New Handicapping System for the Trots

getthechange · January 31

agree with aussie that like pref draws on MCR pref draws on only L are only historical and are less effective than RBD
the attachment is a comparisonof RBD and pref draw on from nov/dec 2020

Arapaho · January 31

Dollars last 2, 3, 4 starts is just not a fair assessment of a horses over all ability

If a horse has won more money and in a higher grade than a horse that has won say its last 1 or 2 it must start outside that horse .

Its all about progression, when you win, you go up a class ,some will go further than others,some will race till they are 14 and still be competitive ,others will break down or reach their mark and stop earning regularly.

PBD on L class and overall HWOE is the fairest way to go

Especially with the current system.

Personally i wish my horse would draw 9 every week at Gp in a L15 race.

Would have a couple of mil in bank too ,like Chicago Bull

Think most of us, would you rather own, a out of form horse with $50000 in the bank,then a horse that has won his last 2 with $20000 in the bank, at this precise time..

Barriers can only be sorted on what a horse has achieved at the present time

.

Who knows whats going to happen tomorrow.

aussiebattler · January 31

Arapaho said:
Dollars last 2, 3, 4 starts is just not a fair assessment of a horses over all ability
If a horse has won more money and in a higher grade than a horse that has won say its last 1 or 2 it must start outside that horse .
Its all about progression, when you win, you go up a class ,some will go further than others,some will race till they are 14 and still be competitive ,others will break down or reach their mark and stop earning regularly.

PBD on L class and overall HWOE is the fairest way to go
Especially with the current system.

Personally i wish my horse would draw 9 every week at Gp in a L15 race.
Would have a couple of mil in bank too ,like Chicago Bull
Think most of us, would you rather own, a out of form horse with $50000 in the bank,then a horse that has won his last 2 with $20000 in the bank, at this precise time..
Barriers can only be sorted on what a horse has achieved at the present time
.
Who knows whats going to happen tomorrow.

You say sort them on HWOE/L then current form what about in the following scenario how would you draw them other than RBD to make a race that benefits the industry

10 horses in a race
Horse A 10 wins in 100 starts current form last 5 09876 L9
Horse B 10 wins in 50 starts current form last 5 65432 L9
Horse C 10 wins in 25 starts current form last 5 33345 L9
Horse D 8 wins in 8 starts current form last 5 11111 L7
Horse EFGHIJ Have 9 wins in 75 starts current form last 5 09532 L8

maybeso · January 31

aussiebattler said:

Arapaho said:

You say sort them on HWOE/L then current form what about in the following scenario how would you draw them other than RBD to make a race that benefits the industry

10 horses in a race
Horse A 10 wins in 100 starts current form last 5 09876 L9
Horse B 10 wins in 50 starts current form last 5 65432 L9
Horse C 10 wins in 25 starts current form last 5 33345 L9
Horse D 8 wins in 8 starts current form last 5 11111 L7
Horse EFGHIJ Have 9 wins in 75 starts current form last 5 09532 L8

That race would be a L8/9 HWOE LT $40,000.

Horse D would draw outside horses EFGHIJ, so depending where the race was run, or not, should draw gate ... um ... 5?

Har!

Arapaho · January 31

I stated, L class and then HWOE no mention of form.

Firstly horse D must have won a aged race or a couple community stakes race to still be a L7 after winning 8 races as 8 x$4485 normal country stake would give him a HWOE of $35880 which would make him a L9 .

But you can only work with what your given..

Assuming this race was programmed as a L7/L10 with no concessions for mares ,juniors etc

B 1 Horse D L7 HWOE between $18000-$24999

B 2 to B7 Horses EFGHIJ L8 HWOE between $25000-$32499

B 8 to B10 Horses ABC L9 HWOE between $32500-$39999

As you havent Supplied exact HWOE on those horses, B2 to B7 and B8 to B10 Barriers would be decided by lowest to highest HWOE in those particular groups.

In fairness to horse D and his connections he should draw B1 as he has won the least races and stakemoney and so on for the others.

And whats best for the industry, you tell me ,as I assume you are talking about turnover.

Someone, like you, may think he is a good thing because of form and barrier and have $20000 on him, greatly increasing turnover. Hope you collect.

