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Gloucester Park Sale Proposal

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  • Ivorytrunkey86Ivorytrunkey86    204 posts
    Just on the training facility idea at Pinjarra,if that were to go ahead I reckon there would be a few hobby trainers straight back in the game with 1 or 2 horses,with land prices as they are it’s to hard for young people to buy and then have a team of horses.
  • BrownbreadBrownbread    58 posts
    Yes the museum is only for us old foggies who want to reminisce the young generation will have little interest in the past.

    As to selling and moving probs to pinjarra it will be the end of anyone going to the trots save the pensioners who go to GP because it’s cheaper than staying at home and they get a night out once a week. Both menangle and melton are a pain  to get to and from so hope we don’t go down that path.

    There used to be nothing better than the Melbourne races at Flemington then a quick cab ride to moonee valley trots on Saturday night with super facilities.

     sadly no more don’t know why they ever moved

    Rocket_Reign likes this post.

  • BrownbreadBrownbread    58 posts
    As to building a new track and tunnels under to allow centre course parking all these ideas are fanciful when we can’t even afford to fix the broken sliding door entry from the members(believe we had a quote for 2k six weeks ago) or clean the cobwebs from the windows or fix the blown track lights 

    Maybe cancel the 2k we spend on security guards every Friday night for a few weeks and we can divert these funds to areas that need attention

    LightningJake likes this post.

  • Cant_RefuseCant_Refuse    198 posts

    As to building a new track and tunnels under to allow centre course parking all these ideas are fanciful when we can’t even afford to fix the broken sliding door entry from the members(believe we had a quote for 2k six weeks ago) or clean the cobwebs from the windows or fix the blown track lights 


    Maybe cancel the 2k we spend on security guards every Friday night for a few weeks and we can divert these funds to areas that need attention

    no point spending money on fixing a door when it’s going to be bulldozed
  • BrownbreadBrownbread    58 posts
    It won’t be bulldozed for at least 12 to 18 months as no moving out until the new facility is built so think we can justify fixing the door
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts

    Me thinks it’s a good idea the development and appears no other real option 

    They can’t maintain the place and no matter what you build patrons will never return apart from when the new stand/theatre opens. At least it’s more accessible for 7 day trading as on the west side so will be handy when the football is on, hope they put a pub with state of the art tab in there with decent screens to watch sport and racing on.
    Forget spending $ on a harness museum as will just be a cash drain to run it hope they don’t think it will attract tourist buses e.g.the waca museum.
    As to the 800m track at least it promotes some action compared to larger tracks that are boring e.g menangle melton etc etc
    Your last sentence  - quote " As to the 800m track at least it promotes some action compared to larger tracks that are boring eg Menangle - melton etc "

    Ok lets analyse that - re Menangle - i agree totally with you - but that track is exceptionally big 1400 met - far too big - single file rubbish - id love that track cut back to 1000 metres 

    Having lived in Sydney for many years - i wish - when they sold HP - as it was rumoured for many years - they were going to build a trotting track inside Canterbury Park gallops track - and if they had of i think it would have been sensational - been to Canterbury - close to the action - and plenty of grassed area etc - and they might have even raced the Syd way of going - a bit of variety - like the old Richmond grass track and Wyong Trots use to race the Syd way 

    Iistead they went to Mangle Park ( thats what they use to call it back in the day - hah ) - the train line to no where 

    However i totally disagree with you - re the 800 m track at least promotes some action - what action is that - there is absolutely none 

    The sectionals say it all - and last Frid night is typical of a GP meeting - the 1st half of the last mile - for all the 2100 metre mobile races 

    62.3 - 62-64-59.2- 58- 62.8- 62.9 -59.3

    WA sectionals on a metropolitan track are the slowest sectionals in any state in AUST - by a long way - You say action - there is blooody none - the slow sectionals show that - there are no mid race moves - serious cracks for the lead midrace - absolutely none 

