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Ratings overhaul

West Australian Racing

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  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    if someone..in fact anyone... wants proof that the system is in need of a overhaul follow the below scenario.....maybe someone out here can explain it to me..Where's carey when you need him.

    we have 3yr old maiden..
    first run gets third in a 3yr old maiden in the bush, rated 53..Okay it ran a place can live with that
    second run it gets 9th of 13 in a 3yr old maiden it gets elevated to 56..WTF..the 6 start maiden that won the race didn't get a point, but for coming 9th we get 3!!!!???????

    Can someone please explain that. I realise there will be an explanation but i haven't seen it before - it hasn't happened to me....So can whoever it has happened to before, post on here for my continued education

    much appreciated
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  • TheDivaTheDiva    13,248 posts
    must be a mistake...ring them.
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  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    glad someone else doesn't think it is right....and you know the race I'm talking about ;)
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  • thefalconthefalcon    20,505 posts
    so thats the culprit? :-\"
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  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    I'd gather the 53 was the mistake, and they have corrected
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  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    arghhh, so she should have been rated 56 for her third???
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  • TheDivaTheDiva    13,248 posts
    i can explain why culprit never received a point.....
    we called and queried why culprit had gone up 4 points without winning a race (2 points for each second in town).
    It was explained that he went up because he had performed well in town. so he was being rated on potential. They also said that if he went to a maiden, they would "expect him to win" therefore would not get any points for winning it.
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  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    bizarre.....was wondering why he was down there..nice little collect just the same..Will call them tomorrow and post the reply..got a feeling Tivers is going to be on the money, from a few i have just checked randomly on CRIS
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  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    Correct
    58 for colts, 56 for fillies where qualified for a rating (ie placed) but still maiden
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  • thefalconthefalcon    20,505 posts
    ....until the 5th feb..... :-\"
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  • TedTed    53 posts
    Can anyone tell me why Micki Drippin dropped 1 point for running 3rd in the 74+ handicap on saturday 19th?
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  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    mmmm interesting dropped 1 point for finishing 6th...2 points for finishing 7th, 1 point for finishing 4th and then nothing for the 3rd...Been dealt with very fairly by the handicapper..

    No idea...maybe handicapper discretion, as they are all 74+ races...Just not normal to see points dropped off so easily. i do recall when we had a horse struggling to be competitive a year or two back it took 4 runs finishing in the last 3 to drop a point!!!
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  • raconteurraconteur    610 posts
    Ted said:

    Can anyone tell me why Micki Drippin dropped 1 point for running 3rd in the 74+ handicap on saturday 19th?

    it didn't drop - it stayed on 74.
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  • thefalconthefalcon    20,505 posts
    micky didn't drip.....sorry slip..... :))
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  • TedTed    53 posts
    my mistake, you're right stayed on 74, I just thought for a saturday placing most horses would get 1 or 2 added.
    I think I am going to stop trying to understand the ratings!
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  • TedTed    53 posts
    RIO said:

    mmmm interesting dropped 1 point for finishing 6th...2 points for finishing 7th, 1 point for finishing 4th and then nothing for the 3rd...Been dealt with very fairly by the handicapper..

    No idea...maybe handicapper discretion, as they are all 74+ races...Just not normal to see points dropped off so easily. i do recall when we had a horse struggling to be competitive a year or two back it took 4 runs finishing in the last 3 to drop a point!!!

    Mickey dropped from 75 to 74 after running 4th to Checkpoint in early January




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  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    less than 2 lengths 4th as well...very fortunate
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  • RodentRodent    7,483 posts
    The system should not have any discretion. It should be black and white. Place your horses to the best of your ability according to the rules. Once the human element is introduced it becomes unfair.
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  • rickrick    487 posts
    Rodent said:

    The system should not have any discretion. It should be black and white. Place your horses to the best of your ability according to the rules. Once the human element is introduced it becomes unfair.

    Rodent i agree with you make it simple to understand in black and white , then i bet the handicappas phone wont ring half as much.
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  • TheDivaTheDiva    13,248 posts
    David Hunter is on the radio Tuesday morning from 6.40am. Racing Radio's facebook page is asking you to send through your queries and questions.....here's your chance to get them answered.
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  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    why so bloody early??? all the racing people are at track or out in the yard with the horses, and all the owners are asleep..Do they deliberately have them on early so that no-one hears them???

    Or is it only me that likes to sleep in???? I'll send through question, but i wont hear the answers!!!!
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  • TheFunksterTheFunkster    3,840 posts
    The Diva said:

    i can explain why culprit never received a point.....
    we called and queried why culprit had gone up 4 points without winning a race (2 points for each second in town).
    It was explained that he went up because he had performed well in town. so he was being rated on potential. They also said that if he went to a maiden, they would "expect him to win" therefore would not get any points for winning it.

