WA StallionsBreeding

DamienWyer

It seems at a casual glance that most Stallions in WA have recorded less mares than in immediate years past. I will compile a list when time permits.

Legless

Do you think around the same numbers have been served?
i.e just a greater % sent over east, or,
is it because the total number of WA mares being put in foal has decreased?

onemorebigbot

Where are all the WA mares going? surely there is a market to compile a a group of good producing mares....

RIO

maybe there is, but is there a market to pay for them???? Not surprised to hear the above, after 2 or 3 bad years in the sales rings no-one could keep trundling out the same produce for those returns.. So maybe a few mares didn't go around this year, combined with a  few of the better ones going east has diminished the numbers..

 

Will be interesting to see the compiled list of numbers this year compared to last..

IntoIt

Is WA in danger of becoming a "boutique" breeding state?

DamienWyer

2013 WA Stallions coverings (provisional figures to the end of December)


Last year’s breeding giant, Blackfriars, again topped the WA rankings
with 141 mares covered down from 178 in the previous season. This was
pretty much the story across the Industry, with a few exceptions.

Oratorio again fell in numbers covered, down from 83 to 73, where he was once in excess of 100 each season. Last year’s
success story, Scandal Keeper, fell as quickly as he rose, with just 47
mares covered compared to 159 the previous season. Demerit took a hit
as well with last year’s high of 73 this year turned into just 37. The
decline of Saxon continued with just 7 mares covered compared to his two
most previous seasons of 48 & 143. Famous Roman down from 62 to 24
and My Atacanta down from 27 to 12, both becoming private stallions for
their respective owners. War Chant got 65, down from 82 last season.
Henny Hughes finished he his time in WA with 69 down from 84. Flying
Pegasus fell to 14 from last year’s 34. Balmont joining Husson Lightning
down to a low of just 7. Passenger fell from 40 to 16. Finally Viscount
from 23 down to 6.

There were a few reasons to celebrate amongst
the first season or new to WA ranks with Frost Giant topping out at 73,
Ouqba 50, Gingerbread Man 43, but Lucky Unicorn 17 and Slater 14
struggled in a competitive marketplace.

So, the good news.


Dick Turpin had marginally more support up from 88 to this season 99.
Vital Equine was up from 34 to 87. Hala Bek recorded a modest increase
from 46 to 55, similarly Patronize from 39 to 51, Danehill Express 16 to
36, So Secret from 17 to 26 and Trade Fair from 59 to 74. The much
Racing Radio marketed Rogano, up from 53 to 57 and Bunbury based, Chance
In Time, up from just 12 to 37. Universal Ruler reported the same
numbers at 28 mares covered. Alfred Nobel got close again with 56 down
from 62. Planet Five recorded a marginal increase from 56 to 59 as did
Pitleco from 29 to 32.

IntoIt

If my Chatline filly is anything to go by, the Roganos [who is a close relative] will be something to look forward to. Shame Chatline left the state. Mine looks like a mini horse now and a beaut temperament. If type is anything to go by early maturer all over.

DamienWyer

So just as a rough figure, which is based on not finalised figures, I count 1352 mares covered by 34 stallions here in WA compared to those same stallions covering 1690 the previous season. In addition 197 mares were covered by first time stallions. I didn't take into account any stallions that may have left the State between last season and this season, so the figures are a bit rubbery.

My guesstimate is that the number of mares covered has shrunk by a minimum of 10% but it could be as much as 20%.

Legless

Damien Wyer said:

My guesstimate is that the number of mares covered has shrunk by a minimum of 10% but it could be as much as 20%.

If they haven't been sent east to be served and then return in foal - or a number of maiden broody's haven't been sent east, then going on past numbers the sale in a couple of years will have around 330 lots for offer.

:-? Will that mean less of the same - or less quantity, better quality :-??

DamienWyer

Well this year's sale is also reduced on the recent past, and I don't know if the overall quality has been improved. Certainly from my perspective, some of the yearlings being offered this year represent some questionable breeding choices. It's clear to me that some farms simply send anything and everything to stallions they deem commercial, they may have short term success in the sales ring but everything indicates that those yearlings will ultimately enjoy not much past Saturday's and the career of that stallion will be kaput. Whereas some have obviously taken a lot of care in their selections of stallions, and the results show.

Now whether that stock looks any good is yet to be seen, that is what comes next.

Theodor

Westspeed needs fixing up. The scheme does not not do what it was suppose to do (when instigated many years ago), and that is "to nurture the WA breeding industry". It needs to have a sire aspect and mares need to be at least 50% owned by WA breeders. I believe with what has happened with Tinkler yearlings at this year's sale the level of abuse has reached a level that forces RWWA to finally make changes to Westspeed to re-instigate the original intentions.

