GP- Tues 5/6Harness & Greyhounds

VillageKid

Some pretty darn handy pacers racing at GP on a Tuesday tonight including- Its Rock And Roll, Shockwave, Highly Flammable, Babyface Adda, Major Survivor, Betterpiece, Bletchley Park, Franco Edward, Bitcoin, The Embezzler, My Papa Bear, One Off Delight, Major Pocket, Slick Artist, As Happy As Larry, Itz Bettor To Win, DanielJohn, Dominate The Dojo, Liberty Rose and last but far from least.....Jack Mac!

curmudgeon

R8 encapsulates all that is wrong in the current handicapping system. Jack Mac ...a $220K winning 3 y/o ...NZ bred winner of all 8 straight in WA...in a CO against pacers who haven't won $50 K between them in 230 odd starts and an ODM trotter to boot. 

Waste of time and effort. Conditions need to be written into programmed races to preclude this happening. It's not rocket science.

Kane_26

I have no issue with the system personally as I've been on both sides of the fence and have been lucky enough to have one with above average ability. Re Jack Mac I believe if your lucky enough to get a decent horse you shouldn't be penalised to the point where your horse has to race essentially out of his grade to see if that's where they belong.

I understand it's frustrating to bump into them but there only there once, they win there race and move on there way. Just because we think (know) Jack Mac will win tonight doesn't mean he shouldn't have the right to go through his classes same as any unraced 4yo.

If an unraced 4yo trials and beats M2 horses before it's first start should we say no you can't win your maiden you go straight to town?

Rocket_Reign

Kane_26 said:

I have no issue with the system personally as I've been on both sides of the fence and have been lucky enough to have one with above average ability. Re Jack Mac I believe if your lucky enough to get a decent horse you shouldn't be penalised to the point where your horse has to race essentially out of his grade to see if that's where they belong.

I understand it's frustrating to bump into them but there only there once, they win there race and move on there way. Just because we think (know) Jack Mac will win tonight doesn't mean he shouldn't have the right to go through his classes same as any unraced 4yo.

If an unraced 4yo trials and beats M2 horses before it's first start should we say no you can't win your maiden you go straight to town?

That’s a good point and hopefully puts a better perspective on it for some others

JayJay

I have more concerns when a multiple classic winning 3yo returns as a 4yo and beats up the C0/C1's for 3 or 4 starts....may have won 100's of thousands of dollars....and yet absolutely zero penalty....that's what kills the small trainer/hobby owner breeder. Not so much a concern if a 3yo wants to take on open aged horses or if they can't find a 3yo race for him. Finding it pretty hard to find races for a couple of restricted class horses at the moment and having to race them "out of their class or depth" or the alternative is to send them to the paddock. Placing horses is very tough at this time of the year, believe me.

Kane_26

I understand where your coming from @JayJay as I said I can see both points. As a general rule the 3yo's who win classics don't come back as C0's as they've won their two "free" three year old races and then everyone after they lose a C class.

You will get the odd out of the ordinary situation like when Alta Christiano won his C0 at Pinjarra after winning the Western Gateway and the Derby. Due to his leg issues they were the only two 3yo races he had won so people would argue he's entitled to his two free races he was just a one off situation where he won the two best 3yo races.

curmudgeon

I am sure those other owners and trainers involved in the last race tonight are heartily supportive of your argument to not disadvantage the 3 y/o Jack Mac ...it will be their foremost thought as they drive through the rain on the way home towing their 4 ,5 ,6, 7 and 8 y/o CO's.

Bet they can't wait for the next 3 y/o multiple winner to appear in a CO so they can feel sympathetic toward it as well ......btw....this has been recognised as the No 1 turnover killer Australia wide and the No 1 reason people get rid of slow horses at 4...hence falling racehorse numbers across the country.

Sometimes you just have to think beyond your own backyard.

Chariotsonfire

As I have said before imagine a Blue Diamond or Golden Slipper winner at the thoroughbreds fronting up in a maiden at Stony Creek.

Ludicrous on all fronts.

Gilgamesh

Kane_26 said:

I have no issue with the system personally as I've been on both sides of the fence and have been lucky enough to have one with above average ability. Re Jack Mac I believe if your lucky enough to get a decent horse you shouldn't be penalised to the point where your horse has to race essentially out of his grade to see if that's where they belong.

I understand it's frustrating to bump into them but there only there once, they win there race and move on there way. Just because we think (know) Jack Mac will win tonight doesn't mean he shouldn't have the right to go through his classes same as any unraced 4yo.

If an unraced 4yo trials and beats M2 horses before it's first start should we say no you can't win your maiden you go straight to town?

But the unraced 4yr old hasnt won 220k already. Jack Mac isnt winning trials, its winning feature races with great prize money.

Why does it or any other juvenile feature winner deserve to double dip?

