 life time record and about $380k in stakes. In the NR system, there are races for him and it is true he has won a stack of races at Mildura as they have FFA races for horses  NR 30 to120 (which is an issue in itself, a gift for a horse of his ability) but in WA, with a HWOE north of $210k, where does he go? He is a level 15 horse, so its FFA's and Cups versus Chicago Bull, Shockwave, Mighty Conqueror etc or its off to North America.

    I agree it is very hard to win a race at particularly Pinjarra....Neighlor won a race there but that's it for me in the last 3 or 4 years.
    I would think there is not too many easy races to be won anywhere in WA.
  • JayJayJayJay    7,629 posts
    Not even at Busso is there an easy get.....it was as cold as a magistrates stare last night but the racing was as usual ultra competitive......quite a few horses didn't cope with the charge to turn 1. It's the most definitive "horses for courses" track in Australia I reckon. Huge crowd present early on, the tote and bar were absolutely jam packed but understandably, due to the Arctic Southerly blowing, it thinned right out. Hawaiian shirts, boardies and thongs don't cut it on a cold night.....a couple of the stewards, unprepared or rookie mistakes, were making inquiries about spare horse rugs after race 3.
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    edited December 2020
    That was Karma Deni Roberts getting up in GP R5 with Divinnia Bellezza ....seemed victim of an ordinary act earlier in running
  • Cant_RefuseCant_Refuse    198 posts

    That was Karma Deni Roberts getting up in GP R5 with Divinnia Bellezza ....seemed victim of an ordinary act earlier in running


    They locked wheels? Please explain what your insinuating
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,719 posts
    Headline Act was a drive that lacked a lot of any endeavour. She does a lot right but that looked very poor, use the right reign.

    Markovina likes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts
    Just watched a replay of that race - the 2 who locked wheels - big performances to run one./.two- considering the ground they lost

    Pretty hard to argue against the point Gilga  raised - surely you would just ease wider ( didnt have to shove anyone out of the way ) and test your horse in the straight - no excuse for not doing that in my opinion 
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts

    That was Karma Deni Roberts getting up in GP R5 with Divinnia Bellezza ....seemed victim of an ordinary act earlier in running


    They locked wheels? Please explain what your insinuating
    Thought Deni's drive copped a fairly abrupt hip and shoulder in a pretty mercenary disengagement process ... and deserved the win after being knocked out of its gait and losing its position while ostensibly minding its own business.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts
    Monday night - and TAB.Com have got the fixed odds up nice and early for Narrogin which is very good 

    Going through the form - i like 3 of them on an e/w basis 

    Race 1 - Songkran - liked its run 2 starts ago at Northam - did it very tough - slightly dissappointing last start at Bunbury- but maiden 2 yr old field with very little depth - $26 is a nice price

    Race 5 - hot field - Alfredi - good tough effort in the breeze last start in good time - $16 - in the breeze or lead would be great over the sprint trip

    Last race - quite a few of them met in the same race  at GP - very limited field - Flywillowfly had no luck at all - shuffled right out of it - hit the line allright - it was as good a run as its stablemate who is 5/4 fave - where as it is $12 - something e/w - yes thankyou 
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,786 posts
    Markovina said:

    Just watched a replay of that race - the 2 who locked wheels - big performances to run one./.two- considering the ground they lost


    Pretty hard to argue against the point Gilga  raised - surely you would just ease wider ( didnt have to shove anyone out of the way ) and test your horse in the straight - no excuse for not doing that in my opinion 
    When you look at a racing incident always, 100m prior & 100m after a incident is golden rule to categorically state  what actually  took place,

    My persian version woodlea ragar  was he driven careless,was  the  horse untractable-- unruly did the pace slacken abrutly & gave the driver no option
     Remember Roberts was minding her own business outta harm's way,in a split second she could have hit the deck.
    Look at woodlea ragar card shows  has been noted to have overaced on four previous occassions.Also has had to do four mobile trials,at one time to get back in draw. 

    So i am seeing a untractable horse. Once they have had more then ten starts generally they lay there cards on the table,--- No doubt have seen horses change stables and problems disappear. But his 49 starts in.

    Last horse i called out as dangerous universal major hope his retired.he changed yards to no avail' with his problems. Yank Carts only make the dance look better,
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts
    Narrogin - 1st race 4.27pm - then 34 minute gaps - i know  so it fits in over east with their time 

    But surely a 7pm start - 20 minutes gaps - its over by 9.20pm - much more pleasant for the horses and participants - and the big money is on the fixed odds not the tote so the turnover would still be pretty  good 

    cisco, Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Thanks Marko backed it ew so happy.
    Few nervous moments though, great drive to get through.
    Now for Alfredi agree great ew chance at odds.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts

    Thanks Marko backed it ew so happy.
    Few nervous moments though, great drive to get through.
    Now for Alfredi agree great ew chance at odds.

