WA Pacing Cup

Markovina · November 2023

My comments re last night - having just watched all the replays

1st of all - wasnt it utterly fantastic to see a decent crowd on course - on the lawned area - pity say the club couldnt give the patrons a small questionaire - ok it is the Pacing Cup - but what could we do to get you back on a semi regular basis - especially when the weather is nice

I am delighted for Ray Williams ( his son Grant was a champion driver by the way ) - i have allways liked Ray - he is a bit similar to Russell Roberts - in that he doesnt tolerate fools - and also Raymond has got that beautiful little abrasive streak in him - which i love in any person

Re the Magnificent Storm - full credit to it - it utterly destroyed that field - it was head and shoulders the best horse in that race . I was critical of its 2 runs in Qld because it was driven superbly both times . However id like to see it go over East again - because it might not have settled in in Qld - it might not have been quite right . So id like it go for an Inters perhaps - because it is a talented horse and easily the best WA Pacer at present

But what Magnificent Storm did in the Pacing Cup - was beat up - severley beat up a mob of 2nd raters . And those opposing horses last night - well compared to the real good ones - the real top liners - like say Preaux Chavilier - then in comparism horses like Diego - Jumping Jack Mac and Loyalist - they are 2nd rate rubbish horses

So full credit to Magnificent Storm and Ray Williams - and as for any whingers re last nights result - all i can say is Winners are Grinners and Losers can please themselves

Chariotsonfire · November 2023

Glen Moore retweeting every tweet arguing that the protest should have been upheld.

Markovina · November 2023

Chariotsonfire said:
Glen Moore retweeting every tweet arguing that the protest should have been upheld.

Who is Glen Moore - never heard of him

Where does he fit into the Jigsaw puzzle

Chariotsonfire · November 2023

Big owner of Hall horses and media tipster on the Friday preview.

Gilgamesh · November 2023

Has become very hard to listen to on the preview

freodockers · November 2023

Chariotsonfire said:
Glen Moore retweeting every tweet arguing that the protest should have been upheld.

Yep and I’m sure he’s an expert on protests as well.
Can someone ask him when was the last time a protest was upheld because someone took someone else’s position in a race as a result of interference.
It happens all the time but protests are never ever ever upheld on that basis. They are decided on the level of interference and the winning margin.

Chariotsonfire · November 2023

Now suggesting that the protest should be reopened and reviewed like the 2021 Tasmanian Pacing Championship.

freodockers · November 2023

Chariotsonfire said:
Now suggesting that the protest should be reopened and reviewed like the 2021 Tasmanian Pacing Championship.</blockquote

Couldn’t see that coming, although I would have thought an appeal. What a bunch of sooks, 12 not enough ??

Vincent_vega · November 2023

I dont think the 2nd horse would have won and the protest result was correct, but the interference was despicable. 6 weeks only? Its actually worth knocking over your opposition if the punishments are that flimsy.

JayJay · November 2023

Chariotsonfire said:
Now suggesting that the protest should be reopened and reviewed like the 2021 Tasmanian Pacing Championship.

Still waiting for the 2015 WA Pacing Cup Inquiry to be reopened......as is David Hercules.

freodockers · November 2023

JayJay said:

Chariotsonfire said:
Now suggesting that the protest should be reopened and reviewed like the 2021 Tasmanian Pacing Championship.
Still waiting for the 2015 WA Pacing Cup Inquiry to be reopened......as is David Hercules.

That’s why I said 12 JJ not 13 but since you bought it up here’s one for DH.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P4iXOX1h4b8

JayJay · November 2023

Certain very unbiased and non aligned uncompromised commentators calling for the relegation rule, which already exists within the rules, to be utilised in this case, an immediate disqualification for any horse that causes interference.

I think the term is opening a "can of worms".

A young two year old plays up a little at the start causing some other runners to become stirred up and heated and they run below expectations as a result.
A standing start runner swings slightly sideways at the start causing a minor check.
A horse wins a very narrow photo finish result but the driver of the 2nd horse is found guilty of a whip breach and is fined.
A horse races inside a marker peg due to it hanging slightly.
A driver extends his body beyond the confines of the cart causing slight impedance to the following runner.
A runner hangs under pressure in the straight providing an advantageous inside run for the horse behind it.
A horse is not in position by the candy pole, anticipates the start and gets a flyer that is not afforded to other runners who are then, by definition, disadvantaged by 5 or 6 metres and lose their anticipated pre race position.

Are these all cases of instant disqualification or relegation of a few spots?

With the European trotters, it is cut and dried, go off stride and its all over red rover

But I don't think it is as simple as some are suggesting. Be careful what you wish for.

Just asking for a friend from the Eastern States.

