G'day Punter!

In this Discussion

Who's Online

0 Members & 31 Non Members

Tales and Thoughts of Yesteryear.

West Australian Racing

Comments

  • paraleticparaletic    3,750 posts
    Part of the reason i dont back any so called “experts” tips. In fact i put a line thru them.

    bookielover likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,788 posts
    Para- Dead right the real good judges--don't  put everything on the table---they have other means.Plus couple betting commentators can milk a extra 40-50c on the one they have punted.& also not necessary the one they have tipped----Followers of Queensland racing would know who was master at it. --

    Saying they have come for 7 like there's no tomorrow.& plus the 6 is also a strong.go.& crikey they haven't forgetten the 5.&--------- he would be on the 2. Scenario's like that  were quite regular occurrence's

    Then a weasel from the corporate's-- or someone representing them starts coat tugging ---trying to square the ledger, buy trying to ramp one up,that there's been no money for. Gee alot dribble can happen in last two minutes to start time.. 


    Getting back to Jack.D.(Joe Win)---very humorous man from all reports.

    Fronted--  Bart said listen Bart i am alot better trainer then you,----Have had only  100 horses and   Won  Group 1 with everyone of them.------

                              Being a lockdown  day down for some------stretch the grey-matter.

       Anyone got train of thought regarding how he got  to achieve  them  numbers.
  • bookieloverbookielover    2,623 posts
    STG,

    That Glenn Munsie is a beauty at it. He's a glorified, albeit well paid, tout for the TOTE.
    And who are the mugs having the so called big bets they put up on screen  prior to the jump.

    $4,000 on scrotum at $2.80 when you can have that plus more on Betfair at $3.50.


  • paraleticparaletic    3,750 posts
    Brent Zerafa, lost his job on TVN for not tipping one that he actually got a tip on. They went thru his sms’s
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,788 posts

    .. 



    Getting back to Jack.D.(Joe Win)---very humorous man from all reports.


    Fronted--  Bart said listen Bart i am alot better trainer then you,----Have had only  100 horses and   Won  Group 1 with everyone of them.------

                     .
     Told to me----- You ---- Can  just imagine Bart looking through his Shadow Roll,saying what are you using. Jack said electricity, that makes them go.
     Jack owned 100 coin operated power driven Horse Rides  ----,that back in the day they seemed to be outside a lot  shops----Hence everyone was Group 1 performer. for Jack.

    spinking, Tucool likes this post.

  • SLIPPERGOLDENSLIPPERGOLDEN    7,744 posts



    $4,000 on scrotum at $2.80 when you can have that plus more on Betfair at $3.50.


    That's if you had the balls to back Scrotum  :D

    bookielover, savethegame, Manchild, jum likes this post.

  • SLIPPERGOLDENSLIPPERGOLDEN    7,744 posts
    Coincidentally a horse running Warwick tonight (wed)  R1 BALZAC
  • Piston_BrokePiston_Broke    2,047 posts
    edited February 2021
    Cassidy swore on his kids life it tried, without doubt the hottest thing I've ever seen, and still got in the Hall Of Fame after the Jockey tapes scandal

    carey likes this post.

  • Piston_BrokePiston_Broke    2,047 posts
    edited February 2021
    .
  • Piston_BrokePiston_Broke    2,047 posts
    spinking said:

    This one will go down in the tales section , but beleive me is as true as me sitting here typing it.Will not mention the name of the culprit but here it is . Years ago on Mathieson road in Ascot there lived just up from the corner of Moreing street and Mathieson road a big German fella bye the name of Zimmerman. Every morning for a few weeks running someone had pinched his home delivered West Australian. Well Zimmerman had had enough so this morning he lies in wait. And the culprit who was riding a lot of work for Col Webster , and to this day still says it was the first time he pinched Zimmermans paper. Pulls up in the darkness and grabs the paper from Zimmermans front lawn. Bang Zimmerman pounces from behind a bulga tree and grabs him. The jockey pleads his case that its the first time he has pinched the paper. Zimmerman is having nothing of it , and to make a statement handcuffs said jockey to the lightpole out the front. You can imagine the look on Col Webster his staffs face as they drive along Mathieson road with their second trip back to the track to see their jock handcuffed to the post. Let alone the look on the jocks face as everyone going to the track spotts him there handcuffed to the post . True story

    Max Roney at his best
  • thefalconthefalcon    19,949 posts
    long time no see P_B, hope all is going well.

