WHAT WILL IT BE LIKE IN ANOTHER 30 YEARSEast Coast Racing

bookielover

In 1984 in Australia, there were 3,000 on-course bookmakers with a national turnover of 2 BILLION dollars.

In 2014, here in Victoria, there are 199 bookmakers, and turnover last year was 170 million. I don't know the actual bookie numbers in  NSW but I think there are about 250 and their annual turnover is around 200 million. 

South Australia have 19 resident bookies with only 4 working every Saturday at Morphetville. 

Queensland numbers have dropped drastically and I heard that they have 10 working in Brisbane another 10 at the Gold Coast with probably another 50 around the State. A far cry from an old newspaper report I saw the other day from 1951, when 86 bookmakers fielded at the Provincial Course at Beaudesert an hour outside Brisbane.

Diva would know the numbers in W.A. but I think there are 12 that field in Perth and he may be able to tell us how many bookies are actually registered in W.A.

So in 30 years, over 2,500 bookies have disappeared from the scene and turnover has dropped to around 450 million in total around 1.45 Billion less than 30 years ago.

Does anyone want to make a prediction as to whether or not there will be any on course bookies left in 10 years, let alone 30??

:( :(

Dale

in 30 years their will only be samual l jackson and his stupid beret with 50c e/w bets available.

DamienWyer

How many racetracks will close in that time ?

Will people actually go to the races in ten years ?

Will WA bred a horse that can challenge in any jurisdiction the World ?

In ten years, will the Belmont redevelopment be halfway to completion ?

bookielover

Come to think of it, I'll settle just to be alive in 10 years :)) :))

trojanhorse

What is the problem - there are very many important racing areas in the world that are not having bookmakers. The decline in the numbers must be as a cause of fall in profits and not a very good business. 

If the numbers decline is to continue -  then of course there will be nil within 20 years. But there may be some other better forms of betting or means to win on horse racing.  20 years ago the world did not know of betting exchanges and legal betting on a loser of a race.  

IntoIt

Hope i'm still around to see how it all pans out.

Maybe it will come full circle...what is old will be new again.

I think society is beginning to rebel against certain "****" that happens nowadays. Got rid of Tom Waterhouse, thank God. Where might that have ended if not stopped. Is betfair as popular?

And if we dont get of our big fat a.... and physically get to the races we'll be dying sooner anyway!

Gilgamesh

The problem is that reduced turnover creates reduced prize money and reduced interest. Australian racing isn't UAE racing (although the sheeks are making their way over more and more!)

Even only just over ten years ago I use to go to Gloucester Park with 3 books working the local meeting and 2 working the east. I'm not talking about the halcyon days, now we're lucky to get one to show up on a big night so it's a rapid decline! That said the one or two that do show up occasionally very rarely frame up a competitive market so Trojan horse is right about there being better forms of betting. I've been mainly betting with Ladbrokes purely because they frame up a better market but i'm not sure what if any money comes back to the industry from them. If they don't have to put anything back then how can a local compete? Simple they can't.

brady

Some race clubs not helping will be surprised if any bookies fielding Pini on
Sunday ?
Stand fees more expensive then fielding at Ascot on a Sat ?

Gilgamesh

brady said:

Some race clubs not helping will be surprised if any bookies fielding Pini on
Sunday ?
Stand fees more expensive then fielding at Ascot on a Sat ?

More expensive than Ascot on a sat??? If that is correct it's ridiculous! Don't they want to create any atmosphere down there.

SPUDLEY

Hopefully the betting exchanges will be better regulated and taxed correctly as well or am I dreaming.

PuntingTragic

30 years horse racing will still be going country tracks maybe once a year picnic meets at Northam Pini

Bart Cummings will train a cup winner at 110 plus

Legless will be still trying to win a race in the comp

There will be no food just a once a day pill with everything we need

There will be no farmers

Transperth will still be awful


Il be chasing old girls round the nursing home

Damien will still be on the ladder down the back straight

Olli will be Sir Olli

Julia Gillard will be 150 kg

The west will be defunct hang on make that 5 yrs

Everyone over 5 will have a tattoo sleeve

Everyone will be micro chipped at birth with GPS

Bookies in 30 yrs on course not on your nelly 5 yrs left max

Oh an there will be a nude section on track

Aquanita

It is self evident that the on course bookmaker is a dying breed. Unfortunately BL only those of our vintage will lament this passing era. The halcyon on course days apart from the odd feature race days are well behind us and even I succumbed to operating from home over a decade ago after virtually living on a race course for the previous thirty years.