    You look over East - and it so much more competive the racing - everyone is fair game - i can remember the Douglass Bros and Andy Gath coming off the track after a race at Geel - hurling abuse at each other - they have got competitive racing over their 

    WA - as the sectionals highlight - they get gifted the lead - they walk in front - there are no midrace moves - they dash home in about 55-56 - they start $1.20- $1.40 - thousands of dollars are put on them - i wouldnt call it a racket - but it is very close to being a racket 

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    100% Marko but it is not the track.
    GP in the 80s 90s was one of the most competitive/aggressive tracks in Aust from a driving perspective. I know that for fact having experienced it and spoken to interstate drivers visiting. The dominance of two stables over the past 15 years has simply knocked the stuffing out of competing trainers, drivers and owners.
    Hand up and run second, or stick to the inside and hope for a run.
    I can put 3 drives up here that I have backed in the past week who refused or didn’t know how to work their way off the fence. These were no amateur drivers either, one drive should have got 28 days, the other arguably the same.
    Unfortunately majority of punters are happy to back $1.60 favourites (or so where told) so GP apparently is the “premier” track in Aust.
    The driving styles have simply followed with no checking.

    Gilgamesh, savethegame, LightningJake likes this post.

  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    841 posts
    I’m not sure why people think that having a 1000 metre track will stop these horses leading and winning most that won on Friday just gone still win on a 1000 metre track
  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts

    I’m not sure why people think that having a 1000 metre track will stop these horses leading and winning most that won on Friday just gone still win on a 1000 metre track

    Youve nearly hit the nail on the head - but i have got some sort of Engineering background 

    However i do think 1000 metres well cambered  is the sweet spot for trotting - you dont want it any bigger 

    Re your point - 800 metres - they have got no hope given the sectionals - coming behind - 1000 metre i agree they have still got their work cut out coming from behind - but they have got some chance 

    The other 2 advantages of a 1000 metre track -horses drawn wide on the track can have a serious crack for the lead at the start - because the 1st turn doesnt come up as quick - and same scenario if they want to have a midrace crack for the lead etc

    Bracken Skys race is a great example $1.55  watch the last 100-200 metres  going up and down on the one spot - and on a proper 1000 metre track that horse would have run closer to last than 1st - and its starting price on a proper track would have been about $15 even from gate 1


    LightningJake likes this post.

  • Ivorytrunkey86Ivorytrunkey86    204 posts
    If everything is measured by turnover then unfortunately how the track plays is what the big punters want they know there maps and are happy to smash the short favourites and carry on,I’m not a huge punter so I prefer having a small bet on something at odds but I accept the fact that the big punters make the industry go around,I don’t like it but that’s how it is,I’m not fully across the GP upgrade but there damned for not trying something and damned for trying something,if it’s restaurants and new bars to get people there they might aswell try cause at the minute if your around my age (36) and weren’t born into the sport your not interested in going to watch horses go around in circles when you can watch on your couch.

    Rocket_Reign likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    If it was 1000 mtr track would those $1.60 favs be $1.80 or $2
    They would still be favourite and if a bigger track makes no difference then the “assumed” legion of short priced punters might get a bigger return.
  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    841 posts

    If it was 1000 mtr track would those $1.60 favs be $1.80 or $2
    They would still be favourite and if a bigger track makes no difference then the “assumed” legion of short priced punters might get a bigger return.




    Doubt it we have 2x 1000m tracks now and I get no bigger return on those than GP
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    They are not our premier track though.

    Gilgamesh, Betonme likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    7,630 posts

     

    100% Marko but it is not the track.
    GP in the 80s 90s was one of the most competitive/aggressive tracks in Aust from a driving perspective. I know that for fact having experienced it and spoken to interstate drivers visiting. The dominance of two stables over the past 15 years has simply knocked the stuffing out of competing trainers, drivers and owners.
    Hand up and run second, or stick to the inside and hope for a run.
    I can put 3 drives up here that I have backed in the past week who refused or didn’t know how to work their way off the fence. These were no amateur drivers either, one drive should have got 28 days, the other arguably the same.
    Unfortunately majority of punters are happy to back $1.60 favourites (or so where told) so GP apparently is the “premier” track in Aust.
    The driving styles have simply followed with no checking.