    Manchild likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,788 posts
    Just on --------HALL FAME  JOCKEYS.

    Thought  W.A. racing would have added rider  Neville Percival---into there  hall of fame by now.

    Born in Jarradale first ride was winner just a brief list of his achievements in the saddle.

     MELBOURNE CUP. White Nose. 1931. Caulfield Cup Palfresco. Two Adelaide Cups. Brisbane Cup. Doomben Cup.--- Warwick Farm Cup Menagle Cup (nsw)--- Kalgoorlie Cup. Hannahs HCP. Two boulder cups.

    South Africa--Durban Gold Cup  Stewards Gold Cup. two of the main  feature races.

    India --  Calcutta  Mayfowl Cup---Ronald shay Cup. two  of the main features

     Read where in  one W.A. season Percival  rode 143 winners ---- 65 in metro. area.

    Was on course --- When Rod  Kemp went to KALGOORLIE & won  on Todbury to break Mark Grigsby state record of around 128 wins.was the last meeting of the season.

    One article says over  a kalgoorlie 6 day race round.rode  18 winners.

    Be interesting to see what feature wins he had in the city.

    Carried two nicknames the miracle midget--- & The pocket Hercules went to scale  at 6st. 12 lb. 43.5 kgs.

    Be flukers hope for Hall of  Fame nom.

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,788 posts
    ADD - A -Newmarket Hcp.--- Oakleigh Plate-- Toorak Hcp.-- he never stopped going from state to state. By Air ---- but mostly by Car..

    thefalcon, Ridersonthestorm33 likes this post.

  • thefalconthefalcon    19,949 posts
    i've heard of him but jeez what an imposing record....
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,788 posts
    edited February 2021
    Spin king love the history of Goldfields round you just mentioned Craig Wake on Triggers post, thought one of the greatest achievements in W.A. racing was Craig's first winner at his 10th ride in a race  weighing  39kgs.was in the 1980 Kalgoorlie Cup, on Bridge of Friendship had to withstand a protest.

    W.A. has had two terrible protest upheld decision's one Ma Doubt  jockey  ( M.Sherwood) won the race eased down by official margin of 2-1/2 lengths for interference at the start -----.Of cause the other one involved Bridge of Friendship who was ridden by  a 16 yearold  Danny Hobby.won  the Bunbury Cup after the race was taken off Great Cat. the margin looks 3-4lengths on the vision.

    The rules don't allow inexperienced apprentices to ride in feature races.nowadays

    But there was  1979 Coolgardie Cup that Tamil Prince  reached the line first 31/2  lengths clear, only to lose on protest----Have no opinion  on that one.. The 1600m start at Kalg.if you draw wide its a hard ask.---- Jockey Gary Gath was on the marker line after 200m in field of 14 from a wide gate. the protest was based on the start.

    REX -might know was Gary Gath related to famous Harness Driver Brain Gath? whos still driving winners at 76----What was the camps feeling on losing that one was it justified ?

    Plus jockey Parkinson  were did he originate from------  thinking one G.L W. brought over?

    Gary .Gath read were he lost his life in a car accident at 32. but was  already retired from riding.
    .

    spinking, Ridersonthestorm33 likes this post.

  • spinkingspinking    3,739 posts
    Gary (foo) Gath i am positive rode for George Way STS . At the time if my memory serves me correct G.Gath Terry Finger  Peter Finger and Tommy Graham all lived at the same premises in Thompson street adjacent to the Ascot Inn. What a great pub it was in its day. On the subject of protests was it La Trice and Kilrickle protest upheld in a Railway bit before my time. Was a very good rider and great bloke to boot C.Wake taken way way to early

    Manchild, Ridersonthestorm33 likes this post.

  • spinkingspinking    3,739 posts
    Sorry that should have been STG not STS. Could have been worse STG i could have wrote STD

    savethegame likes this post.

