Slow Sectionals Policy

JayJay · November 2020

More often than not, a simple solution to a complex problem doesn't work and sometimes it raises more issues than it solves. Few would disagree with the intent of the slow sectionals policy, which with in built discretion to the stewards, states that a first quarter of greater than 32.0 seconds will trigger a fine of $100 for the driver. The arguments for the policy are well established.....more up tempo racing, benefits for horses back in the field, safety etc....few will argue with it's intentions.

However, there are areas of the policy and its application that raise questions.

What about slow lead times, what about the classes of horses racing under a mandatory time rule, what about tracks that don't have electronic timing (most country tracks are hand timed by very well intentioned and loyal club volunteers but issues of accuracy must be considered), what about the discretion applied when there is a fast lead time which has sometimes gotten the driver off the hook after a slow first quarter (stewards discretion), what about a horse running a slow first quarter when nothing in the field challenges it, what about a driver/trainer who advises the stewards they intend to sit but get left in front with no challenges, or the driver who doesn't back off the speed and the horse tires runs distanced and goes on inquiry about an incompetent drive, what about the fact that it is a "non progressive tax" on owners....that is, it is a $100 fine on a $4500 stake race, a $7500 race, a metro race or whatever..... and I say "tax on owners" because invariably, it will be the owners who cough up the money. I copped one the other night on a race with a winning stake of $3923 after trainer and driver percentages.....I paid up, your probably happy to cough up (if you win the race) as you want your driver to drive to the horses best advantage. If he had run fourth, I am not sure I would have been so accommodating but the driver would actually lose money if they had to cough up $100, as their drivers fee and percentage would not exceed $100 for 4th in a mid week $7500 race. A $100 fine on a win in a city race is inconsequential by comparison. In that win, my horse (very limited ability) ran a lead time of 37.7 (which is equivalent to a 28.94 quarter) but in the stewards view, this wasn't quick enough to ameliorate the slow first quarter of the last mile that he ran. By comparison, Chicago Bull ran a 38.1 lead time in the Porter Memorial the other night, the slowest of the night but no fine??? Not picking on the Bull at all, an all time favourite but he ran a first quarter of 31.5 in the Mount Eden Sprint....he could run that going backwards .....I think that highlights how a mandatory policy that doesn't take into account the class of the horses makes a rod for the stewards back. Frankly, in my view, it makes little sense and is very unfair.

On country timing, I was astonished to see that The Situation ran 1.59.7 from the stand (a new track record) at Northam on September 19th, a gross time of 2 min.40 sec. I thought that's good, he may be better than I think. I timed the replay,, multiple times......the time was clearly out by between 2.5 to 3.5 seconds .....these are hand timed tracks, how could the rule be possibly imposed at races at hand timed venues? Someone copped one at Narrogin on Saturday night....true, they appeared to be walking early on as described quite a few times by the on course caller....but it is a hand timed venue??? Would the fine stand up on appeal? I don't know but you would have a fair case.

And finally, when introduced at Moonee Valley many years ago, a WA filly of an extremely prominent owner went over for one of the big sires stakes races, lead, won, broke the track record and the driver got fined for going too slow the first quarter. The other drivers in the race should have all put in for the $200 as it was as much their fault as the winning drivers. Seriously. I think this well intentioned policy needs some work to be done on it before it attains the credibility it probably deserves.

Markovina · November 2020

Well they have to do something - i watched it for the 1st time in a fair while - and what a waste of time it was - Narrogin Sat night - most races a procession - walk and dash home - and two 34 second plus qtrs

A dead set yawn

JayJay · November 2020

Markovina said:
Well they have to do something - i watched it for the 1st time in a fair while - and what a waste of time it was - Narrogin Sat night - most races a procession - walk and dash home - and two 34 second plus qtrs

A dead set yawn

Gee, I must have been at the wrong track....a yawn fest??? ....seriously....you had Jessie Alwood storming home from back in the pack, Major Rush doing the same, I'm Victory charging down the outside, an absolute cracker of a drive from Hayden Charles to catch the mob napping and dead heating on Sameplace Sametime, a virtual match race between Doctor Tom and My Sweet Deal. I must be easier to please than some, I thought it was a cracking night's racing.

freodockers · November 2020

If you want messy run second on the last leg of your quaddie on Friday night, hang on protest lodged (not sure do the pay on result or protest), driver of winning horse fined $600 for repeat offences, protest dismissed.
Quaddie pays over $100, you’ve just got to laugh, shake your head and move on.

Chariotsonfire · November 2020

Margin probably too great to uphold the protest.

