WA Pacing Cup night.Harness & Greyhounds

JayJay

Matty Young on Toretto? I was waiting for him to run on track and start shepherding the others out the way in Ben Cartright"s race. Obviously seeking a Bonanza. It was the most pointed call I've heard in a while.

Gilgamesh

a

JayJay said:

Gil, I respect your views and can sort of see where you are coming from but  Toretto finished 87.4m from the winner. That is ridiculous. It was a drive worthy of sanction. He couldn't possibly win driven like that and as a result, nor could David Hercules. Harper's drive ....well, at least he followed the script and lead and then got cover but on that run, he probably shouldn't have started. Was reported as being 99% right but obviously wasn't ...he blew up in the last lap. And god bless good old Copagrin ...a grand earner for connections and honest  as the day is long...but if he is a Cups horse, then I am Monika Lewinsky's boyfriend. After that mugging, I have even more respect for DH.

i do not disagree with you, I would never go in to bat for any of the Hall camp on that race, I ended up being heavily envolved on Herc, i'm just trying not let the punt cloud my judgement but end of the day Toretto has no right to be driven like that, i'm not even sure he has won any race at FFA level.

Once Toretto didnt lead he couldnt win, then as I've stated earlier its about giving his horse every chance to finish in the best possible position according to the rules of racing which was to follow the leader, he will argue he was trying ro win and it will be accepted. All I can see him getting done for is crossing when not clear.

Meanwhile the half of the crowd who showed up and know enough about racing left like me thinking that was questionable and wondering wether than can bet safely on the code. All came around from a lack of competition but what do you do, you cant bar a stable from entering horses for a race if they are the only ones with quality runners. If Toretto and the winner are from different stables we would be talking about how good a race it was, how good a price the winner was and how massive a run herc was. Unfortunately we aren't

thefalcon

but why alleged shenanigens..it was a 400k race.....

WesternWatchdog

An army of five soldiers vs an army of one soldier. My guess is that the one soldier would need to be greater than Hercules to win.

magoo83

Team driving is not acceptable at any level in Australia, you see it more and more often here in wa, it's sickenin, not the case of the best horse winning it was a case of the horse the race was set up for winning

Gilgamesh

I see the driving tactics on Toretto have been queried, I cant see anything coming from it as I have stated earlier G Hall jnr has a solid defence that he was purely driving to win the event, he tried to keep an advantage on his main danger it's just wether or not the horse had the track record behind him to think that it was reasonable to drive him in such a way. Anything else is too much innuendo.

I went back and had a look at last years cup where Toretto sat leaders back and nearly ran down the stable mate. In that the lead time was 101.4 seconds compered to a time of 94.3 seconds last night so a difference of 7.1 seconds over the initial 1327 metres!!! No wonder the front runners won last year and the back markers this year.

Interesting race that is for sure.

Gilgamesh

Don't know how accurate my maths is but that's about a 1.54.3 mile rate for the first 3rd of a 2936m race!!!

Chariotsonfire

Your maths are correct and after that lead time Toretto and Bettors Fire had absolutely no hope.

I am not convinced either way whether there was team driving involved or just numerous driver errors.

One thing I do know that the most exciting races over the years usually evolve through driver errors in the early or middle stages.

Maheer Lord's Pacing Cup win when they ran home in 31.1 after Fred Kersley ripped up Adams Mate mid race was a case in point.

SHOVHOG

Probably the winner of next years pacing cup won on the night

Gilgamesh

Chariotsonfire said:

Your maths are correct and after that lead time Toretto and Bettors Fire had absolutely no hope.

I am not convinced either way whether there was team driving involved or just numerous driver errors.

One thing I do know that the most exciting races over the years usually evolve through driver errors in the early or middle stages.

Maheer Lord's Pacing Cup win when they ran home in 31.1 after Fred Kersley ripped up Adams Mate mid race was a case in point.

Definitely agree with those comments, that's why sometimes when you have an outer country meeting on a Friday night alongside GP the country meeting can provide more entertainment.

I did like seeing Kyle cross, show the other drivers if you really want to cross from wide you can still do it.

Gilgamesh

SHOVHOG said:

Probably the winner of next years pacing cup won on the night

Who you thinking? Beaudiene Boaz as a 4yr old?

SHOVHOG

Gilgamesh said:

SHOVHOG said:

Probably the winner of next years pacing cup won on the night

Who you thinking? Beaudiene Boaz as a 4yr old?

Yeh fair call probably 18 months away. Boaz is something special though.

