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Absurd handicapping again

West Australian Racing
Diablerie had a country rating of 79 before it won a 70+ at Albany. Lickety Split had a country rating of 70 in the same race finishing 2nd by a sizeable 2.5L. As is standard, Diablerie would have gone to c82 and Lickety Split to c71. So if they meet again on a country track, Diablerie would meet LS at least 1kg worse as is reasonable.
 Instead, they race at Bunbury where the handicapper sees fit to reduce Diablerie from a c82 to an m71 (an 11 point discount!) and LS gets reduced from a c71 to an m65, a mere 6 points in comparison. So at Albany Diablerie bolts in with 58.5kg vs Lickety Split's 54kg. The handicapper then thinks it's fair that when they meet at Bunbury next start, Diablerie should carry 59.5kg vs Lickety Split's 56.5kg. That's right, the handicapper thinks it is fair that Lickety Split should meet the horse that thrashed it last start 1.5kg worse. What a joke.
 Imagine being LS's owner and getting nosed out by Diablerie in those circumstances. Well, that is indeed what happened. My blood would be boiling.

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  • FlandersFlanders    809 posts
    Rodent said:

    Diablerie had a country rating of 79 before it won a 70+ at Albany. Lickety Split had a country rating of 70 in the same race finishing 2nd by a sizeable 2.5L. As is standard, Diablerie would have gone to c82 and Lickety Split to c71. So if they meet again on a country track, Diablerie would meet LS at least 1kg worse as is reasonable.

     Instead, they race at Bunbury where the handicapper sees fit to reduce Diablerie from a c82 to an m71 (an 11 point discount!) and LS gets reduced from a c71 to an m65, a mere 6 points in comparison. So at Albany Diablerie bolts in with 58.5kg vs Lickety Split's 54kg. The handicapper then thinks it's fair that when they meet at Bunbury next start, Diablerie should carry 59.5kg vs Lickety Split's 56.5kg. That's right, the handicapper thinks it is fair that Lickety Split should meet the horse that thrashed it last start 1.5kg worse. What a joke.
     Imagine being LS's owner and getting nosed out by Diablerie in those circumstances. Well, that is indeed what happened. My blood would be boiling.

    Sounds like a real shambles.

    On the other hand @Rodent I hope you factored this in and had a win on the race?
  • RodentRodent    5,892 posts
    Flanders said:

    Rodent said:

    Diablerie had a country rating of 79 before it won a 70+ at Albany. Lickety Split had a country rating of 70 in the same race finishing 2nd by a sizeable 2.5L. As is standard, Diablerie would have gone to c82 and Lickety Split to c71. So if they meet again on a country track, Diablerie would meet LS at least 1kg worse as is reasonable.

     Instead, they race at Bunbury where the handicapper sees fit to reduce Diablerie from a c82 to an m71 (an 11 point discount!) and LS gets reduced from a c71 to an m65, a mere 6 points in comparison. So at Albany Diablerie bolts in with 58.5kg vs Lickety Split's 54kg. The handicapper then thinks it's fair that when they meet at Bunbury next start, Diablerie should carry 59.5kg vs Lickety Split's 56.5kg. That's right, the handicapper thinks it is fair that Lickety Split should meet the horse that thrashed it last start 1.5kg worse. What a joke.
     Imagine being LS's owner and getting nosed out by Diablerie in those circumstances. Well, that is indeed what happened. My blood would be boiling.

    Sounds like a real shambles.

    On the other hand @Rodent I hope you factored this in and had a win on the race?
    I was on Lickety Split and saved on the first 4 with Diablerie. Got knocked out of that by Overthought. No joy for me. It doesn't matter from a punting perspective but it is just dumb to handicap them like that and I feel sorry for the owners of Lickety Split.
  • NgawyniNgawyni    571 posts
    edited December 2020
    I agree. It's not as if Diablerie had an inflated country rating resulting from numerous country wins so that he should receive a bigger reduction when converting back to a metro/provincial rating. Diablerie has had 5 provincial starts for 1 win and 3 seconds. Lickety Split had had 3 provincial starts for 2 wins and 1 second. 

    I can see how it happened though. The problem is Diablerie's country rating was too high to begin with because, unlike his metro rating, his country rating was not adjusted down each time he failed in Perth, so the gap between his country and metro ratings became bigger and bigger. 

    After Diablerie failed in Perth on 28/3 his metro rating would have dropped to m72. He then ran at Albany on 12/4 and was given a country rating of c78 - a differential of 6 between his metro and country ratings. He then ran second at Albany so his country rating would have gone up 1 to c79.

    He then returned to Perth on 2/5, was given a rating of m 74, and ran last. Despite running last his country rating didn't drop because at his next start, after a spell, at Kalgoorlie on 26/7 he was again given a rating of c79. He failed again. His country rating may have then dropped to c77 or, as he was first up, it's more likely to have stayed the same. We can't tell from CRIS.

    He then has another 4 runs in Perth and fails each time. His metro rating drops, most likely to m66 after his failure on 26/9. Then he goes to Geraldton on 11/10 and is given a country rating of c77. So despite having failed 6 times since his second at Albany (failing 5 times in Perth and once in Kalgoorlie when first up), his country rating dropped by only 2 points - from c79 to c77 - and now there is a 11 point gap between his metro and provincial ratings (m66 v c77).

    It's likely that he received a 1 point increase to both his metro and provincial ratings for each of his seconds at Geraldton and then a 3 point increase to both his metro and provincial ratings for his win at Albany, which altogether would have taken him to m71 and c82 - which is why his rating went from c82 to m71 when he returned to Bunbury this week.