Arapaho · January 31

AB have no problem with RBD with horses that have same L class

My beef is with PBD $L3

aussiebattler · January 31

Arapaho said:
I stated, L class and then HWOE no mention of form.

Firstly horse D must have won a aged race or a couple community stakes race to still be a L7 after winning 8 races as 8 x$4485 normal country stake would give him a HWOE of $35880 which would make him a L9 .
But you can only work with what your given..

Assuming this race was programmed as a L7/L10 with no concessions for mares ,juniors etc
B 1 Horse D L7 HWOE between $18000-$24999
B 2 to B7 Horses EFGHIJ L8 HWOE between $25000-$32499
B 8 to B10 Horses ABC L9 HWOE between $32500-$39999

As you havent Supplied exact HWOE on those horses, B2 to B7 and B8 to B10 Barriers would be decided by lowest to highest HWOE in those particular groups.

In fairness to horse D and his connections he should draw B1 as he has won the least races and stakemoney and so on for the others.

And whats best for the industry, you tell me ,as I assume you are talking about turnover.
Someone, like you, may think he is a good thing because of form and barrier and have $20000 on him, greatly increasing turnover. Hope you collect.

Nah don’t back 1.05 favourites off the 1 gate will save my 2x3 for a more interesting race

I don’t think going on historical earnings alone for a PBD would work and at the moment your L class is set by your HWOE and race type unless you can stay racing in $L5 races which are all RBD

there is a big difference between horses that win 10 in a row and ones that win 1 in 10/20 starts and for PBD/L they would need to treat it like the drop back rule to account for time in the industry but only apply a drop back for placing 6-12th place which may work (still rbd each level in L7/L10) and they could also use the combined PBD/L/HWOE on some races to Draw them wider within a set level race then as well (the ones coming through can still draw inside the older historically earnt )

They could use that method and re-Calibrate horses levels based on historical data at any time to make a big change to the industry and keep many horses more competitive so we don’t lose as much stock to the east

It’s not all about winning but earning a bit to survive helps

Arapaho · February 1

Its not all about winning but earning a bit to survive helps

My point exactly-

But we got to think of everyone

Not just ourselves

Example.

If every body is starving and they are giving out 10 food vouchers per person and someone has already got theirs (10 Wins L9) HISTORY;

Why should they be allowed back in line before someone who has only got 8 (8 wins L7)

Just because that guy looks good.

As I said we dont know whats going to happen tomorrow and that guy may never get passed his 8 vouchers as people keep bogging in looking for a extra 1.

When they have both got 10

Then and only then ,we have a random draw

Cant be any fairer then that.

aussiebattler · February 1

Arapaho said:
Its not all about winning but earning a bit to survive helps
My point exactly-
But we got to think of everyone
Not just ourselves
Example.
If every body is starving and they are giving out 10 food vouchers per person and someone has already got theirs (10 Wins L9) HISTORY;
Why should they be allowed back in line before someone who has only got 8 (8 wins L7)
Just because that guy looks good.
As I said we dont know whats going to happen tomorrow and that guy may never get passed his 8 vouchers as people keep bogging in looking for a extra 1.
When they have both got 10
Then and only then ,we have a random draw
Cant be any fairer then that.

I look at sustainability whereas you seem to prefer the gorge yourself system

10 food vouchers over 100 weeks

10 food vouchers over 10 weeks

Sooner or later the one that filled themselves up early is going to get hungry then he would be wanting a share of someone else’s rations

getthechange · February 1

pref draw suggestion - thresholds could be flexible

getthechange · February 1

one of the reasons WA horses have such low NR figures - see attachment

lick · February 1

What is wrong with age racing, C and M and Open racing, all RBD - best horse wins.

JayJay · February 2

A genuine inquiry GTC....When the architects of HWOE embarked on the journey to develop what I have no doubt they believed was a fairer handicap system, did they envisage it would come to this, which I poached off another PTT contributor off Facebook:

L5$
LT $12,000 (CONCESSIONS L5$ LT $13,500) NE Horses with Max Start Level
11+ Last 5 Starts NE Horses with Max Win Level 8+ Last 5 Starts AE HWOE
$40,000+ with a Max Start Level LT 13 AND a Max Win Level LT 8 that have
been Preferred Eligible Acceptors, other than Late Nominations, for the
L5$ LT $20,000 race at Prior Friday GP Prime meeting and who have not
gained a start at that meeting. (RL8) (Concessions for Novice
Driver,Fillies & Mares)

Royboy · February 2

Jay Jay you can see how 11 out of 23 that were nominated for a race at Pinjarra weren’t eligible!Glad I haven’t got a big team in work. I’ve got to have a rest after nominating!