Gilgamesh

@Lincolnism what sort of time do you think jnr will get? Do you think he'll just get time for crossing or anything for over driving as well, not talking about team driving or anything but clearly he over drove his horse.

Probably something similar to what Woodley got for crossing last week which I think was about 17 days???

Just finished Hunty's book, how times have changed I wasnt around at the time but can someone tell me how bad Sean Harney's (sorry if I've miss spelt it) drives were to get 6 months twice?

SLIPPERGOLDEN

Great race. A pity more of the races aren't that keenly contested.

bookielover

I watched the race after the cricket finished.

With the greatest of respect and admiration for Richard Bell. 

It's great to hear you call a race with the excitement and passion you displayed last night. But, sometimes, you can get so carried away when calling like that, that your words can come out a jumbled mess, because you get caught up so much in the excitement of it all, and your voice reaches such a high pitched screach, that you can lose control, and your call can suffer because of it.

Please watch a replay of the Bonecrusher, Waverley Star Cox Plate, called by the man that I consider the greatest caller of all time, Bill Collins. A magnificent exciting call, a call that has been replayed thousands of times. The call had all the excitement that the race deserved, but it was Collins at his best because his voice didn't evolve during the call into a high pitched screach, rather, it was a controlled call full of passion and fervor that the race deserved.

I once heard Rick McIntosh, a caller here in Victoria, reach such a fever pitch calling a steeple chase, that his voice just went on him, and the last 100 metres of the race were a callers disaster. 

Hopefully, if you read this, you will accept this as constructive criticism.

Back to the race. I'm not a huge follower of the trots, however I hope to be in Perth for the Inter in November. I was there for the 2012 Inter, and had a great time.

That WA pacing Cup, was one of the best races I have ever seen, let alone at Gloucester Park. Particularly, when you take into account that there is no sprint lane. So whether or not anyone thought some of the drives questionable, I just want to congratulate all concerned.

By the way, who is Milsy? And is he taking out a license to work at the GP trots? If so, best of luck to him. He will, probably need it!!

BlacksAFake

Never forget that Cox Plate BL,was on the fence as a teen,Bonecrusher broke OWS heart that day,never the same horse again.Never see a dogfight like that again.

JayJay

Yes Linc, my late night error. Richie Bell was the caller and chairman of Ben Cartwright's cheer squad. Sorry for error, my bad.

bookielover

Big Russ Hinze, one of Queensland's most corrupt politicians, owned OWS Blackie.

He had 20 grand on it. Even though it wasn't his own money, I reckon it  broke his heart too. 

Markovina

bookielover said:

I watched the race after the cricket finished.

With the greatest of respect and admiration for Richard Bell. 

It's great to hear you call a race with the excitement and passion you displayed last night. But, sometimes, you can get so carried away when calling like that, that your words can come out a jumbled mess, because you get caught up so much in the excitement of it all, and your voice reaches such a high pitched screach, that you can lose control, and your call can suffer because of it.

Please watch a replay of the Bonecrusher, Waverley Star Cox Plate, called by the man that I consider the greatest caller of all time, Bill Collins. A magnificent exciting call, a call that has been replayed thousands of times. The call had all the excitement that the race deserved, but it was Collins at his best because his voice didn't evolve during the call into a high pitched screach, rather, it was a controlled call full of passion and fervor that the race deserved.

I once heard Rick McIntosh, a caller here in Victoria, reach such a fever pitch calling a steeple chase, that his voice just went on him, and the last 100 metres of the race were a callers disaster. 

Hopefully, if you read this, you will accept this as constructive criticism.

Back to the race. I'm not a huge follower of the trots, however I hope to be in Perth for the Inter in November. I was there for the 2012 Inter, and had a great time.

That WA pacing Cup, was one of the best races I have ever seen, let alone at Gloucester Park. Particularly, when you take into account that there is no sprint lane. So whether or not anyone thought some of the drives questionable, I just want to congratulate all concerned.

By the way, who is Milsy? And is he taking out a license to work at the GP trots? If so, best of luck to him. He will, probably need it!!