    Ihave had bets everywhere - on holidays so why not - Devenport/Bendigo/Globe Derby/Narrogin - and AP this afternoon - 

    Was a good drive of R Bells to get 3rd 

    Thunderstruck, freodockers likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    No comment Marko good thing beaten.
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts
    Be interested in posters views - especially if you have got a background in horses

    But race 8 at Kilmore today  Ace Duigan - 8 year old - pretty modest record -12wins - about 80k in stake -decent price and it won - but it is its racing pattern which is interesting - and i have to say most exciting 

    It was allways a mad puller - so about 20 starts back - they let the thing bowl - - and it killed them at a huge price - stewards couldnt believe it - impounded it - took swabs left right and centre 

    However it has done it every start since - obviously doesnt allways win - but like today - comes out hard - gets 30 metres in front - breaks 30 sec for the 1st 2 qtr of the last mile - then the qtr down the back it really  tries to put them to the sword- 27 seconds - gets a little tired in the straight - but  rated 1.57.2 for 2100 met at Kilmore - which is very slick 

    And honestly alot of the horses that chase it - just give up - and drop off like flies - just interested  why  other horses havent tried these tactics 

    But ive got to say - win lose or draw - its allways exciting to watch that horse in a race

    cisco, Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • Cant_RefuseCant_Refuse    198 posts
    New Year’s Eve at GP been getting plenty of airtime via ads on both the television and radio. Bit more effort has been put in so kudos where it is due. Well done GP now hoping they get a decent crowd
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,786 posts
    Marko--- nothing more exciting in both codes then a tearway leader that keeps going, even the commentators who love to capture  the  moment , start rolling out the superlatives for driver or rider if they win
    .Remmeber  as kid listening to Bert Byrant and his calls of scotch and dry,who would get out by 20-25 lengths in front and win, he was geniune f/runner. catch me if you can. Crying Game was one---Might and Power led all the way to win caulf.& melb. cups unheard off.

    Harness alot more rare to see horses clear-out on regular basis, they more lilkey to have bolted or hit the foot rests and takeoff, and the driver becomes just  a passenger & then becomes a clever drive if it hangs on.

    Do remember a mare driven by Reg Ridley would fair dinkum lead  by 50- 100m  start after start he had a large supporter base they would be screaming, she would be still 40-50m in front at the quarter  she never seen the judge first.

    Over time what people believed  is not necessarily so.now. Things like keep away from the death chair,& his too small to be any good. Since probably 80s has been a huge shift to race outside the leader, Drivers started to believe in the theory my horse is the best. horse  in races,& control  races from the death,Front running drivers are as only good as the bloke in the breeze.will allow them.to be. .

    The old theory his a big horse & possess a nice long rein (gallops)& will stay all day, thats has been proven  not quite right. People will say what about  this or that horse. In harness & gallops  the shorter the neck less distance to the lungs to repay oxygen.debt  is a handy starting point, theirs alot contributing factors that make a good horse.

    But the speed harness horses go around at g.p. the big gangly horses struggle. to continually perform at the highest level week in week out.-------- The bull,& Quinnee  ---being small in stature would  be a huge contrbuting  factor to there longevity at the highest level.

    Marko 90%-95% horses are born  with some sort l/s air way deficiency % wise. Your great front runner won't come out of that bracket, got to find it in the other 5-10%  ---easy ha.

    Markovina likes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts
    Also today at Kilmore - the WA owner /breeder / trainer Ian Barker had a nice win with his 2 year old Hy Leinvincible - only had the 1 run in WA - and had now had 2 runs in Vic for a 1st and a 2nd 

    All his horses i think are called Hy something - im trying to think of that open class one he has got - this 2 year old was similar - big horse - suited by the spacious Kilmore track - 2nd line - into the breeze - and it was super impressive - 56.4 closing sectional - powered away from the favourite 

    He has got a nice horse their 

    curmudgeon likes this post.

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    The best standing start front runner I ever saw was a horse in the seventies at GP ...Culver Dene. Chris Robinson used to drive him most times and he could lead by 100m after a lap ...sometimes he held on...most times he didn't... but he sure as hell excited the crowd

    JayJay likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    7,629 posts
    Best ever free roller was 1970's speedster Royal Vance......won his heat of The Derby and The Sires Produce Stakes....lead by 80 to 100m at the bell. Ran his first mile in 2.00 minutes flat from the stand.
  • JayJayJayJay    7,629 posts
    Hy Leexciting Marko?

    Markovina likes this post.

  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,719 posts
    Come bet at Gloucester Park punters. R4 tonight, one horse $1.70, second fave $2.05. You get better odds than that in a two horse game of sport let alone the fact this is a full 12 horse field!
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,786 posts
     No Wonder Why race fields full over, when a race was programed to be run at northam  five days into the new season 2021  for three year olds, with L4- L5 assessment---- please tell me,  who would have been  eligible  in that category .------see race was deleted with no nominations.
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,719 posts
    I’m getting sucked in again but Headline Act looks a massive price @20/1 in race 5 today in what to me looks a collectively easier race.
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Did you know Gilga it has won 7 races in its career 6 of them by leading.
    Yes you are correct, your getting sucked in.
    Like me a few starts ago, but never again til it gets barrier 1.

    Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • Ivorytrunkey86Ivorytrunkey86    204 posts
    Like to know the last time jnr handed up the lead on a 2.20 pop
  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,719 posts

    Did you know Gilga it has won 7 races in its career 6 of them by leading.
    Yes you are correct, your getting sucked in.
    Like me a few starts ago, but never again til it gets barrier 1.




    It will get me again next time on that run :D
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    How did Warriors Legacy miss out on 4yo race
    3yo metropolitan form 1 win and two seconds from last 10 starts
    Other horses with country penalty form get preference
    Feel for connections
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