DamienWyer

The clause allowing Interstate Stallions stock to be allowed into the Westspeed scheme needs to be removed entirely. This does not support WA Breeders, it just supports those Breeders who have moved their mares to The Hunter Valley and happen to get in on this clause simply because they live here and not the mares. If you want to breed to a non WA Stallion resident, then take your chances in the sales ring without the Westspeed logo and scheme supporting you.

I would also like to see passed in stock be excluded from the Magic Millions Race Series. If you don't want to sell it at what the marketplace is prepared to pay for it, then you shouldn't be allowed to then take it home and race it yourself in a series that was supported by genuine buyers.

RIO

So cos breeders are abusing a system we need to change it for the breeders protection!?!?!?!?!?!?! WTF, why not just enforce it as it is intended to be enforced and have the balls to reject nominations that don't fit the criteria.. then exclude the breeder/owner that tried to cheat the rest of us...

magoo83

Damien Wyer said:

The clause allowing Interstate Stallions stock to be allowed into the Westspeed scheme needs to be removed entirely. This does not support WA Breeders, it just supports those Breeders who have moved their mares to The Hunter Valley and happen to get in on this clause simply because they live here and not the mares. If you want to breed to a non WA Stallion resident, then take your chances in the sales ring without the Westspeed logo and scheme supporting you.

I would also like to see passed in stock be excluded from the Magic Millions Race Series. If you don't want to sell it at what the marketplace is prepared to pay for it, then you shouldn't be allowed to then take it home and race it yourself in a series that was supported by genuine buyers.

Bullshit Damien they pay to have their yearlings in the sale too, why should they miss out on the series because they werent offered enough in the sales ring,

If I were to put mine through the sale and the bidding didn't get to where I was happy, I assure you the yearling would be coming home, then either raced by myself or syndicated out,

So at the end of the day when the yearling which you have a reserve of say $20,000 only reaches $9,000 the owner/breeder should sell just for it to be eligible for the series.
That just sends the message that if you are a breeder all you need to do come sale time is bend over and grab your ankles

I recon you'd soon see a few breeders buying their own stock back In the ring and just paying MM their commission,

RIO

I see what your saying magoo83, but the concept of the horses being eligible for the race only if sold at the auction has got merit.. It would appear that some in the breeding game have unrealistic expectations on the value of the stock that is put forward.

At the July yearling sale this year I know of a breeder who put a reserve price of 60k on one of his yearlings, purely cos they wanted it in the sale and had no intention of actually selling it... It is due to this type of abuse by breeders that the current system needs to be addressed...

In the February sales I know of at least 2 breeders that bought their own stock back so that they had a unarguable price to syndicate the horse out to muggings buyers at a later stage!!!!

So due to continuous and ongoing manipulation of the current system - primarily by breeders - some changes are needed..

 

Thoroly_Bread

I think the below is an awesome incentive from RNSW encourages breeding and buying more that the sales I know I would use the double up offer without a doubt!! What is everyone's thoughts in this?

The owner(s) of a BOBS nominated horse which wins any race in NSW, excluding Group and Listed races, may take the cash bonus or elect to get twice its value by choosing a “Double-Up” Voucher.
The Double Up Voucher can then be used for the purchase of a BOBS eligible horse or a share in a syndicated BOBS eligible horse at a Yearling or Ready to Run sale conducted by a participating Sales Company.
For example, the owner of a BOBS nominated horse winning a Saturday metropolitan race will receive $16,000 in cash and can elect to double up, receiving $32,000 which can be used to buy a BOBS eligible horse.
“Since the Double Up option was introduced more than $15 million has been put back into the NSW breeding industry through this scheme,” said Racing NSW Chief Executive Peter V’landys.
“The continued improvement of the BOBS program and its popularity has made BOBS the best bonus scheme in Australia.
“It’s little wonder that 84 per cent of the yearlings on offer at the Magic Millions Yearling Sale in January are BOBS eligible.”
From January 1st BOBS Double Up Vouchers won can also be used towards stallion service fee payments for participating NSW based stallions. A list of participating stallions will be available on the BOBS section of the Racing NSW website from May 2014.

TheDiva

Great incentive!

RIO

Yep.. Sounds damn good, keeps it in the state and keeps the money going around locally....and ties it to local stallions. As stated above by the great THEO.....an initiative that needs to be added to Westspeed - although I thought it already was and cant be bothered to read the conditions again!!!! 

DamienWyer

That certainly would take care of passed in lots due to overly priced reserves from less than motivated sellers because the current system allows for far too much manipulation of poorly framed rules.