    "potential".... a very subjective term and the assessment of such can vary from person to person.
    How about just sticking to the facts and taking the subjectiveness out of the equation?
    Just as Rodent posted, remove this "handicapper's discretion" crap that is merely one person's opinion.
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  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    Does anyone know what time this meeting is being held??? And how they will go about releasign the outcomes to the industry?? Or has it already been released???
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  • FastmoneyFastmoney    4,912 posts
    Today 1.00pm.

    Generally nothing is implemented immediately however this appears to be a different scenario.

    Meeting minutes appear on the RWWA website 2 to 4 weeks after the meeting but you would expect a media release.

    Normally the attendees receive an agenda prior to the meeting, so the proposal should be with the industry representatives.
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  • Holly1Holly1    24 posts
    The trainers will be asking for some of the following at the meeting today I believe.

    No discretionary handicapping. Win on a sat you get four points, from 4th place backwards you drop a point. Trainers are not interested in the handicappers opinion of a horses potential - let these horses show their potential on the track first, without penalising the horse and owners.

    Give back the System that was introduced. Trainers were originally sold a package that was based on the above points, but after it was introduced David Hunter started playing judge and jury. There is nothing wrong with the handicapping system, it is the manipulation of weights based on what the handicapper thinks of a horses run, and how good he thinks a horse is going to be.

    The Mickey Drippin case was a good one, the trainer said that when she questioned David Hunter after the horses two unplaced runs , she was told that in David's opinion Mickey Drippin was not a short course horse and he would not look at him until he got closer to a mile.
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  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    Holly1 said:


    The Mickey Drippin case was a good one, the trainer said that when she questioned David Hunter after the horses two unplaced runs , she was told that in David's opinion Mickey Drippin was not a short course horse and he would not look at him until he got closer to a mile.

    yep that is the sort of thing that appears really hard to manage, so it would be good to get rid of that subjectiveness
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  • darkshinesdarkshines    2,837 posts
    Holly1 said:

    The trainers will be asking for some of the following at the meeting today I believe.

    No discretionary handicapping. Win on a sat you get four points, from 4th place backwards you drop a point. Trainers are not interested in the handicappers opinion of a horses potential - let these horses show their potential on the track first, without penalising the horse and owners.

    Give back the System that was introduced. Trainers were originally sold a package that was based on the above points, but after it was introduced David Hunter started playing judge and jury. There is nothing wrong with the handicapping system, it is the manipulation of weights based on what the handicapper thinks of a horses run, and how good he thinks a horse is going to be.

    The Mickey Drippin case was a good one, the trainer said that when she questioned David Hunter after the horses two unplaced runs , she was told that in David's opinion Mickey Drippin was not a short course horse and he would not look at him until he got closer to a mile.

    What is important to realise is WHY he does this. It's clear the system is ill-tailored for a horse-class distribution we have here - as in if 80% of the population is not Saturday class - why would you want to implement a systematic approach that allows what once were/could've been Saturday horses to exit that bracket. It is a perfect formula for ensuring small fields at the top (Saturdays).

    By selectively applying rating drops, he's showing his hand in that he knows the system is bogus. Whilst I haven't studied it, its seems logical that under the old system horses no longer Sat class simply had to stay and prop up Sat fields - because they couldn't drop back out.

    CRUCIALLY HOWEVER, back then these ones propping up the fields had a chance (or importantly - connections thought they had a chance) because the weight spread (min to max) gave them help (more help than currently). In my opinion fixing the ratings system isn't as important as fixing the handicapping system. Minimums need to be lowered and maximums need to be raised - there simply aint the cattle in WA to fill fields of 14 on a level playing field over a paltry band of 5.0 kg.

    I think connections (trainers particularly) need to understand (or be told) that 60kg or more won't kill the horse - IT IS ALL RELATIVE. Unless we want $30K Saturday races they simply have to ditch the urban myth, let fields be handicapped fairly . . . and get full fields.
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  • TheFunksterTheFunkster    3,840 posts
    A horse that wins a $9k Maiden should not cop the same 4 point penalty as a horse that wins a $50k Sat race, likewise for Midweeks.
    And maybe horses (running in class) that are beaten more than say 6 lengths drop 2 points rather than 1.

    Hopefully something half decent comes out of this review. Surely it can't be any worse than what we currently have.
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  • NgawyniNgawyni    786 posts
    The Funkster said:

    A horse that wins a $9k Maiden should not cop the same 4 point penalty as a horse that wins a $50k Sat race, likewise for Midweeks.

    Yep. Case in point tomorrow. Mountain Haze penalised 4 ratings points for winning $13,000 in a midweek beating 6 maidens. Doesn't matter tomorrow because its a SWP race but will catch up with him when he goes to a handicap. In comparison Princess Hallowell penalised the same 4 ratings points for winning $32,500 on January 5 beating a similar field by 4 lengths.

    A week later on January 12 Lenience gets 6 ratings points for winning a similar race by a neck!
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  • thefalconthefalcon    20,505 posts
    its got me well and truly stuffed... :-?
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