JimmyPop · February 2

JayJay said:
A genuine inquiry GTC....When the architects of HWOE embarked on the journey to develop what I have no doubt they believed was a fairer handicap system, did they envisage it would come to this, which I poached off another PTT contributor off Facebook:

L5$
LT $12,000 (CONCESSIONS L5$ LT $13,500) NE Horses with Max Start Level
11+ Last 5 Starts NE Horses with Max Win Level 8+ Last 5 Starts AE HWOE
$40,000+ with a Max Start Level LT 13 AND a Max Win Level LT 8 that have
been Preferred Eligible Acceptors, other than Late Nominations, for the
L5$ LT $20,000 race at Prior Friday GP Prime meeting and who have not
gained a start at that meeting. (RL8) (Concessions for Novice
Driver,Fillies & Mares)

You can't be serious. Is that just for one race.

getthechange · February 3

jay jay - short answer no but not sure how it could be worded much differently

I dont know why it isnt set out differently to make it easier to read by separating the conditions

eg

L5$ LT $12, 000 (CONCESSIONS L5$ LT $13, 500)

NE Horses with Max Start Level 11+ Last 5 Starts NE Horses with Max Win Level 8+ Last 5 Starts

AE HWOE $40, 000+ with a Max Start Level LT 13 AND a Max Win Level LT 8 that have been Preferred Eligible Acceptors, other than Late Nominations, for the L5$ LT $20, 000 race at Prior Friday GP Prime meeting and who have not gained a start at that meeting.

(RL8)

(Concessions for Novice Driver, Fillies & Mares)

reason for the AE -

to allow horses ballotted from GPM L5$ LT $20k races to start in a GPC L5$ LT$12k race as they were in a catch 22 position -

eg a HWOE level 12 horse is balloted from a L5$ LT$20k(level 10) race and hasnt completed five consecutive level 10 starts so isnt eligible for the GPC L5$ LT $12k(level 8).

Two choices

he can wait a week and hope he gets starts in the following weeks in order to drop back to the GPC race (level 8) or he can start in a GPM race higher than level 10 which will trigger a new start level five count

The AE clause allows those horses that fitted the horses preferred($40k+) and was eligible for that GPM race and balloted from that race only to start in the GPC race provided they didnt start in another race at the GPM meeting or they werent balloted because they were a late nom

The clause "balloted on form" is used in some races to stop late noms with good form getting a start if balloted

eg

Conditioned PACE

NE Winners FFA (Level 15) Last 10 starts or Placegetters (2nd, 3rd) FFA (Level 15) Last 3 Starts.

NE HWOE $100, 000+ with Max Win Level 14+ unless balloted from FFA on form.

AE HWOE $100, 000+ balloted from FFA on form.

PBD/HWOEL2

Preference To HWOE $100, 000+ (If Eligible)

(RL14)
NO CONCESSION CLAIMS

how that race currently appears

Conditioned PACE NE Winners FFA (Level 15) Last 10 starts or Placegetters (2nd, 3rd) FFA (Level 15) Last 3 Starts. NE HWOE $100, 000+ with Max Win Level 14+ unless balloted from FFA on form. AE HWOE $100, 000+ balloted from FFA on form. PBD/HWOEL2 Preference To HWOE $100, 000+ (If Eligible) (RL14)
NO CONCESSION CLAIMS

aussiebattler · February 3

getthechange said:
jay jay - short answer no but not sure how it could be worded much differently
I dont know why it isnt set out differently to make it easier to read by separating the conditions
eg
L5$ LT $12, 000 (CONCESSIONS L5$ LT $13, 500)
NE Horses with Max Start Level 11+ Last 5 Starts NE Horses with Max Win Level 8+ Last 5 Starts

AE HWOE $40, 000+ with a Max Start Level LT 13 AND a Max Win Level LT 8 that have been Preferred Eligible Acceptors, other than Late Nominations, for the L5$ LT $20, 000 race at Prior Friday GP Prime meeting and who have not gained a start at that meeting.
(RL8)
(Concessions for Novice Driver, Fillies & Mares)

reason for the AE -
to allow horses ballotted from GPM L5$ LT $20k races to start in a GPC L5$ LT$12k race as they were in a catch 22 position -
eg a HWOE level 12 horse is balloted from a L5$ LT$20k(level 10) race and hasnt completed five consecutive level 10 starts so isnt eligible for the GPC L5$ LT $12k(level 8).