Thats an interesting analysis - when i watched the race live ( and i only had a few minor 1st 4s - so i wasnt financially involved) - i thought the same thing - i thought he went way over the top - thought he was nearly going to have a nervous breakdown - and ruined the race a bit 

However Saturday arvo - i watched the race again - saw all the mid race moves and ive got to say - i thought it was a brilliant call - Gary Hall snr - said it was the most exciting big race hes seen in 50 years with the moves  mid race etc 

Just a final comment on Clinton Hall - the winning driver -  i know he got the 5 years in the past for EPO ( which is abad thing to have on resume) but that guy is driving brilliantly - hes driving horses for luck - good example was Indomitable on Tuesday night - could have stayed in the running line - but went 3 back the pegs - a winning move -hes doing this consistently with alot of his drives - and  if they have tad of luck - theve awfully hard to hold off - because theve done no work 

Bottom line is - follow C Hall - especially if theve drawn awkwardly - and as a result are a nice price - he will drive them for luck( their only chance of winning) - and  if they get it - quite a few of them are going to salute

SLIPPERGOLDEN

bookielover said:

By the way, who is Milsy? And is he taking out a license to work at the GP trots? If so, best of luck to him. He will, probably need it!!

http://www.6pr.com.au/news/6pr-breakfast-team-20141113-11lt0s.html

He also had a very brief stint at calling the trots in the early eighties.

bookielover

Thanks Slip.So is he taking out a license at the trots??

SLIPPERGOLDEN

Yes I believe he has commenced. Worked last night supposedly and I think has worked country already. All very recent. He gave up his role on the committee of Greyhounds WA due to what could be inferred as a conflict of interest. This has all just happened in past six weeks or so.

bookielover

Thanks again Slip.

Don't know the bloke at all, but as a son of a bookie and bookie lover, I wish him every success in his endeavors. 

=D>

SLIPPERGOLDEN

Not sure if he is going alone or has financial backing but good luck to him. He seems a genuine character.

thefalcon

bloody hell.millsy looks like howard sattlers twin brother....

LuckyLongshots

Average quality, but here it is...

Gilgamesh

Have watched the replay a few times now and stating the obvious but if Woodley had his time again surely he wouldn't make that move. Bettors Fire is racing a good 5 lengths below his best and he and Toretto had already burned with Toretto being on his back it effectively takes those two out of the race. Northview Punter and Our Jimmy Johnstone are stuck on the fence behind the two who had already worked so they were going to need miracle splits. Soho Jackman is not a breeze horse, is unproven at this level and had already been worked by Copagrin so if Woodley just drove a patient race and came with one run he was going to have no trouble getting around them meanwhile everything else is stuck on the fence.

Effectively it was his decision to go that gave other runners in the race their chance. I know hindsight is a wonderful thing but he really didn't have to go.

JayJay

Gil, that is a pretty spot on analysis, all true but the burning question in my mind was why on earth Toretto hooked out from behind Bettors Fire. It wasn't to avoid getting pocketed behind Bettors who only collapsed in the last 400m and was still going okay at that stage, it wasn't to avoid getting pocketed by the Soho Jackman who was already under sufferance and was struggling (thus allowing Toretto off the fence) and it wasn't done to get the sit on David by allowing him to get to the breeze......he came out to take on David and take as much juice out of him as he could and in doing so, committed suicide as far as the chances of Toretto competing at all. Meanwhile Northview was smoking the pipe and further back, My Hard Copy had his feet on the couch. In my view, it was a unconscionable drive on Toretto and the defence offered by some that it made for one of the most exciting races ever seen, whilst visually true, doesn't hold up for me. Its indefensible in my view but thats just how I see it.  Had the Williams horse got clear passage, he may have spoilt the party, he was unlucky and given his run, Our Jimmy Johnstone did not quite finish off...perhaps next year. Yes, Woodley might wish he had done things differently but I wonder who could have anticipated what was going to unfold as he moved forward to the breeze. The horse performed magnificently and has grown even more in my assessment of him.

TheSwooper

I bow to better minds but if Torreto had stayed in, there is no way he gets out if David H comes around and sits in the breeze. To win, you have to do something different otherwise the race goes like the previous week and it becomes  a procession. Hall stays in  = DH sitting in the breeze or going to front under no pressure =  wins easy. Who else would have been prepared to put any pressure on the fav in the race? It is not as if any of them are serious A graders. Perhaps GH would say that in a race worth so much, it is indefensible to not test the mettle of another horse and driver. I do agree with your comment about DH though, thought his run was excellent..

bookielover

Lincolnism, is Pinjarra considered to be a country meeting? 

I believe that the genii at Pinny trots told Steve Mulhall a few years ago, that they didn't want him working there.

So is Milsy allowed to work there?

And just to satisfy my curiosity, at which country meetings does he and will he work, and what is his liability to punters. In other words, what is the minimum that he has to bet a punter to win at these meetings?