TheFunkster

Super VOBIS is pretty good too. You get bonuses for placing a too, which can apply at provincial meets.
Didn't the old Sunspeed bonus scheme apply to WA stallions who had to be nominated for the scheme? It was before my time but I can vaguely remember races where the horses could only run if the stallion was a WA stallion and nominated for the scheme

Gilgamesh

Damien (or others) out of interest how much does it cost to keep your in foal mare for a year then separately keep the foal for the 14 odd months as well as a prep for the sales?

Also how much is Vicount's fee? His numbers seem extremely low to me, do his lines just not match up?

DamienWyer

From memory, I once added up all the costs for someone like me without a breeding farm on hand, and where I had to pay for everything. It came to $23,000 and that was without major Veterinary costs that may come along. The economy of scale shrinks rapidly if you have a farm or horse property where you are not paying commercial rates as quoted above.

Viscount stands for $8,000 at Oakland Park. I'm sure deals are available for next season which will be his 13th at Stud. His record at stud is 432 individual runners for 246 individual winners at 56.9% with total earnings of $19.4M, he has sired 9 stakes winners, the best of them is Rocketman. Trainer Grant Williams, has had the most local success with his stock with 2 runners recording 6 wins in total.

DamienWyer

Gilgamesh said:

Damien (or others) out of interest how much does it cost to keep your in foal mare for a year then separately keep the foal for the 14 odd months as well as a prep for the sales?

Also how much is Vicount's fee? His numbers seem extremely low to me, do his lines just not match up?

Who is your mare, her race name ? I will give you an indication of likely success with a mating to Viscount.

Gilgamesh

With absolutely no figures to back me up I think you may have hit on some of the problem. Perth Basically spreads to Mandurah, up to Lesmurdie all the way up to Lancelin now days. The number of people who had themselves 5-10 Acres where they kept a couple of mares that were good to them and sent them to a local stallion would have IMO taken a massive dive. The economics of being able to keep your mare at home compared to sending her to a commercial premises makes it unviable. If the Mrs gets to see the bills coming in for the mares she can quickly tell you they've got to go rather than the trickle of funds here and there!

The urban sprawl of Perth is going to have a lot to say about the future of the racing game IMO. You don't have the little guy out there pottering around with his couple of battler horses as much anymore so he loses interest, his friends and family don't ask or hear how Pop's horses are going anymore so they lose interest, it creates an exponential downturn.

Gilgamesh

No mare mate I was just very surprised to see his figures so low at what looks like a very decent fee.

DamienWyer

I would go one step further. Not many young Trainers come into Racing cashed up. Some who follow in the footsteps of existing family that have facilities can survive, but a lot don't have this luxury. They struggle to purchase into the Ascot training zone as it is artificially inflated in land value. With no on course stabling offered in the metropolitan area, they have to look to semi rural areas and invest in small to medium size horse trucks at the very minimum to operate successfully as a business. This of course adds to their bottom line all the normal costs associated with heavy motor vehicle's in getting to the track each morning to condition their stock at the very venue that doesn't have on course stables that would alleviate a lot of those costs.

So not only small breeders begin to fade, small trainers do as well.

With these small trainers not having the means to attract well heeled owners willing to spend at yearling sales, the noose just gets smaller around their necks, and their small business remains small forever. It is a Catch 22 for most.

Perth Racing could break the cycle by offering on course stabling with rental assistance, and this would at the very least give the Industry a vital shot in the arm of confidence. The effects would be like dropping a stone into a pond, the ripples would be felt across the Industry as a whole.

lame

28th of feb's the cut of date for stallion returns , or if done properly i doubt it would include nov and dec serves as nov's returns would be lodged 15 dec  , dec's lodged 15 jan then with so many returns little old W.A proberly doesn't get entered for another month or more after that
so although there will still be more too come doubt it will be much more on the later serves

Legless

Damien Wyer said:

I would go one step further. Not many young Trainers come into Racing cashed up. Some who follow in the footsteps of existing family that have facilities can survive, but a lot don't have this luxury. They struggle to purchase into the Ascot training zone as it is artificially inflated in land value. With no on course stabling offered in the metropolitan area, they have to look to semi rural areas and invest in small to medium size horse trucks at the very minimum to operate successfully as a business. This of course adds to their bottom line all the normal costs associated with heavy motor vehicle's in getting to the track each morning to condition their stock at the very venue that doesn't have on course stables that would alleviate a lot of those costs.

So not only small breeders begin to fade, small trainers do as well.

With these small trainers not having the means to attract well heeled owners willing to spend at yearling sales, the noose just gets smaller around their necks, and their small business remains small forever. It is a Catch 22 for most.