Two choices
he can wait a week and hope he gets starts in the following weeks in order to drop back to the GPC race (level 8) or he can start in a GPM race higher than level 10 which will trigger a new start level five count
The AE clause allows those horses that fitted the horses preferred($40k+) and was eligible for that GPM race and balloted from that race only to start in the GPC race provided they didnt start in another race at the GPM meeting or they werent balloted because they were a late nom

The clause "balloted on form" is used in some races to stop late noms with good form getting a start if balloted
eg
Conditioned PACE
NE Winners FFA (Level 15) Last 10 starts or Placegetters (2nd, 3rd) FFA (Level 15) Last 3 Starts.
NE HWOE $100, 000+ with Max Win Level 14+ unless balloted from FFA on form.
AE HWOE $100, 000+ balloted from FFA on form.
PBD/HWOEL2
Preference To HWOE $100, 000+ (If Eligible)
(RL14)
NO CONCESSION CLAIMS

how that race currently appears
Conditioned PACE NE Winners FFA (Level 15) Last 10 starts or Placegetters (2nd, 3rd) FFA (Level 15) Last 3 Starts. NE HWOE $100, 000+ with Max Win Level 14+ unless balloted from FFA on form. AE HWOE $100, 000+ balloted from FFA on form. PBD/HWOEL2 Preference To HWOE $100, 000+ (If Eligible) (RL14)
NO CONCESSION CLAIMS

wow that's seriously screwed up the last 5 rule exception for a metro ballot , the way its explained seems contrary to the rules ,Theoretically he could be on start 1 in L5$ LT $20k after dropping from a higher level get a ballot and drop 2 classes just because he was balloted from a Friday ,

I say make him wait a week I have had to many times before for a ballot places should be earned not gifted

that's criminal

no wonder people leave the industry

aussiebattler · February 3

anyone got a boat for sale ?

Arapaho · February 3

Back in the day with the 2.28 and R C M systems WA had a another back up system which trainers and owners could use-;

If your horse couldnt compete in the Metropolitan area it went to the stronger country tracks (pinjarra etc) ,if unable to earn there, Northam ,was a option, again having trouble,,out to Narrogin and Wagin and then, if still struggling, out to the outer country tracks, Albany, Kellerberrin, Kalgoorlie and Geraldton.

On the flip side the better horses from the country would go the other way, most ending up with trainers in the Metropolitan and stronger country tracks

Now with Geraldton and Kalgoorlie gone Albany and Kellerberrin having a limited number of meetings,the same can be said about Wagin and Narrogin ,no wonder horses are disappearing.

With RWWAs process of withdrawing meetings to one area, these lesser lights (horses) are now fiinding it hard to earn, especially having to front up against the top stables and the NZ imports

.in these restricted areas.

There's no place to hide.

With all this occuring participants are now screaming for barriers and a handicapping system,that can make these horses competitive

.

When Kalgoorlie came to a grinding halt.11 meetings down to zero,

There was still at least 14 registered trainers and drivers in the region(S Boyd,J Boyd,B Curtis,.C Condipodero,C Hazelwood,T Hoye,R James,D Kelly,L Lapworth ,T Lapworth,B Rennie,G Sayers,B Snell,N Sly(named them to prove a point), not to mention M Saw,C Burch and A Cortopassi whould reside in Kalgoorlie for the whole season plus the 4 or 5 licensed strappers..

Over 80 individual horses started jn Kalgoorlie that final season.

RWWA gave 2 main reasons for the Quick closure firstly

Tyranny of Distance,-

Well the type of horses that would race in Kal ,the lucky ones are finding themselves a distance of 4 or 5 times further, out of the state ,never to return.

The 2nd reason, according to RWWA , most participants voted for this closure in a survey..

The funny thing is that , some of these participants are now squealing where have all the trainers and horses gone.