  • RexRex    397 posts
    spinking said:

    Gary (foo) Gath i am positive rode for George Way STS . At the time if my memory serves me correct G.Gath Terry Finger  Peter Finger and Tommy Graham all lived at the same premises in Thompson street adjacent to the Ascot Inn. What a great pub it was in its day. On the subject of protests was it La Trice and Kilrickle protest upheld in a Railway bit before my time. Was a very good rider and great bloke to boot C.Wake taken way way to early

    Tommy Graham, what a comic. Remember him out with Colin Duffy for dinner one night and both ordered the same meal. It took a good while to come but Colins came first. Tommy grabbed the meal, spat on it and told Colin he could have his when it arrived.

    savethegame, oldhendo likes this post.

  • SLIPPERGOLDENSLIPPERGOLDEN    7,744 posts
    May have posted on here before but I heard Tommy Graham had a nice collect on favourite numbers several years ago.
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,788 posts
    spinking said:

    Sorry that should have been STG not STS. Could have been worse STG i could have wrote STD

    Ha-Ha put that down to you being busier then a one-arm paper boy with crabs. :))

    spinking likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,788 posts
    Palfresco ----Vital  story -----After reading what alleged took place,and researching old newspaper articles.Have grave doubt that he won the Kalg.Cup---Hannans Hcp as Vital in sept 36 ,what has been alleged in some quarters,

    Palfresco won 1935 Caulfield Cup as a three yearold. Then in july 36 his owner who had lessed him out for a period of two years which had commenced nov 34. until end of nov 36. put a court injunction concerned about his leg with three affidavits from vets regarding his leg issues.

    It was settled out of court with the owner making a payment to the lessee with a clause she wasn't allowed to race the horse before end of Nov.36,

    Would there be anywhere you could find Palfresco  total race record?.  He won his first start Jan 1st   35, He later stood at stud  in queensland.
  • savethegamesavethegame    2,788 posts
    Bookie Lover have come across quite few stories of a legendary Bookmaker  Sol Green that done alot good deeds in Melb. One story he oufitted his book-making  crew with new suits made to order with no pockets in pants or  jackets.
  • bookieloverbookielover    2,623 posts
    Hi STG.

    My dad told me about Green,and as a lover of reading and researching all I can about bookmakers in the old days, I know a bit about him.

    He had actually retired from bookmaking in 1913. He arrived penniless as a 15 year old, took out a license at age 21,went broke, went back to England for a brief visit, must have got a bank there of some sort, came back, and for 20 years was one of Australia's biggest bookmakers.

    He ran a huge doubles business on the Caulfield and Melbourne cups, which became so big that he had no idea how big his liabilities were going to be. That is what apparently caused his early retirement at age 35. 

    He was a brilliant figures man and could calculate percentages in a split second. He used that to advantage when he would go back to England each year for the Derby, go to the call of the card, and would back every horse to make a profit, no matter which horse won the race.

    He owned the first every import to win a Melbourne cup in 1910 called Comedy King and won two Newmarket handicaps in 1926 and 1927 with Gothic, and the 1928 derby with Strephon, and won a fortune backing them. He would only back his horses, and had an incredible strike rate with them. 

    Jim Pike who rode Phar Lap to win the 1930 Cup was being saddled up to ride Gothic in the 1927 Newmarket. The odds were 5/2. He said to Green, "I've had 2,000 pounds on this. It's the biggest certainty in a race I have ever ridden, and if I had 4,000 pounds I would have had that amount on it" Green said, "it's because you are a hopeless punter, that you haven't got the extra 2,000." The horse bolted in. Pike who won all the big races,was, as Green stated, a hopeless punter and unfortunately died broke.

    Although Green used to drive around in a gold plated Rolls Royce, he always played down his wealth which seems contradictory. He would never tell anyone when asked if he won, if he had won. In fact one day, every horse which won on the 6 race program, was at 20/1 or better, and  a bloke walked up to him as he was leaving the track, and said, "Mr. Green, surely you have won today"? Green replied, "well I did not lose".

    Green, left an estate of 480,000 pounds when he died in 1948, and that was after he had already donated 40,000 pounds to the Royal Melbourne Hospital.

    Just to add to my 27 chapter post, there were some massive bookies from 1900 till about 1955 who worked in Melbourne and Sydney.