Perth Racing could break the cycle by offering on course stabling with rental assistance, and this would at the very least give the Industry a vital shot in the arm of confidence. The effects would be like dropping a stone into a pond, the ripples would be felt across the Industry as a whole.

As in any business there are only a few that are successful before 40 yrs of age. Of course there are those that get handed the silver spoon - getting the opportunity is one thing, doing something with it is another, those that are just well above average at their chosen craft and of course those that utilise and expand upon any lucky breaks they may come across along the way.
I don't see why being a horse trainer is any different, you learn the caper between 18 and 28-30, start up on your own and struggle for the 1st 5-8 years and if you are any good you will prosper.
Hand outs and subsidies will not help imho.

Where the young'uns of today get the idea that to have a huge house, boat in the drive, a clubsport etc etc by the age of 30 is the norm, I have NFI - maybe the excesses paid for FIFO work can be blamed for a fair proportion of this unrealistic mindset.

lame

Legless said:

Damien Wyer said:

I would go one step further. Not many young Trainers come into Racing cashed up. Some who follow in the footsteps of existing family that have facilities can survive, but a lot don't have this luxury. They struggle to purchase into the Ascot training zone as it is artificially inflated in land value. With no on course stabling offered in the metropolitan area, they have to look to semi rural areas and invest in small to medium size horse trucks at the very minimum to operate successfully as a business. This of course adds to their bottom line all the normal costs associated with heavy motor vehicle's in getting to the track each morning to condition their stock at the very venue that doesn't have on course stables that would alleviate a lot of those costs.

So not only small breeders begin to fade, small trainers do as well.

With these small trainers not having the means to attract well heeled owners willing to spend at yearling sales, the noose just gets smaller around their necks, and their small business remains small forever. It is a Catch 22 for most.

Perth Racing could break the cycle by offering on course stabling with rental assistance, and this would at the very least give the Industry a vital shot in the arm of confidence. The effects would be like dropping a stone into a pond, the ripples would be felt across the Industry as a whole.

As in any business there are only a few that are successful before 40 yrs of age. Of course there are those that get handed the silver spoon - getting the opportunity is one thing, doing something with it is another, those that are just well above average at their chosen craft and of course those that utilise and expand upon any lucky breaks they may come across along the way.
I don't see why being a horse trainer is any different, you learn the caper between 18 and 28-30, start up on your own and struggle for the 1st 5-8 years and if you are any good you will prosper.
Hand outs and subsidies will not help imho.

Where the young'uns of today get the idea that to have a huge house, boat in the drive, a clubsport etc etc by the age of 30 is the norm, I have NFI - maybe the excesses paid for FIFO work can be blamed for a fair proportion of this unrealistic mindset.

not sure with perth but looked into it as a possible path a few years back and the outlay was too much
track fee's
based on bunbury's
Jog Track/ Sand Usage $1.50 per horse
Grass Track Usage $8.80 per horse
Jump Outs Track Work $1.50 per horse
Jump Outs Trial Days $22.00 per horse
track work rider for fast work
$20 a ride
insurances
feed and supplements
and that's before taking into account premises , transport ect , ect
figured it's not viable but put it on the retirement wish list
from memory needed 10-15 horses to get close to breaking even and earning no wage unless the horses were doing well

Legless

I'm a little bored atm, so crunched some numbers on those  ( maybe the wrong thread ??)

Based on 30 day month

Feed @ $20 a day -                       600
1 x fast work per week                     35.20
2 x jog/ sand per week                      24.00
4 x fast work rider                            80
Insurance - no idea                        200

total per month                             939

Charge out at 60 per day = 1800 per month

Profit on one horse around $860.00 per month

Say 5 in work you have $4300 per month for expenses and wages.

Most living costs would be paid for by the business ( phone, rent, fuel, vehicle etc ), there wouldn't be a whole lot left for drawing a wage -  it seems a good steak would only come after a win :)

lame

Legless said:

I'm a little bored atm, so crunched some numbers on those  ( maybe the wrong thread ??)

Based on 30 day month

Feed @ $20 a day -                       600
1 x fast work per week                     35.20
2 x jog/sand per week                      24.00
4 x fast work rider                            80
Insurance - no idea                        200

total per month                             939

Charge out at 60 per day = 1800 per month

Profit on one horse around $860.00 per month

Say 5 in work you have $4300 per month for expenses and wages.

Most living costs would be paid for by the business ( phone, rent, fuel, vehicle etc ), there wouldn't be a whole lot left for drawing a wage -  it seems a good steak would only come after a win :)

beach 1x week
fast work 2-3x week when in racing condition
2-3x jog/sand a week
sunday off to go to church ;)