So I would suggest,before voting about the demise of another particular club and thinking it would be good if they close, as we will get their ration of meetings and stake money on our doorstep,Think Again ,because, you will be next.

And those Professional Metropolitan trainers thinking, great,We will end up with the lot

Id be getting a forklift drivers ticket,if I were you, just in case, as we are not only losing Horses and Trainers from these areas but Owners and Punters as well,

Harness Racing is a Industry not a business and to me it would be a no brainer that employees,hanger offers etc would either take a pay cut or get the chop before any licensed participant, who made their jobs available, in the first place.

getthechange · February 3

aussie - the L5$ LT level 14 race has been replaced by the level 14 conditioned race(below) to try and ensure horses dont stay home in their box and also for horses balloted from the GPM meetings there is a race at Pin(below) - all three races are trying to provide racing opportunities - with fields selected on $L5 starts a horse with low $L5 could be balloted regularly from the L5$ LT $20k race and the PIN race doesnt always hold up - also eligible horses balloted from another meeting isnt new and this was seen as an opportunity to race for a horse that was at least 13th in line for a start in the L5$ LT $20k race, any horse that falls into that category is eligible for a start in the L5$ LT$12k race - with all horses balloted from the L5$ LT $20k races possibly being able to get a start instead of staying home the call of criminal seems harsh

GPM

Conditioned PACE

NE Winners FFA (Level 15) Last 10 starts or Placegetters (2nd, 3rd) FFA (Level 15) Last 3 Starts.

NE HWOE $100, 000+ with Max Win Level 14+ unless balloted from FFA on form.

AE HWOE $100, 000+ balloted from FFA on form.

PBD/HWOEL2

Preference To HWOE $100, 000+ (If Eligible)

(RL14)
NO CONCESSION CLAIMS

L10+ CONDITIONED PACE

HWOE LT $100, 000 with L5$ LT $2, 250 (NO CONCESSION CLAIMS)

AE Preferred Eligible Acceptors, other than Late Nominations, for RL10 to RL14 races at Prior Friday GP Prime meeting with Max Start LT 15 who have not gained a start at that meeting. Preference to HWOE $40, 000+

(RL9)

NO CONCESSION CLAIMS

aussiebattler · February 3

getthechange said:
aussie - the L5$ LT level 14 race has been replaced by the level 14 conditioned race(below) to try and ensure horses dont stay home in their box and also for horses balloted from the GPM meetings there is a race at Pin(below) - all three races are trying to provide racing opportunities - with fields selected on $L5 starts a horse with low $L5 could be balloted regularly from the L5$ LT $20k race and the PIN race doesnt always hold up - also eligible horses balloted from another meeting isnt new and this was seen as an opportunity to race for a horse that was at least 13th in line for a start in the L5$ LT $20k race, any horse that falls into that category is eligible for a start in the L5$ LT$12k race - with all horses balloted from the L5$ LT $20k races possibly being able to get a start instead of staying home the call of criminal seems harsh

GPM
Conditioned PACE
NE Winners FFA (Level 15) Last 10 starts or Placegetters (2nd, 3rd) FFA (Level 15) Last 3 Starts.
NE HWOE $100, 000+ with Max Win Level 14+ unless balloted from FFA on form.
AE HWOE $100, 000+ balloted from FFA on form.
PBD/HWOEL2
Preference To HWOE $100, 000+ (If Eligible)
(RL14)
NO CONCESSION CLAIMS

Pin
L10+ CONDITIONED PACE
HWOE LT $100, 000 with L5$ LT $2, 250 (NO CONCESSION CLAIMS)
AE Preferred Eligible Acceptors, other than Late Nominations, for RL10 to RL14 races at Prior Friday GP Prime meeting with Max Start LT 15 who have not gained a start at that meeting. Preference to HWOE $40, 000+
(RL9)
NO CONCESSION CLAIMS

if system is designed so horses have to run at a level 5 times and be unplaced to be able to drop back to the next level thats what it should be allowing horses to drop in before their time just because they got a ballot seems to be breaking the rules (or at least bending them to suit someones needs ) it would not entice any lower assessed horses to enter ,in fact they are not eligable if they win an R Class Value race