    The problem is it all went out of kilter when he had those runs in town and his metro rating dropped from m74 to m66 but his country rating dropped by only 2 points - from c79 to c77.

    It's easy enough to fix but you would then end up with the problem of some country trainers bringing their horses to Perth after their season is over and running them repeatedly just to get their country rating back down for the next season.

    savethegame likes this post.

  • careycarey    6,247 posts
    or alternatively....
    metro and country centric ratings are not necessary.
    other places do just fine without them.

    i know db(who reviewed wa) is in favour of them, but i think he is wrong in this case.





    Rodent, JimmyPop likes this post.

  • thefalconthefalcon    17,549 posts
    nice to hear from you again carey. hope all is going well and those little plovers (?) are thriving on the beaches.
  • careycarey    6,247 posts
    fine thank you falcon.
    had not been allowed to beach for a long time, so just getting back into now that restrictions have eased.

    Chris, HotJules likes this post.

  • NgawyniNgawyni    571 posts
    Missing Pro penalised 5 ratings points for winning a $25K 0MW at Bunbury. 

    Resortman penalised 4 points for winning a $70K 66+ at Ascot


    JimmyPop, Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • NgawyniNgawyni    571 posts
    Neufbosc 3 points for winning the Carbine - and 3 points for winning the ATA - both $100k listed races.

    Did I mention Missing Pro getting 5 points for winning a $25k 0MW at Bunbury - and then nothing off when 8th of 9 at its next start . . .

  • RodentRodent    5,892 posts
    No penalty for winning a race in the 2yo open set weights at Ascot on Saturday. Sniparoochy bolts in a race and still gets the minimum weight. How dumb is that. It meets The horse it towelled up on the same weight terms.
  • careycarey    6,247 posts
    edited January 8
    i am way of it for wa, but i still like looking sometimes.

    latest guide that i can find...

    WESTERN AUSTRALIAN THOROUGHBRED RACING
    HANDICAPPING GUIDE

    VERSION 11 – 05 MAY 2020
    Colts & Geldings 57.0kg; Fillies 55.0kg

    For wins in a race run on or after April 6 2020
    Horses which have won a race of the advertised value to the winner of $11,000 or over to carry
    1kg extra; for each additional such race thereafter a further 1kg penalty applies.


    from latest calendar...

    STANDARD SET WEIGHTS & PENALTIES CONDITIONS FOR 2YO PLATES
    Colts & Geldings 56.0kg; Fillies 54.0kg

    For wins in a race run prior to April 6 2020 & on or after August 1, 2020
    • Horses which have won a race of the advertised value to the winner of $12,000 or over to carry 1kg extra.

    ....what happened between april 6 and august 20?

    i guess the current rules explain why it has no penalty, but these guys are harder to follow than when i am checking foreign language racing sites.

  • TiversTivers    7,598 posts
    Detonator Stakes Saturday - Trap For Fools weight can't be correct, surely ? (56.5kg)
    It's weighted as though it's won ONE $100k race.

    Can't see the stake for each of it's wins, but surely must be up for the 3.5kg extra ($150k win) at the very least ?
    Although I'd expect the Flem G1 win would have been > $300k to the winner.
  • TiversTivers    7,598 posts
    edited February 16
    Oh, hang one.................there's a time limit to it ?

    Yes.............(races post 1/2/19)
  • LooksLikeTroubleLooksLikeTrouble    88 posts
    wtf
  • FlandersFlanders    809 posts
    Tivers said:

    Oh, hang one.................there's a time limit to it ?


    Yes.............(races post 1/2/19)

    Yes I had a dig about this over the Summer when Great Shot got into a SWP race real light, then someone on here pointed out the same conditions
  • TiversTivers    7,598 posts
    Yep, just gets in VERY well.
  • octaviusoctavius    2,290 posts
    Where does it say 1/2/19, I see...

    "Penalties
    applicable for wins in races conducted on or
    after 1 August 2018"
  • TiversTivers    7,598 posts
    In the handicapping notes

    BLACK TYPE SET WEIGHT & PENALTIES CONDITIONS

    For races held between 1 August 2020 & 31 January 2021, penalties applicable for wins in races conducted on or
    after 1 August 2018. 
    For races held between 1 February 2021 & July 31 2021, penalties applicable for wins in races conducted on or after
    1 February 2019.

    So perhaps the notes for the race specifically are presented incorrectly, but the overall handicapping provisions overwrite.
  • RodentRodent    5,892 posts
    Designer Prince went from a 49 rater to a 58 rater for running 3rd in a maiden at Pinjarra on 11/7/19.
    Designer Prince goes from a 52 rater to a 57 rater for winning a C3 at Bunbury on 17/2/21.
     If you can justify that, I'd like to hear the reasoning.
     Just to reiterate, running 3rd in a maiden sees you on a higher rating than winning a C3!
  • thefalconthefalcon    17,549 posts
    ^ :-??
  • TiversTivers    7,598 posts
    Placing in a maiden sees you go back to starting rating (58 for a C/G).
    I wouldn't be overly fussed re whether my horse was a 57 or 58 rater........
  • RodentRodent    5,892 posts
    Tivers said:

    Placing in a maiden sees you go back to starting rating (58 for a C/G).

    I wouldn't be overly fussed re whether my horse was a 57 or 58 rater........
    Pretty stupid system. Place in a set weight MDN and go to 58. Win a MDN hcp and you can end up a 50 rater
  • FlandersFlanders    809 posts
    Pretty sure I sae a first starter at York yesterday that had 60kg. What's the go there?
  • tonytony    2,072 posts
    Was actually 3 in the first race with a 58 rating but the other starters had lower ratings
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