The writing was on the wall in the mid to late nineties but race clubs just looked at bookies as a cash cow rather than intricate part of the on course experience.

24 to 30 bookies in the local ring about ten in the interstate ring with heaps of atmosphere. Those days will never be repeated as the new generation of punters have been brought up on an off course system with internet and smart phones their betting tools.

It's called progress but I am sure many Administrators wish they could turn back the clock.

DamienWyer

I have just spent three days painting, going up and down ladders. My knee's are buggered. so to hell with me still being outside the fence in 30 years time on a ladder. I don't want to be in my 80's doing what I do now, thanks very much.

bookielover

Tojanhorse,

You make some very valid points. 

Yes, there are far more Countries around the world, where there are no bookmakers than there are where there are bookmakers.

But from an attendance point of view, unless you are going to a major meeting, Super Saturday Perth cup, etc. to socialise, why would you bother going to an Australian race track unless you have an interest in  a horse and want to watch it race.

From a purely punting perspective in an all tote environment, why would you attend the track to bet with the on course tote and pay a fortune for food and drink, when you can sit at home with a phone account, have a barby or buy a packet of snags and rolls for 10 bucks, and eat drink and punt yourself into oblivion.

The decline in numbers is due to our ever changing environment. 30 years ago, no Sky Channel, no racing every day of the week, a generation were growing up being educated to punt on the TAB, we changed socially. The Sunday roast and family time disappeared. Sunday shopping, in Melbourne anyway, changed the face of how we lived. AFL on Sunday. Kids grew up taking on other sports, basketball etc.

So things had to change. But  things did not change. 

Firstly the service that bookies offered didn't change. Mind you, that wasn't altogether their fault, but the fault of the short sighted racing administrators in each State who believed that the TAB was a bottomless pit from which they would ensure the success of their product. And for a long time that was true. Not anymore as the TAB continues to lose market share to the Corporates for a much lesser return to racing clubs.

Bookies wanted to compete but were not allowed to. It took years till they got the phones and when they did it took another 4 years before a minimum bet was no longer required.

Secondly, when they did get the phones, the bookies, at least here in Melbourne,stuffed themselves. They cheated their clients, and I don't say that lightly. A phone client would call in to be told by the bookie that 11/8 was the best price when plenty of 13/8 was available. I heard it time and time again. 

In Melbourne when most of the older bookies retired in particular Alf Blamey who would be first up with the prices and put up 120% as an opening market and adjust down from there, the "newer" bookies opened upat 150%  left the prices there for half an hour of the betting, and wondered why they couldn't get a bet. 

Then Betfair came in, changed bookie % forever but had a huge effect on their turnover. At least the administrators THIS time were quicker to act in  Melbourne and bookies can use Betfair on course to back and lay and pay a turnover tax on that. I wonder what Robert Nason the former CEO of Tabcorp would say now, having threatened at one stage to call off the Spring carnival if Betfair got a license to operate. No wonder he's no longer involved in racing.

So,Troj, times change and I know that bookies are in a parlous state at the moment and if they are to see out the next 30 years, a huge if, they basically need Carte Blanche to do and bet whichever way they want to on track.

The way that the new betting rules have been structured by RGL and RWWA, just further serves to hamstring the remaining on course bookmakers, and there is just absolutely no logic for them to do so.

At the very least, they could have allowed the on course bookies to offer top fluc, best tote etc, and give it a 3 month trial which would have covered the Perth carnival, and then they would have seen if it had any effect on Tote turnover or not. But why do that, it takes common-sense to do that, a trait unfortunately sadly lacking amongst our racing administrators. 

As to the future, Trojan, nothing stays the same in racing and I have no doubt that there will be changes to the way we bet in the future. But if they are not changes  that help in the survival of the on course bookie, then I can assure you that as bad as the "crowds" at Belmont and Ascot are now, and at Flemington and Caulfield are now on a Saturday and mid-week, no one will attend the races at all.