Rocket_Reign · November 2023

JayJay said:
Certain very unbiased and non aligned uncompromised commentators calling for the relegation rule, which already exists within the rules, to be utilised in this case, an immediate disqualification for any horse that causes interference.
I think the term is opening a "can of worms".
A young two year old plays up a little at the start causing some other runners to become stirred up and heated and they run below expectations as a result.
A standing start runner swings slightly sideways at the start causing a minor check.
A horse wins a very narrow photo finish result but the driver of the 2nd horse is found guilty of a whip breach and is fined.
A horse races inside a marker peg due to it hanging slightly.
A driver extends his body beyond the confines of the cart causing slight impedance to the following runner.
A runner hangs under pressure in the straight providing an advantageous inside run for the horse behind it.
A horse is not in position by the candy pole, anticipates the start and gets a flyer that is not afforded to other runners who are then, by definition, disadvantaged by 5 or 6 metres and lose their anticipated pre race position.
Are these all cases of instant disqualification or relegation of a few spots?

With the European trotters, it is cut and dried, go off stride and its all over red rover
But I don't think it is as simple as some are suggesting. Be careful what you wish for.

Just asking for a friend from the Eastern States.

Relegation rule is in play in NZ for interference only and works well.

JayJay · November 2023

A case for relegation then??

https://www-harness-org-au.akamaized.net/wa/GPM15092310.mp4

Or maybe not.

freodockers · November 2023

It amazes me with all this talk of protests, relegation rule etc due to interference or A Dec driving unfairly.
Can someone tell me what Diego was doing at the start ???
That is ultimately is why what happened,, happened.
That sort of driving particularly in big races with certain stables having multiple runners has gone unchecked for too long.
Diego was there for one reason only at the start and I reckon some stables/drivers may have had enough.

Ivorytrunkey86 · November 2023

So Diego didn’t lead and win it last year?
Take out the fact it’s the halls who for whatever reason cop it for being successful,JJM was chopped in half because Aidan knew if he didn’t lead it couldn’t win,he also knew like we all do if you knock one over your just going to get time and not lose the race.I think this particular case where it’s blatant that you’ve just chopped the legs to get across is a perfect example for the relegation rule. Yep in the past other drivers have done it aswell but on the big stage for big money it was magnified.

Markovina · November 2023

No fan of the Relegation rule whatsoever - it has never worked in Aust and that is fact- and it never will

And when it was in place stupid things were happening at peoples discretion - like horses going from 1st to 10th or anywhere to anywhere - and Punters absolutely hated it - thats why it got the aarse

The best horse won Frid night thats the bottom line

When i watched the race the 1st time - and subsequent replays backed this up - i thought S McDonald eased - and having the benefit of the replay - when he gets to the Team Bond Sign - he definitely stops driving for a couple of strides - as in im conceding the lead ive had enough - if he had have of kept driving it hard at that point he may have kept the lead

But it wouldnt have done it any good - it would have folded badly - because it is just a horse - it had the world perfect sit and was utterly pathetic in the home straight - beaten 13 metres and they only came home in 28.6 - so has it broken 30 seconds . It was going up and down in the one spot - and the only reason it clung onto 2nd was the tiny GP straight

freodockers · November 2023

Ivorytrunkey86 said:
So Diego didn’t lead and win it last year?
Take out the fact it’s the halls who for whatever reason cop it for being successful,JJM was chopped in half because Aidan knew if he didn’t lead it couldn’t win,he also knew like we all do if you knock one over your just going to get time and not lose the race.I think this particular case where it’s blatant that you’ve just chopped the legs to get across is a perfect example for the relegation rule. Yep in the past other drivers have done it aswell but on the big stage for big money it was magnified.

Diego was never ever going to lead.
Stable made it pretty clear before and after the race they want JJM in front.
I said stables not stable, so not just picking on Halls.

Ivorytrunkey86 · November 2023

The best horse may of won marko and best of luck to them but that’s not the bottom line,the bottom line is a horse was knocked over illegally to get to the lead,as for Stewie stopping driving his horse I’d imagine for a few strides he was preparing to hit the track.no issue with the storm or the connections and I have no issue with Aiden I get along with him well,but as someone who can tell you first hand after a bad fall 13 years ago the sooner this sort of driving is stamped out the better and if you know you’ll get relegated JJM doesn’t get cleaned up.didn’t mike reed lose a horse to being knocked over not to long ago?

JayJay · November 2023

Shandale came down in the straight and flipped(2018) and SJS came out after Tommy Be Good came off the inside ...driver was A. Decampo, he copped a 24 day suspension. From memory, the interference was far more serious than the Pacing Cup, literally got knocked over as opposed to losing 5 metres after breaking/ racing roughly.

If there was to be a case for relegation, then Tommy Be Good would be a standout. Again, from memory Shandale succumbed to infection from wounds on his knees but will stand corrected.

Rocket_Reign · November 2023

JayJay said:
A case for relegation then??

https://www-harness-org-au.akamaized.net/wa/GPM15092310.mp4

Or maybe not.