    Freo, you mention the two dominant stables, probably more than two.....and there is little doubt they have a profound influence on the racing. With their buying power, they dominate when they astutely buy lowly graded horses from NZ and  they zoom through the grades en masse. And as an owner of scrubbers, we definitely check the noms each meeting and go, nuh, not a chance, we will scratch or try and find something easier or whatever..... and having multiple runners in RBD races (and small fields), there  is every chance one of their stars will draw a gate and it's game over, GSL1 and the spectacle is dead boring unless you have $10k on the leader.

    But dominant stables are not a new thing. Chose any era and there has always been powerhouse owners/trainer combos......Stratton, Charleson, Johnson, Smith and Sweetapple, Palmer, Roberts, Annear, Lombardo and so on. But the current situation is highlighted by and revolves around the reduction in opposition.
    In 1980, possibly at the peak of the "Roy Annear" era with Kersley, Coulson, Woodworth and Retzlaff steering home winner after winner for the Red, White "V" organisation, the WA figures were 925 registered drivers, 1142 registered trainers, 208 registered sires, 1377 foalings,1158 namings and just 64 NZ imports.  The industry was booming.
    In 2021, we have just 269 drivers, 422 trainers, 19 sires, 424 foalings (the NATIONAL foaling was just 2838 (down from 13,658), just 296 namings but a highly comparable 54 NZ imports. So, the competition for the quality imported NZ horses has drastically reduced based on numbers alone. No owner has done anything wrong here but those declining numbers over the past 4 decades has served total domination to them on a platter. The downward trend in numbers in WA has grown a leg in the last decade and especially the last few years since the new handicapping system, designed to work on a large racing population numbers, and operating in a singular jurisdiction with a horse population that is (I am informed anecdotally)  declining to somewhere around a 1000, has come into play causing a large migration out of the industry. Like all enterprises, management must own responsibility for these numbers and for the industry falling off a cliff.

    Yes, the 800m track and the RBD allowing the best horse to get the best barrier is immensely popular with the "big" punters chasing a small but almost assured return on a big outlay and they will argue like blazes to retain their position, as will the very big owners, why wouldn't they? Multiple quality runners, small fields, a 6 horse FFA for $30k or a 5 horse Conditioned Race for $24k, RBD......it is a great situation for them. But the small owner or breeder just walks away, they can't escape the juggernaut no matter where they take their horses,  the small punter cries "boat race" or some other conspiracy theory, and heads off to take a mystery trifecta on the dogs and that is where we are at. Large holdings with corporate bookies mean diddly squat to the once large base of TAB punters and nowadays, they don't attend and they don't bet. They, rightly or wrongly, perceive the product to be uncompetitive and boring, and building a pavilion or repurposing an existing heritage building into a museum (which I would really like but understand that few others would) by selling the family silver for an undisclosed amount on some fluffy premise based around artists impressions to produce an identical product on the same track under the same business model will change nothing in my opinion. But, everyone will have a view or an opinion and many will disagree, that's fine, I think it is going to happen regardless albeit timelines of 2024 seem very optimistic......we will just have to wait and see, or in my case, wait for my members voting package to arrive.
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    You are right JayJay regenerating GP will not change a thing.
    It is one of the most narrow minded decisions I have seen in the history of pacing in WA.
    Absolutely no consideration given to the future of the industry and its participants as a whole.

    savethegame, LightningJake likes this post.

  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,719 posts

    You are right JayJay regenerating GP will not change a thing.
    It is one of the most narrow minded decisions I have seen in the history of pacing in WA.
    Absolutely no consideration given to the future of the industry and its participants as a whole.