And that would be a very sad day for racing in this Country.

PuntingTragic

Bookies are getting soft to reeling in horses after small punts

They offer weak odds mostly the on course bookie has jumped the shark

Bookies will all operate of course in less than 5 years I reckon

For them to survive they need more people on track

As the comforts of home increase attendance will drop

Unless turf clubs realise they need to offer cheap drinks an cheap food they won't survive either

Cheap drinks will get people to the track on course jackpots lots if things needed

Can't blame people getting a box of a nice beer at 45 bucks an watching the races with a few mates

Buy that box on course for 4 mates your looking at 410 bucks you see what I'm saying here

That's 365 bucks 4 mates could punt with an drink the sane amount of beers

Sky channel. TVN own couch drink as much as u want cheaply lap tops

Nah on course bookies are done n dusted

Legless

I think @PuntingTragic this is exactly what @bookielover has been saying for a while now.

Clubs have under valued the Bookie and instead of promoting the track as a place to go and get great odds, have let them become nearly extinct.

Yahright - lets just jack up the price of entry, food, beer,  -  then drop service levels, offer entertainment 2 or 3 days a year - oh and members  :O

The track used to be a place to go where you could get a decent bet on, have a few beers and a great day out - maybe technology was just a bit too quick for the administrators :-??

peleus

The growth is just simply exponential. I know a lot of us are excited for it. But it 10 years I guess, we'd be too old? 

PuntingTragic

Legless said:

I think @PuntingTragic this is exactly what @bookielover has been saying for a while now.

Clubs have under valued the Bookie and instead of promoting the track as a place to go and get great odds, have let them become nearly extinct.

Yahright - lets just jack up the price of entry, food, beer,  -  then drop service levels, offer entertainment 2 or 3 days a year - oh and members  :O

The track used to be a place to go where you could get a decent bet on, have a few beers and a great day out - maybe technology was just a bit too quick for the administrators :-??

Not sure I agree with great odds its a blue moon when a bookie offers on course better odds than the him LR tote

At least if I want 250 ew on the tote it doesn't say sorry can't take your.

Agree the turf clubs are not doing ANYTHING AT ALL to encourage people to the track jacking up prices for drink an food is a joke

I will say PR did reduce prices in the members for drinks an the food is not too badly priced but more reductions are needed

Bookies are there own worst enemy to they have been weak at Ascot an Belmont for a long time

bookielover

Well said, Legless.

Judging by the comments made by members of the WATC, they, too, basically get no value for money at all. 

So when you take a hard dispassionate look at what the racing administrators offer the punter that can be bothered making the treck to the track, it's $15.00 to get in, high priced food and drink, and the inability to walk up to a licensed on-course bookmaker, and ask them for a bet a top fluc or best of the totes. And the members pay thousands for nothing.

So why go?

The only reason that I can think of is value. True, you can't eat value, you still have to back the winner.

But when you compare the best price bet by bookmakers as compared to the tote, for the top 5 horses in the market, bookies invariably bet far better odds than what the tote eventually pays.

I was reminded of that a while  ago at a meeting at Mildura. There were 3 bookies on track and they had given $2.70 about a horse which was backed into $2.00. Knowing the bookies who worked there, a couple of grand would have been enough to do that, but that's not the point. Of course, the Sky presenter, the TVN presenter and when they crossed to the track, Rick Macintosh course broadcaster all talked about the plonk on this horse.

The horse duly won, and paid $1.80 on the tote, to which Macintosh said after the race, "you could have got $2.70 here on track, but any price a winner is a good price', a typical comment from someone who has no idea of value or of punting.

As I have said many times before, so apologies for the repetition, when you consider how much more money is earned by race clubs from punters putting their money through the on course tote, it has never ceased to amaze me why they have not encouraged punters to come to the track and shop around for the best price available. 

Whilst it is true that on track punters won't take $1.80 from the tote when $2.70 is available with a bookie and the club would only get the turnover tax component out of the bookie, the fact is that the same punters are taking quinellas exactas trifectas and first fours with the on- course tote while at the track,. I know I do, and in that way, even though I may have all my win bets with a bookie, the club still get their "whack" out of me through my multiple betting.