Stewards would have to be convinced that Stroke of Luck would not have won without the illegal whip action.

If they uphold one in the coming weeks it may make drivers toe the line a bit more.

Markovina · November 2020

You allways have selective posts

Race 1 - a joke 66.1 - 57.6 Race 2 62.7 58.5 Race 3 60 plus 58.3 Race 4 - no sectionals- but it was another walk by the 1st 2 - i turned it off at that stage

But i notice in race 7 - 34.6 sec 1st qtr

My view - you dont break 34 seconds - and its not pelting rain or a gale headwind - then you get a $400 fine non negoitable - the participants shouldnt have to be told - do you want people to be actually interested in your product

getthechange · November 2020

Chariotsonfire said:
Margin probably too great to uphold the protest.

Stewards would have to be convinced that Stroke of Luck would not have won without the illegal whip action.

If they uphold one in the coming weeks it may make drivers toe the line a bit more.

two month stewards leniency to whip rule expired yesterday and supposedly going to be applied stringently according to press release late last week

quite possibly it could have been an upheld protest if the protest was this week using the argument

would the winner responded as well if the whip was used within the rules

would the 2nd horse have finished closer if the driver broke the rule

if one goes a metre slower and the other a metre faster the result is different

JayJay · November 2020

Contributeur selectif here...... off the slow sectionals topic but two questions. If they uphold a protest based on a breach of whip policy, do they relegate or disqualify?

And if either of the above eventuate, does that open the door for the meat in the sandwich, the owner, to sue the driver for the prizemoney differential? Hypothetical but in a Pacing Cup Final worth $450,000, we are talking serious money.......the sharks may well be the only winners.

Ouvrir une boite de Pandore.

Markovina · November 2020

Just on the whip use - they didnt muck around with Fred Kersley the jockey in the Vic Derby

Hit it 10 times before the 100 metre mark - $10000 fine and 10 day suspension

tony · November 2020

JayJay said:
Contributeur selectif here...... off the slow sectionals topic but two questions. If they uphold a protest based on a breach of whip policy, do they relegate or disqualify?

And if either of the above eventuate, does that open the door for the meat in the sandwich, the owner, to sue the driver for the prizemoney differential? Hypothetical but in a Pacing Cup Final worth $450,000, we are talking serious money.......the sharks may well be the only winners.

Ouvrir une boite de Pandore.

As far as action by an owner v driver for whip use there is no difference to a winner being demoted for careless driving

freodockers · November 2020

Maybe he should ring his pop.
Remember him having a war with the stewards over whip action.

aussiebattler · November 2020

Markovina said:
You allways have selective posts

Race 1 - a joke 66.1 - 57.6 Race 2 62.7 58.5 Race 3 60 plus 58.3 Race 4 - no sectionals- but it was another walk by the 1st 2 - i turned it off at that stage

But i notice in race 7 - 34.6 sec 1st qtr

My view - you dont break 34 seconds - and its not pelting rain or a gale headwind - then you get a $400 fine non negoitable - the participants shouldnt have to be told - do you want people to be actually interested in your product

34 is slow especially on the pole in front on a downhill first quarter of the last mile like at narrogin ,we run faster than that with our 2yo 3 wide for that section of the track in track work ,the fine is justified ,all they had to do is let the horse roll a bit and run a 32

What would be the solution to faster overall first quarter of the last mile (other than drivers rating horses faster) ,should there be a shift to more short distance racing to have increased tempo especially for lower assessed horses ,how many fines have been dished out in sprint races , rule is not distance specific .

curmudgeon · November 2020

Handicap the horses via PBD in all races except the obvious ....as should be the case. Solves the sectional and race aesthetic problems ...it is not rocket science.

savethegame · November 2020

freodockers said:
Maybe he should ring his pop.
Remember him having a war with the stewards over whip action.

He sure did refuse to alter his weapon action, the fines just got bigger in small increments, it was always mentioned in the western Australia. the ongoing battle with Des Jones.

Markovina · November 2020

aussiebattler said:

Markovina said:
You allways have selective posts

Race 1 - a joke 66.1 - 57.6 Race 2 62.7 58.5 Race 3 60 plus 58.3 Race 4 - no sectionals- but it was another walk by the 1st 2 - i turned it off at that stage

But i notice in race 7 - 34.6 sec 1st qtr

My view - you dont break 34 seconds - and its not pelting rain or a gale headwind - then you get a $400 fine non negoitable - the participants shouldnt have to be told - do you want people to be actually interested in your product
34 is slow especially on the pole in front on a downhill first quarter of the last mile like at narrogin ,we run faster than that with our 2yo 3 wide for that section of the track in track work ,the fine is justified ,all they had to do is let the horse roll a bit and run a 32

What would be the solution to faster overall first quarter of the last mile (other than drivers rating horses faster) ,should there be a shift to more short distance racing to have increased tempo especially for lower assessed horses ,how many fines have been dished out in sprint races , rule is not distance specific .