    Haven't you heard the rhetoric, this will future proof the industry, for 30yrs......

    Not sure what we are meant to sell then.

    savethegame, curmudgeon, LightningJake likes this post.

  • MarkovinaMarkovina    2,890 posts
    Seems crazy to knock all these buildings down - while keeping the same track size in place - what a waste of time 

    The 3 preferred options would be

    (1) GP- 1000 metre track 

    (2) If their not prepared to do that - put the for sale sign up and get top dollar for the whole site . Put lights in at Pinjarra - and make it a state of art training facility - like Vic have done at Shepparton and Charlton - with on course boxes for select trainers - and thats why Ash Markham is at Charlton on course - because he has got a number of boxes their - plus hes a farrier . Also with the 24 mil RWWA are putting up - you spend some of it at Pinjarra so the training facilities are 1st class -like Menangle - re the water - walker machine and stuff like that .  You dont spend it - or waste it - spending it on  some Luna Park  theme park - or more like lunatic park at East Perth 

    If Pinjarra for some bizarre reason isnt an option - then make enquiries - or feasability - about having a trotting track inside Ascot racecourse ( alah Moonee Valley ) .Went many times to Ascot years ago - quite beautiful out their - the grandstands - the grassed areas - it was just an absolute pleasure to be their 

    Dont run the ruler over Belmont racecourse tho - i went their 2 twice - it was winter - but ive never been to a more depressing place than Belmont racetrack - what an absolute dump

    LightningJake likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    7,630 posts
    1970: 547 drivers    318 trainers    114 sires      538 foals      564 namings    15 NZ imports

    1980: 925 drivers   1142 trainers   208 sires      1377 foals    1158 namings   64 NZ imports

    1990: 730 drivers   1030 trainers   106 sires      946 foals       875 namings   70 NZ imports

    2000: 587 drivers   838 trainers     59 sires        660 foals       583 namings    49 NZ imports

    2010: 476 drivers   669 trainers     43 sires        510 foals       437 namings    127 NZ imports
     
    2020: 296 drivers   422 trainers     19 sires        424 foals       296 namings     54 NZ imports

    *Clearly AI approval for frozen and fresh semen has dramatically affected sire numbers.
  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    Markovina said:

    Seems crazy to knock all these buildings down - while keeping the same track size in place - what a waste of time 


    The 3 preferred options would be

    (1) GP- 1000 metre track 

    (2) If their not prepared to do that - put the for sale sign up and get top dollar for the whole site . Put lights in at Pinjarra - and make it a state of art training facility - like Vic have done at Shepparton and Charlton - with on course boxes for select trainers - and thats why Ash Markham is at Charlton on course - because he has got a number of boxes their - plus hes a farrier . Also with the 24 mil RWWA are putting up - you spend some of it at Pinjarra so the training facilities are 1st class -like Menangle - re the water - walker machine and stuff like that .  You dont spend it - or waste it - spending it on  some Luna Park  theme park - or more like lunatic park at East Perth 

    If Pinjarra for some bizarre reason isnt an option - then make enquiries - or feasability - about having a trotting track inside Ascot racecourse ( alah Moonee Valley ) .Went many times to Ascot years ago - quite beautiful out their - the grandstands - the grassed areas - it was just an absolute pleasure to be their 

    Dont run the ruler over Belmont racecourse tho - i went their 2 twice - it was winter - but ive never been to a more depressing place than Belmont racetrack - what an absolute dump
    Pinjarra is an absolute no brainer, 100% Marko set it up as a major training centre and attract some new training blood into the industry.
    Major growth corridor on top of that.
    Has anyone actually done a study on what the stakes would be based on selling GP or generating ongoing income from it.
    For fu#ks sake turn it into the worlds biggest car park and run Busses out of it for Perth CBD.
    Would rather see that that than a new stand and night stalls.