At the end of the day, I think it's fair to say, that racing administrators treat the running of their race clubs far differently to the running of their own businesses. I cannot imagine them allowing their businesses to stagnate the same way that they allow their race clubs to stagnate. If they had a feature that set their business aside from others, they would be advertising it on all media to attract clients. That feature is the on-course bookmakers

Bookmakers not only add a personal touch when having a bet, at the best % bet by bookies, they invariably offer the punter far better odds than the tote and a greater opportunity to maximise the punters return on their investment. Bookies are unique in this Country and set us apart from the on-track experience in New Zealand the USA etc. 

But they, and a generation of punters have been treated with contempt by the race clubs, whose sole purpose in life was to encourage the punting public to stay away from the track and bet with the tote.

Enter Betfair and the Corporates, and our erstwhile administrators and Governments of all political persuasions have got no idea how to either handle them, or maximise any return from them, with their profits going off shore to the Mother Country.

So, just for a start, how about in their next advertising campaign, those responsible instead of ordering the same garbage that they always order, you know, film of about 30 or 40 young attractive people lining the fence cheering horses racing down the straight which means absolutely nothing to anybody, they actually take a camera into the betting ring and show punters betting with the bookies and the tote, and have a voice over encouraging punters to get to the track in order to maximise the value they get for each bet, and the "fun" that they can have comparing the odds on offer from the bookies and tote.

For members, what about a complete review of what members get for their hard earned. How about a complete review of catering and food and drink prices. 

2014 is looking like it's going to be a tough year for all of us. Prices continuing to rise, a Federal Government committed to reign in debt which will see cuts in services etc. and more job losses.

For the next 6 months, the public will be paying off the massive credit card debt that they have accumulated over the Xmas New Year period.

So that discretionary punting dollar is going to get even tougher to attract.

If the racing administrators continue to plod along at the same rate that they have for the last 20 years, whether or not bookies will be here in 30 years won't be the question.

It will be whether or not Perth Racing will continue to exist as a viable business that Governments with an ever diminishing budget and cost blow outs in health care and other actual necessities of life that will demand ever increasing funding, will support a dying industry.

bookielover

PT, at the best price bet, bookies virtually always beat what the tote ends up paying for horses that are in the market. 

If you are prepared to do the exercise, check it out next Saturday just at the Ascot meeting. At the best price bet, you will find that the bookies get down to around 106-108% in Perth. If you want to check it out further, have a look at Melbourne and Sydney. 102% in Melbourne, 97% in Sydney. The best site to check that out is Unibet/Betchoice. They actually put up the best % bet as betting goes on through the race, rather than the current % that is being bet which TVN put on their screens.

The tote work to 117% for the win. About the only time the tote pays better, is on long priced winners, and that's only because bookies can't be bothered winding the price out in Perth and Melbourne. That doesn't apply in Sydney, and bookies will bet $300 about horses paying $100 on the tote.

I find your claim that you can't have $250 each way with the on track bookies, I'm assuming based on the last sentence of your post that it is they that that you are talking about, incredulous. Yes, the Corps will bar you if you are a winner, but I have never had a problem getting on for those amounts when in Perth, and if you get on Puntas site, they offer the odds to $5,000 every Saturday before they start operations at the track.

PuntingTragic

Will do BL lot of times I do check but so
Many agency's now I just can't be stuffed mostly if I see a glaring difference il bet with the books or il bet on bet fair

I'm a member of Perth Racing an I get great value for 495 a year the drinks are cheaper in the members which over a year adds up discount book is great we use it a lot so yes this member gets great value for money

TheDiva

PuntingTragic said:

Legless said:

I think @PuntingTragic this is exactly what @bookielover has been saying for a while now.

Clubs have under valued the Bookie and instead of promoting the track as a place to go and get great odds, have let them become nearly extinct.

Yahright - lets just jack up the price of entry, food, beer,  -  then drop service levels, offer entertainment 2 or 3 days a year - oh and members  :O

The track used to be a place to go where you could get a decent bet on, have a few beers and a great day out - maybe technology was just a bit too quick for the administrators :-??

Not sure I agree with great odds its a blue moon when a bookie offers on course better odds than the him LR tote

At least if I want 250 ew on the tote it doesn't say sorry can't take your.