Don’t remember if he got time or not, if yes and he’s guilty of interference then yes why wouldn’t it be a case for relegation? If no and it was a racing incident then no it wouldn’t. Probably not that hard to figure out the difference

Markovina · November 2023

i have only just got around to reading Saturdays West Australian - thats what a rainy Sunday afternoon make you do

It actually starts on the back page - some big statements from Hall Snr - 2 paragraphs

" Ive been in the game 55 years ive won plenty of Pacing Cups ,nobody wants to see me win another one i know that " Hall told stewards

Thats real chip on the shoulder stuff - like i want to see him win another WA Pacing Cup - ideally with a WA bred horse

Now the 2nd paragraph - he has really taken the baseball bat out " But he knocked us down deliberately and thats the worst interference ive ever seen in a race like this "

JayJay · November 2023

The case of Bully's Delight (Rhys Nicholson) being relegated in the Tasmanian Cup on appeal is being cited as evidence for an overturn of the protest and the application of the relegation rule, which importantly in rule 66 includes the word "may. "A horse MAY be relegated etc.

Ray Murrihy conducted the appeal in the Bully's delight case after the protest on the night was dismissed and relegated the winner (Bully's Delight) to 14th place after issues of hocking and severe abuse of the whip rule was identified along with shifting out. He stated the following:

"“In my view, had it not been for the whip, had it not been for the
hocking, Bullys Delight wouldn’t have finished in front of the
(subsequently) first and second placed horses.”

"In handing down his verdict yesterday, Murrihy didn’t hold back,
describing Nicholson’s actions as “grievous violations of the rules and
were so far outside what is permitted in the conduct of harness racing
that they’d be viewed as an affront by a fair-minded person.”

I am not taking any particular position here but I believe the two cases are quite different. I think that the information being bandied about needs to be accurate and truthful and not selective. The term "knocked down" , a colloquialism commonly applied for race interference, needs to be applied very carefully and not emotively. There was a "knockdown" in the Shandale case with terrible consequences, there wasn't a "knockdown" in the Cup although there well could have been.

freodockers · November 2023

“Well could have been” but there wasn’t.
You can only act on facts ie hocking and whip use outside of rules in the case of Tasmania race.
This race was contact of cart wheel to off foreleg resulting in the horse racing roughly and losing ground.
Mag Storm won running away by just under 12.7 mtrs. JJM had had enough and was going up and down in one spot despite having leaders back.
In other words any reasonable minded steward would conclude Mag Storm could have won it from outside JJM.

Rocket_Reign · November 2023

freodockers said:
“Well could have been” but there wasn’t.
You can only act on facts ie hocking and whip use outside of rules in the case of Tasmania race.
This race was contact of cart wheel to off foreleg resulting in the horse racing roughly and losing ground.
Mag Storm won running away by just under 12.7 mtrs. JJM had had enough and was going up and down in one spot despite having leaders back.
In other words any reasonable minded steward would conclude Mag Storm could have won it from outside JJM.

Not many win or run to their full potential after being knocked down like that, hard to regather momentum etc not to mention i presume it hurts so that possibly slows them down aswell

Rocket_Reign · November 2023

Rocket_Reign said:

freodockers said:
“Well could have been” but there wasn’t.
You can only act on facts ie hocking and whip use outside of rules in the case of Tasmania race.
This race was contact of cart wheel to off foreleg resulting in the horse racing roughly and losing ground.
Mag Storm won running away by just under 12.7 mtrs. JJM had had enough and was going up and down in one spot despite having leaders back.
In other words any reasonable minded steward would conclude Mag Storm could have won it from outside JJM.

Not many win or run to their full potential after being knocked down like that, hard to regather momentum etc not to mention i presume it hurts so that possibly slows them down aswell

I also don’t agree that he clearly just wins outside it because 90% of my stable goes 10 lengths better on the rail and probably not just my stable most pacers in general

freodockers · November 2023

Could have, would have the stewards can’t act on maybe’s.
Mag Storm won by 13 mtrs, it would take a very good argument to overturn. Copping a check 2100 mtrs earlier isn’t enough to justify in my opinion.

JayJay · November 2023

Wildwest severely checked Mighty Conqueror in the 2022 Cup, knocking him completely off stride and inside the pegs up the straight. Driver was suspended for 4 weeks as a result but heard zero about the relegation rule at the time from some who are now keen for it's retrospective application per favor JJMac. I think consistency of argument from some of the Twitter proponents is sadly lacking.

Rocket_Reign · November 2023

freodockers said:
Could have, would have the stewards can’t act on maybe’s.
Mag Storm won by 13 mtrs, it would take a very good argument to overturn. Copping a check 2100 mtrs earlier isn’t enough to justify in my opinion.

Yeah I agree, happy to see Storm win it he deserved it he’s a top horse and for Ray to win it was great, just puts a slight dampener on it is all

Ivorytrunkey86 · November 2023

Mighty conquerer was gone wasn’t going to run a place anyway so the relegation rule doesn’t work for that instance,should of been a longer suspension tho as all of them should be in big races.

G'day Punter!

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