    Markovina, LightningJake likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts
    JayJay said:

    1970: 547 drivers    318 trainers    114 sires      538 foals      564 namings    15 NZ imports

    1980: 925 drivers   1142 trainers   208 sires      1377 foals    1158 namings   64 NZ imports

    1990: 730 drivers   1030 trainers   106 sires      946 foals       875 namings   70 NZ imports

    2000: 587 drivers   838 trainers     59 sires        660 foals       583 namings    49 NZ imports

    2010: 476 drivers   669 trainers     43 sires        510 foals       437 namings    127 NZ imports
     
    2020: 296 drivers   422 trainers     19 sires        424 foals       296 namings     54 NZ imports

    *Clearly AI approval for frozen and fresh semen has dramatically affected sire numbers.
    Those figures 2010-20 JayJay are pretty alarming.
    Not surprising though.
    NZ imports 2010 127 so racing for next 5-8 yrs on average.
    By 2020 nearly 250 trainers left the industry.
    Geez I must have been mad when I responded to a RWWA survey in 2010 begging them to do something about the imports.
    The response from RWWA I don’t know because I didn’t get one.
    I’m sure all that money sucked out of the industry in WA was well spent in NZ.
    127 x 50.0 ave = 6.3 million.

    curmudgeon, LightningJake likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    7,630 posts
    Foal numbers have fallen even less but quantity does not always equate to quality and quality is now at the forefront of commercial sales. But we need a core to maintain the racing population.

    Gilgamesh, LightningJake likes this post.

  • freodockersfreodockers    2,667 posts

    JayJay said:

    1970: 547 drivers    318 trainers    114 sires      538 foals      564 namings    15 NZ imports

    1980: 925 drivers   1142 trainers   208 sires      1377 foals    1158 namings   64 NZ imports

    1990: 730 drivers   1030 trainers   106 sires      946 foals       875 namings   70 NZ imports

    2000: 587 drivers   838 trainers     59 sires        660 foals       583 namings    49 NZ imports

    2010: 476 drivers   669 trainers     43 sires        510 foals       437 namings    127 NZ imports
     
    2020: 296 drivers   422 trainers     19 sires        424 foals       296 namings     54 NZ imports

    *Clearly AI approval for frozen and fresh semen has dramatically affected sire numbers.
    Those figures 2010-20 JayJay are pretty alarming.
    Not surprising though.
    NZ imports 2010 127 so racing for next 5-8 yrs on average.
    By 2020 nearly 250 trainers left the industry.
    Geez I must have been mad when I responded to a RWWA survey in 2010 begging them to do something about the imports.
    The response from RWWA I don’t know because I didn’t get one.
    I’m sure all that money sucked out of the industry in WA was well spent in NZ.
    127 x 50.0 ave = 6.3 million.
    Would be interested to see stake earnings for Bond & Hall 2010 to 2018 JayJay.
  • JayJayJayJay    7,630 posts
    Stake earning figures for trainers are freely accessible on HRA website but it is not my station to post any individual figures. That is their business but all they are doing is operating within the prevailing system, rules and regulations as they stood/stand.

    freodockers, jum, LightningJake likes this post.

  • PictureSon1973PictureSon1973    138 posts
    I think that irregardless of track location or size as a industry we need to discuss what we want .
    Do we require the on course experience  ( is it truely viable economically ) or for reasons of economics are we
    going to become a Gaming / TV experience that is a question that we really need hard to think
    about .
    If it’s on course / dining experience GP is going to need to be coming up with something
    that is truely innovative as after 2 years the novelty will wear of.
    I keep harping on about it but G.P is a Golden Goose location wise prime real estate,
    Why can’t it be under the ownership of the WATA while receiving a Income stream
    surely a Hotel / Serviced Apartment organisation would like to be involved being in
    a picturesque location and walking distance to the CBD,STATIUM,CASINO . 
    Will early morning track work still be allowed on Saturday mornings?