" Especially in front on a DOWNHILL 1st qtr of the last mile at a track like Narrogin "

That will trump Jay Jay - there will be no comeback from Jay Jay on this - downhill hey - hah

JayJay · November 2020

Completely missing the point ...again.....34.5 is obviously unacceptable (show me where I said it was)......if it was in fact 34.5 (hand timing factor), so with the POLICY in mind, why does the driver of Master Leighton get a $100 fine for a 34.5 in race 1 but Outriders driver avoids sanction for a 34.6 in race 7. Is it because he didn't win (lead and ran 4th) or because it was a lower class race or the fact he was a claiming driver or what? The Stewards Report casts no light on the situation. Again, will repeat, simple solutions via a stated policy that is applied with apparent variable discretion is the issue. Again, will repeat, the aim of the policy is laudable but far too many shades of grey, a rod for the stewards back until it is tidied up with some more guidelines with respect to lead times, class of horse. Read the original post. And one last point ....if you had been on course, there was a very strong (and cold) headwind that they had to run into leaving the straight, probably not noticeable from your lounge chair during the few races you watched before turning off.

AbbysAce · November 2020

The other problem with the slow sectionals alot of the drivers don't know what speed they are going.

JayJay · November 2020

Drivers fined for slow sectionals since October 1st:

Kyle Harper, Jocelyn Young, Shannon Suvaljko, Issac Edwards, Deni Roberts,, Chris Lewis, Robbie Williams, Dean Miller, Donald Harper, Bailey McDonaugh, Ryan Warwick,, Lindsay Harper.

Numerous others let off under "hand timed sectionals" clause (including Pinjarra) and the "fast lead time" clause. GP and Bunbury the only electronic timing tracks?

AbbysAce · November 2020

And fining drivers for slow sectionals and whip infringements is perfect for stewards.

Pays for their wages, fills up the stewards reports, looks like there policing the race.

Rocket_Reign · November 2020

curmudgeon said:
Handicap the horses via PBD in all races except the obvious ....as should be the case. Solves the sectional and race aesthetic problems ...it is not rocket science.

Plenty of races drawn on level now

KTQ · November 2020

Jockey fined $50,000 and suspended for 13 meetings in the MC today for whip misuse

JayJay · November 2020

$1.1 million for 2nd, will Coolmore stump up the cash? Jockeys winning percentage is $55k.

tony · November 2020

While we will never know I would strongly doubt Coolmore would contribute to his fine

freodockers · November 2020

Not an expert on racing whip rules but was not a good look in slomo replays after the race.
Made trot drivers look like angels.
Didn’t realise how much they can get stuck into them.

JayJay · November 2020

Good, I hope you are right. I think there is a law in some jurisdictions in the USA that prohibit owners paying jockey fines.

freodockers · November 2020

Would have thought there was one here too JJ.

curmudgeon · November 2020

Rocket_Reign said:

curmudgeon said:
Handicap the horses via PBD in all races except the obvious ....as should be the case. Solves the sectional and race aesthetic problems ...it is not rocket science.

Plenty of races drawn on level now

It's a welcome but very recent initiative

JayJay · November 2020

Hold the champagne...... after proponents of PBD have been publicly and privately ridiculed for nearly two years, a few PBDs based on levels are sneaking in, along with some of those other half pregnant pretend PBD's but the reality is that Wed GP, 5 out of 9 races are RBD, Friday GP has 7 out of 10 RBD and the Friday Night Wagin meeting has 6 out of 7 RBD.

Rocket_Reign · November 2020

JayJay said:
Hold the champagne...... after proponents of PBD have been publicly and privately ridiculed for nearly two years, a few PBDs based on levels are sneaking in, along with some of those other half pregnant pretend PBD's but the reality is that Wed GP, 5 out of 9 races are RBD, Friday GP has 7 out of 10 RBD and the Friday Night Wagin meeting has 6 out of 7 RBD.

That’s about right imo 75% of races should be RBD

curmudgeon · November 2020

What is the rationale behind that 75 % RBD position ?

Rocket_Reign · November 2020

curmudgeon said:
What is the rationale behind that 75 % RBD position ?

Well I think 100% of races should be RBD but to appease the minority 75% seems fair

G'day Punter!

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