    In Melbourne in 1900,Joe Thompson was named king of the ring for his massive betting. Bob Janson who fielded from 1915 till about 1935 wouldn't blink an eye when asked for 10,000 on a 5/1 chance. Jim Hackett in Sydney, once bet Eric Connoly a big Melbourne punter, 1000,000 to 3,000 on Connolly's horse to win the Metropolitan in 1927. There is a whole story about that bet, but Hackett took it, and the horse won.

    In the late 40's and 50's, Ken Ranger in Sydney, was a huge bookie who held 2,240,000 pounds in 1949 when they only raced 2 or maximum 3 times a week.

    When you reflect on the value of money back then, when a quid was a quid, and people earned three pounds ten a week and lived reasonably well on that, it's almost impossible to imagine that bookmakers were taking bets to lose 100,000 pounds when a nice  house cost  1,000 pounds.

    We will never ever see the likes of those bookmakers or punters again.

  • careycarey    6,368 posts
    me thinks there are lots of tall tales.
    to hold that money, there has to be somebody to stake it in the first instance.
    is there going to be a never ending stream of wealthy people placing these bets?
    the basic wage was nothing

    maybe you could tell me 27 pages about dominic beirne.
    never been a bigger bookie in my time
    that would be intersting

    Nevershowsurprise likes this post.

  • bookieloverbookielover    2,623 posts
    Carey, I really don’t give a flying root, whether or not you believe the posts that I write. I don’t see you or that other professional hater Nevershowsurprise, contributing anything to this thread, other than the usual sarcasm.

    Aside from what I was told by those who knew many of the individuals that I write about, and those punters whom I met myself over 50 years ago who were alive and operated from the 1920’s on, and told me personally about the big bets they had with bookies of the day, and the bookies who were still with us, who operated during those years, who confirmed with me that the bets were made and accepted, there is also a huge amount of information available on the Trove website which publishes newspaper  reports from yesteryear, about many of these larger than life bookmakers and punters and the actual bets that were recorded at the time.

    It is up to individuals if they want to believe those reports,  or not.

    For example, Ken Rangers turnover figure for that year by was made public by the Government of the day who decided to publish bookies turnover figures for the first time, and was printed in the newspapers of the day, with the reporter marvelling at how much turnover tax Ranger was paying.

    I met Dominic Bierne through Mark Read. Dom had, as I recall,  one bet with my dad at the Melbourne Cup Carnival in about 1988 and as I recall it lost. Not that that matters. I found him to be an absolute gentleman.

    On a pro rata basis, and comparing the value and purchasing power of a quid,  against the value of a dollar, in my opinion, the big bookies of yesteryear were far bigger than the Bierne’s, McHugh’s Harry Barrett, And Waterhouse’s. And I will throw in Terry Page for good measure.

    And I say that, accepting that Bierne was a huge bookie in his day, and the Packer-McHugh betting duel over the Easter Carnival in the the 80’s was massive, and  in and of itself, we haven’t seen the likes of it before or after. As McHugh has stated, it forced his retirement from the ring because he didn’t want to knock off all he’d worked for.

    However, it was a once in a lifetime duel, which hadn’t happened before to that extent, and  will never happen again. My point is that, for consistent long term big betting, and taking into account the value of money back then, to that in the 80’s when Bierne and McHugh were at their peak, that 80’s betting doesn’t really compare to the earlier period. 

    Of course, others may have a different opinion and that’s fine. 

    savethegame, BestWestern likes this post.

  • careycarey    6,368 posts
    The betting in the 1990's and 2000's  2010's would dwarf any in history, including any you care to mention.
    be that beirne, waterhouse, read, whoever.
    ysmael, packer, the lot.
    the difference being that it was not(and still is not) in the public eye.

    as for believing you, i could give a flying root!!! what you think, because as per normal you have completely misread.
    i was referring, as if you was just stating, what you have been told or read, not that you made them up.
    nevertheless it is mostly exaggerated, i have no doubt.

  • bookieloverbookielover    2,623 posts
    There is a famous betting duel which took place at Flemington in 1927. The newspapers of the day wrote about it, as did David Hickey, a Sydney racing writer in the 70's and 80's  in his book on famous punters and bookmakers. I have got it somewhere, but it's name escapes me. I am sure I have read references to it on here by those who have a copy.