To Solve your Issue select fields in Ascending order for the L5 LT races

and program more level races instead of the LT 20/25k

getthechange · February 3

If the five consecutive starts were changed to non consecutive starts trainers could just start their horses and when the horse has had five starts without winning at or below the required level it would drop down - the horse balloted from the L5$ Lt$20k could then nom for the LT$25k race or some other race on the program as second or third pref - the start wouldnt count towards dropping back but it also wouldnt trigger the start of a new five count -

Have debated the above relatively minor detail to no avail so I think the chances of a radical change to the L5$ LT races to what you suggested and it being accepted would be remote

cisco · February 3

Hello Boys,

Hope you are all safe and well over there. I started this topic in November 2018 and fair dinkum all I have now is a bloody headache!!

I compare the discussion to a game of tennis that has gone on and on with no winners or losers!!

You would think in this day and age some type of solution could be found.

Cheers

cisco

freodockers · February 3

Agree Cisco whilst I no longer am a contributor to the industry, this is going around in circles.
Just hope our friends are not using this site as a sounding board or Avenue to address queries.

aussiebattler · February 3

freodockers said:
Agree Cisco whilst I no longer am a contributor to the industry, this is going around in circles.
Just hope our friends are not using this site as a sounding board or Avenue to address queries.

They read it at headquarters and Colin is directly involved in its construction but I have fair dinkum had enough talking about it as well,have never been asked for input but have readily provided some off my own bat ,when requesting official reports or information very little is given if any .

I seriously think the little Aussie battlers opinion is not regarded as important they are not interested in anything that supports ground level industry

freodockers · February 3

Pretty simple AB if it’s considered industry negative put it to vote.
1. Would you prefer current system or NR system at your own expense if NR system doesn’t work.
2. For positive feedback which I am sure RWWA could/would have more spin in there system,
Have you lost confidence RWWA regarding our control of Harness Racing in WA.
Pretty simple survey.
Similar to the one they did for Kalgoorlie.
However I don’t think the “tyranny” of a loss of confidence vote would result in the same action.
Note you probably wouldn’t get to see result based on past performance.

JayJay · February 3

It gets read alright.....I think we are regarded much like your mad uncle, who you sincerely hope gets a flat tyre on the way to your home for Christmas Dinner......as popular as a Royce Hart in a telephone box. I sometimes gain amusement imagining the looks of disdain on faces as comments are dismissively perused as originating from the Jurassic era.

aussiebattler · February 3

freodockers said:
Pretty simple AB if it’s considered industry negative put it to vote.
1. Would you prefer current system or NR system at your own expense if NR system doesn’t work.
2. For positive feedback which I am sure RWWA could/would have more spin in there system,
Have you lost confidence RWWA regarding our control of Harness Racing in WA.
Pretty simple survey.
Similar to the one they did for Kalgoorlie.
However I don’t think the “tyranny” of a loss of confidence vote would result in the same action.
Note you probably wouldn’t get to see result based on past performance.

The industry participants have no power their vote means very little these days

freodockers · February 3

You would be surprised by the power of people if they get there heads together AB.

getthechange · February 4

aussiebattler said:

freodockers said:
Agree Cisco whilst I no longer am a contributor to the industry, this is going around in circles.
Just hope our friends are not using this site as a sounding board or Avenue to address queries.
They read it at headquarters and Colin is directly involved in its construction but I have fair dinkum had enough talking about it as well,have never been asked for input but have readily provided some off my own bat ,when requesting official reports or information very little is given if any .
I seriously think the little Aussie battlers opinion is not regarded as important they are not interested in anything that supports ground level industry

aussie - your thoughts are considered

Jeremy posted something similar on PTT a while back and I
thought at the time that there was some merit in what he said and is probably
what got me thinking about form runners dropping back.

Certainly Baylan Jet – Rock Me Over – I see Nothink and
Bletchley Park to name a few have form that in my opinion should be deemed too
good to be afforded a drop back

On the other hand increasing from five to 10 starts doesn’t
solve the problem as while it would slow the movement of form runners it would
cause grief for those that are really struggling at the level

The compromise to me is to stay at five starts and putting a
restriction on the amount you can win in those five starts from an eligibility
to drop point of view.

That way horses that
are struggling get to drop back after five starts and those earning ok money
and with good from don’t drop back until their form in last five starts drops
off

G'day Punter!

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