    LightningJake likes this post.

  • savethegamesavethegame    2,788 posts
    edited August 2022
    See the Artist impression on Harnesslink of new development grandstand---G.M.TC. will lose the mantle of  the worst grandstand in  W.A.----Kalgoorlie had no other option. the sun would get you ,& if  rained you had to grab the 1x1 on another patron.for any hope.

    See the article mentions this allows  further improvements to animal welfare hows that come about? Surely the Senior V.P. had to be excused when it was tabled with conflict of interest regards  his son a director.
     Someone may know the new grandstand will be just a shell and G.P have to fitted  it out at there   cost?
    Have always been against the sale of G.P. But if  has to happen all or nothing. 

    LightningJake likes this post.

  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    841 posts

    See the Artist impression on Harnesslink of new development grandstand---G.M.TC. will lose the mantle of  the worst grandstand in  W.A.----Kalgoorlie had no other option. the sun would get you ,& if  rained you had to grab the 1x1 on another patron.for any hope.


    See the article mentions this allows  further improvements to animal welfare hows that come about? Surely the Senior V.P. had to be excused when it was tabled with conflict of interest regards  his son a director.
     Someone may know the new grandstand will be just a shell and G.P have to fitted  it out at there   cost?
    Have always been against the sale of G.P. But if  has to happen all or nothing. 



    This was discussed by Radley on Matt’s show this morning One Out One Back worth a listen

    LightningJake likes this post.

  • JayJayJayJay    7,630 posts
    Due diligence would demand that solar declination experts have been commissioned to provide expert advice on the elevation of the sun (which will be included in the members voting package), in conjunction with projected race times for the December/January period of the longest days of summer. All Radley mentioned were the casual observations of two ex officials and their experience from back straight stewards towers, valuable insights no doubt.

    I am also keen to read about the frequently referred to "extra foot traffic".Doubtless, demographic studies and surveys have been undertaken to establish the confidence with which their attendance is anticipated.

    Gilgamesh likes this post.

  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    A photograph of the Sun taken at the same time every day will yield the visual pattern seen here,... [+] known as an analemma. The pinched, figure-8-like shape is due to the varying factors of the Earth's orbit in space.
  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    edited August 2022
    The above is a picture of the sun's movement taken from the same spot over a period of a year. It is not hard to conclude that if you are looking into it then for significant periods of the year at dusk it's trajectory toward the horizon will lead to image distortion ala Bunbury & Pinjarra.
    Unfortunately GP despite being the centre of the universe does not have the ability to alter the route of celestial bodies.

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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    4,719 posts
    edited August 2022

    See the Artist impression on Harnesslink of new development grandstand---G.M.TC. will lose the mantle of  the worst grandstand in  W.A.----Kalgoorlie had no other option. the sun would get you ,& if  rained you had to grab the 1x1 on another patron.for any hope.


    See the article mentions this allows  further improvements to animal welfare hows that come about? Surely the Senior V.P. had to be excused when it was tabled with conflict of interest regards  his son a director.
     Someone may know the new grandstand will be just a shell and G.P have to fitted  it out at there   cost?
    Have always been against the sale of G.P. But if  has to happen all or nothing. 



    This was discussed by Radley on Matt’s show this morning One Out One Back worth a listen



    Everything he said sounds great but that's just it, make a decision based on what someone else is telling you. Pretty sure plenty or people have bought a lemon because they were told it was an orange. Would you buy a horse from a bloke that you know is broke just because he repeatedly told you it was fast???

    If the Sun is such a minor issue then why isn't vision being provided to members?

    If the deal is so good financially then why isnt the value of land being traded for what is received being provided.

    So far the only figures provided are the 20 something million being provided by RWWA and the 15mil levy being removed by the government.

    Now the figures of what the developer are stumping up might be in the members info but we are now 1 week in to the 8 week voting period and that info is yet to be dispensed let alone received.

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