    Now, before I relate the story. 

    I knew an old time bookie who operated from 1915 until 1950 called Jack Langley. Jack would have been at least 80 when I was first introduced to him at the Victorian Club in 1968. He was a rails bookmaker during what he called the golden era from 1920 until 1930 when the depression really hit Australia, and through the second world war years, when he said cash was king, and people were betting in 100 pound notes. Yes, we had a 100 pound note back then. 

    He told me, what my dad had told me, that a decent  house in Carlton North, where he happened to live at one time, and by decent, he meant with an inhouse dunny, cost around 300 pounds. 

    He added, that you could buy the same house for between 50 and 100 quid at the height of the depression from 1930 until 1933, as people could not meet their mortgage payments, effectively, gave the house back to the banks, and the banks were desperately trying to sell them off.

    Anyway, he said that on a 6 race program during the 20's, he would hold an average of 3,000 pounds a race.  That's around 18,000 pounds a meeting during the carnivals, and about 2,000 a race, 12,000 a day, on non major meeting days. That means, he was turning over on a big meeting, the equivalent of the cost of 60 houses. 

    He said that the economy had fully recovered from the property crash of the 1880's and 90's, and people had made fortunes through the first world war years and after. 

    Betting was big. he said, although he admitted that he was one of the smaller rails bookies, with Bob Janson who would take massive bets, being the biggest. he had ever seen.

    Records show that Jansen in 1930, laid Phar lap to lose 40,000 pounds including,according to a newspaper report at the time which quoted Jansen,  "an early bet when weights were issued four months before the race of 6,000/1000 and a bet on the course on the day of the race of 5,000/4000". And that's in the year when the depression hit. The horse started 8/11.

    Anyway, back to the story.

    In 1927, the biggest lady punter, and perhaps even one of the  the biggest punters in Australia at that time,, was a woman named Maude Vandenburg. The biggest bookie in Sydney was, as he was called, "gentleman Jim Hackett." 

    In those days, Melbourne's and Sydney's biggest bookies would go to Randwick or  Flemington, having been invited to field there by the race clubs to engender interest and excitement to the betting rings, and to ensure that the big punters of both cities would travel down or up, for the meetings.

    Hackett was fielding on the Cantala Handicap, at Flemington, a race still run today. A horse called Amounis was in the race. Amounis was to go on to fame by winning the Caulfield Cup in 1930 as part of the double with Phar lap, a sting developed and guided by big punter Eric Connolly, on behalf and with the permission of the owners, which ripped what estimates at the time said was between 200,000 and 300,000 pounds from the doubles bookies,on and off course, all around Australia. 

    However, not long before before he died, Eric told bookie Albert Smith a good friend of our family, that the amount was closer to 500,000. It sent a heap of bookies to the wall. 

    By the way, records at the time when Connolly died in 1944, revealed that he only left an estate of 6,000 pounds. Not bad money, but he had, like almost every big punter of any era, knocked of hundreds of thousands towards the end of his life. 

    A heavy smoker, he had heart trouble for many years, and Albert Smith told me, that this badly impaired his judgement and that he should have given the punt away years before he died. But, as my old man always said of the punt, it's a disease curable by death only.

    Back to the story. Maude had won a stack backing Amounis, and wasn't going to let it go that day. She went up to Hackett who was calling 7/2 Amounis, no betting boards till 1948, and said, "I'll take 7,000/2,000".
    Hackett immediately replied, "thank you, and you can have it again if you would like," Maude said, "I will, and for good measure, I will have another 7,000/2,000." The total of the bet, 21,000/6,000. 

    Using the price of that 300 pound house as our guide, the punter had invested the equivalent of 20 houses on the horse, while the bookie stood to lose the equivalent of 70 houses if the horse won, which it did.

    All the old time bookies whom I had the pleasure of meeting at the Victorian Club during settling days, and would love retelling the stories of the betting that took place in the 20's, during World war two when cash from the black market flooded the track, to the late 40's and 50's, would all use the house price comparison, to  make their point as to how big, and what value the betting was and had.