Agree the turf clubs are not doing ANYTHING AT ALL to encourage people to the track jacking up prices for drink an food is a joke

I will say PR did reduce prices in the members for drinks an the food is not too badly priced but more reductions are needed

Bookies are there own worst enemy to they have been weak at Ascot an Belmont for a long time

You don't bet much with the bookies on course if this is your ill informed comment

bookielover

Good to hear that at least one member is getting value for money, PT. 

On another point re members, I did read about members complaining that they were never invited to the Committee room for a meal or anything like that. 

The VRC here in Melbourne, and I think that the Melbourne Racing club do the same, invite up to 6 members every Saturday to lunch in the Committee room together with their wives even if the wife isn't a member. They have been doing it at the VRC for 20 years, so in that way at least they get to meet their members on a more personal basis.

bookielover

One more thing on best % bet, PT. 

You may have noted the % bet in Sydney. Those are losing figures, and are the reason that in a field of say 14 horses, you will find 10 and sometimes 12 horses being backed in a race because the smart figure men who know their form and have done their prices and understand value, make what is called a punters book, and back every horse they can to show a 2-3 % return on investment. 

They can't do it every race, but blokes like Zelko Radjonavek from Tassie did it for years, until he found that getting rebates from the Tassie tote paid a lot better and made him and his partner multi squillionaires.

PuntingTragic

The Diva said:

PuntingTragic said:

Legless said:

I think @PuntingTragic this is exactly what @bookielover has been saying for a while now.

Clubs have under valued the Bookie and instead of promoting the track as a place to go and get great odds, have let them become nearly extinct.

Yahright - lets just jack up the price of entry, food, beer,  -  then drop service levels, offer entertainment 2 or 3 days a year - oh and members  :O

The track used to be a place to go where you could get a decent bet on, have a few beers and a great day out - maybe technology was just a bit too quick for the administrators :-??

Not sure I agree with great odds its a blue moon when a bookie offers on course better odds than the him LR tote

At least if I want 250 ew on the tote it doesn't say sorry can't take your.

Agree the turf clubs are not doing ANYTHING AT ALL to encourage people to the track jacking up prices for drink an food is a joke

I will say PR did reduce prices in the members for drinks an the food is not too badly priced but more reductions are needed

Bookies are there own worst enemy to they have been weak at Ascot an Belmont for a long time

You don't bet much with the bookies on course if this is your ill informed comment

Just calling it as I see them the books in the members RARELY are offering much better than the tote or fixed odds

I don't rub shoulders with the great unwashed in the public bookie pen

If I like something rough il get on bet fair

Bookies at Ascot don't know the meaning of bet fair hence they are a rapidly dieing breed sooner they go the better

bookielover

With the greatest of respect PT, how can you make an informed statement regarding the main bookies ring, when by your own admission you"don't rub shoulders with the great unwashed in the public bookie pen".

Therefore, your statement as to the fairness or otherwise of how the Perth bookies bet, totally lacks logic and credibility.

From my experience, Peter Bartlett is one of Australia's biggest bookmakers, Peter Cribb, Don Martin, Bob Howatt, Trevor Burrows the Punta boys, to name a few, will all give you a decent bet. 

Your post smacks more of someone who has a personal beef or vendetta against bookmakers, rather than an informed decision based upon a proper punting experience.  

TheDiva

PT said: "Bookies at Ascot don't know the meaning of bet fair hence they are a rapidly dieing breed sooner they go the better"

I challenge you to find a bookie in the ring who doesnt know about betfair. Many of them use it in fact. 

So there's no basis to the things you are saying in this thread....

carey

or most others =)) =))

bookielover

I thought PT was referring to the fact that you can't get a fair bet on with the bookies, rather than that they don't know the meaning of Betfair, an equally ridiculous statement. Reading it again, I see where you have read it correctly Diva, and I haven't.

However, methinks that PT isn't exactly a bookie lover, and when one allows personal bias to get in the way of fact, one is invariably found to be incorrect in ones thinking.

TheDiva

same response from me either way.

If he cant get his $250 each way on at a decent price in our ring then he's doing something wrong and don't fool yourself about the value on the corporates. Our ring usually bets the top price on most of the favoured runners.

Then again, how would you know if you never come into the public domain??

darkshines

Are Perth bookies permitted to lay off on betfair yet?