    I used to pay a penny for the Sun newspaper. It's now called the Herald Sun and costs, $2.20. That's one pound 2 shillings in the old. Blokes my age, over 70, know exactly how much one pound two shillings could buy you, in say 1960. My granny used to buy a chicken for 6 pence, that's 5 cents, at the Victoria Market.

    People can use whatever  formula you want, to compare the size of the betting in different eras.

    If the bet you are having with a bookie, is, let's say 2 million, which today can only just buy you a house in North Carlton, ( you'd probably have to spend another 200,000 grand renovating it) and 2 million on a horse would be considered a huge bet in this day and age, and, dare I mention it, in the last 30 years as well, and you compare that to the 6,000 pounds that Maude Vandenburg had on Amounis, and the 21,000 that Jim Hackett stood to lose in 1927, when the same house, on the same block of land cost 300 quid, then, again, in my opinion, there is absolutely no comparison between the value of the betting of yesteryear to any betting that happened in the last 30 years or today.

    As far as off the books betting goes,it's been going on for years. 

    Waterhouse, that's Bill, would take massive bets in his suite at the now gone Southern Cross Hotel in Melbourne before he went to the track. He was hated by Sir Eugene Gorman of the VRC, who felt he was taking money away from the local bookies betting at the track, so he got a germ of a bloke called Joe Metz who was betting with Bill off track to dob Bill in, with a guarantee that nothing would happen to Metz. This led to Bill being rubbed out and never being allowed to work in Melbourne until he came down to help Tom. 

    There is the 3 million lost in off track betting to a bookie by a young bloke a few years ago, Can't say more than that. I am friends with a Sydney punter who does all his betting and commission betting for others away from the track and the betting is big.

    None of it or what I hear of it, compares value wise with what used to be 100 years ago. No one is having the equivalent of 40 million on a horse, like Maude Vandenburg did, and no bookie will risk losing 140 million in a single bet like Hackett did.

    What's that expression? Comparisons are odious. 

    I may be wrong, my wife tells me I'm always wrong. 

    Be that as it may, I will always use the house price comparison as my template. I'll leave it to others who can use whatever comparison they see fit. 



  • savethegamesavethegame    2,788 posts
    B.L. read  did welchers accounted for about 4% of turnover ?. That Sol. Green saw the funny side.& knew every trick.
    Read a Tailor Maori Tom--- called all the creditors,said I need three years to square. Sol. Green said no, the others said yes.

    So Maori Tom  pulled Sol Green  aside said I will make you a preferential creditor, so he agreed.

    When everyone left he said.  Those mugs don't know that they aren't going to be paid.Maori Tom explained, and they won't know for three years.---- Being a preferential creditor--you know now.

    Same as when the clerk said theres no pockets in the trousers the tailor's gone mad. Sol same in the coat & vest, don't  want you to get your change mixed up with mine.
  • bookieloverbookielover    2,623 posts
    STG, the biggest issues for bookies in my dad's day were the turnover tax,and the credit punters who didn't settle. That latter issue was always a bookies worst nightmare.

    You could sue the punters, but magistrates, most of whom were punters themselves, had pity on the punter, and in one case when my father was owed 15,000 by a bloke, the magistrate allowed his proposal to pay my dad 20.00 a month. He made three payments and stopped and that was it.

    I reckon every bookie who ever worked, or is still working, is owed thousands by punters that the bookie allowed to bet with them on the nod.

    If we are going to be intellectually honest, it's the bookies own fault, and my old man never blamed anyone but himself. It has never been a rule of racing that bookies must grant credit to anyone. So they all did it of their own volition, most of the time, in an attempt to increase their turnover.

    I remember a fellow bookie who actually had borrowed three grand off dad during a race meeting at Flemington, when said bookie had run out of cash."You'll have it next Saturday" said the bookie. The bookie had a heart attack on the Tuesday, and passed away. Not only didn't dad ever get his three large, but the hat was passed around and dad put 100.00 in to help pay for the bookies funeral!

  • Piston_BrokePiston_Broke    2,047 posts
    The Bank Manager Peter Huxley  from Syd was a good read, what Waterhouse got out of Ysmael off the books was millions
Sign In or Register to comment.