Kane_26

He won the majority of his prize money as a 2yo @Gilgamesh, you can't penalise him as a 2yo as there's never a guarantee they'll come back as good as a 3yo. He's only won two three year old races one C class and one group 2 (his two free races), just because one was $50,000 you can't penalise him for being well placed.

I'll put it to the people who are of an opposing view to me this way, if you had a horse like Jack Mac and had to come back and race horses of M0 calibre and unfortunately was found to be on his mark as a 4yo and had to either retire him or sell him etc would you turn around and say "oh well it's ok I've won my money let someone win some" I think not. Unfortunately we'll all just have to agree to disagree.

curmudgeon

So....the winner of the Pearl and Golden Slipper plus another 6 "flukey" wins should be allowed to be "handicapped" as a non winner against the horses he meets in the  CO  tonight ....just in case two of his legs have fallen off ? 

Garbage.What an assessment disgrace.

JayJay

Can confirm he still has 4 legs...won by about 40 metres.

KTQ

Well from our perspective, we entered Jack for the 3yo Friday night GP race on June 1st and it was cancelled after acceptances. The next 3yo race he qualifies for isnt until June 15 and the one after that June 29. Are we expected to just race him twice a month and keep on jogging, jogging, jogging for weeks between races not earning a thing?

In fact until the end of the season, there are exactly 6 races he qualifies for now as a 3yo. Six. In 3 months. If last Friday's race is anything to go by, they're all be cancelled leaving him with 3 starts for the season. When Heza Head Honcho was a 3yo, we had the same problem. He was a 3C02 and by July, there were literally NO races for him because the GP races would fall through every week and he didn't qualify for the plethora of West Bred and filly races, 3C0 or 3C01 races and we had to spell him. 

We're hardly going to put him in an M0 as a 3yo, because if he wins, he loses all opportunity to race in the M0 conditioned Country races as an older horse, of which there is tremendous prize money to win and he misses all of the $25k/$50k heat and final GP races for M0 horses. Do we ruin his career opportunities by him becoming an M2 or M3 as a 3yo - leaving him with nothing to win as an older horse? Do we burn him out by making him race FFA horses as a 3yo? 

Every horse deserves the right to move through the classes - he'll never be in a C0 again now and you cannot arbitrarily pick and choose which race he deserves to be in based on the fact the 2yos last season were weak as p*ss and he luckily won two group 1s which increased his prize money. His 'flukey' races were against pretty average horses. Put him against the 2yos from this season or King Of Swing and he may not have 2 group 1s to his name. 

Compare him to a filly - Our Major Mumma. Is she not allowed to run in C0s because she won the Diamond (even at whatever $100 and something odds she won at). or is the concern because Jack has won pretty easy so far. If he was just getting in by a head or not winning, would you think differently?

We don't want to sell him to the US (and we won't. Much like Three Blind Mice, he'll retire to a lovely paddock on our farm) but when you have a good horse that is at an Msomething class as a 3yo, what are you supposed to do?

The difference Chariots between your example of Blue Diamond vs harness is most gallopers that win those kind of features race 12 times and retire with $4million + in the bank. Instead of racing in Stony Creek, they'll be in the next $300k race. Most harness horses at that level (and I'm making this number up) race 50+ times and earn $400k through tireless racing in everything that's available. Jack wouldn't be in C0 races if there were other races for him to be in.

and another thing. How is it that Halls and Bonds etc are allowed to buy these super priced NZ horses as 4yo C0s knowing that they're good, fly through the classes and then race week in week out at GP in FFAs? Isn't that basically the same thing, except they're unproven and Jack is?

Chariotsonfire

Races falling over raises another issue KTQ. When RWWA started releasing nominations before acceptances at the request of participants and a horse of the caliber of Jack Mac was in the field many scratch and the race does not go ahead.

Perhaps the new handicapping model will address these farcical situations as the industry can ill afford $1.04 pops on a regular basis.

Even the "tea lady" can pick 4 winners at a lot of meetings.

curmudgeon

Since Saturday 19th May...all Ro & Co's run in WA have been won by 3 y/o's including 1 x 2y/o and an exception being Packed and Ready at Narrogin. Based on previous experience this will continue until the end of the season unless clubs place a 4 y/o plus condition on those races.

Using Jack Mac's race to highlight the issue was a convenient way to indicate the disparity in ability and performance that can and does inhabit these "maiden" classes.

If not the best 3 y/o in the state Jack Mac is certainly in the top 5.....the problems faced in placing him in races pale when compared to those owners and trainers who have been jog jog jogging their ordinary Co's and Ro's for years and come April/May each year face the next crop of youngsters that start racing out of their age group in "maiden" races.  

Apart from the stifling of betting on those races they produce a significant disincentive to keep and continue to race battling open aged horses. Thus we have had significant shrinkage in the numbers of licensed personnel over recent years.

 

JayJay

Yes, it ain't easy at the moment, even with C3 or C4 horses......I have a limited ability C4 horse going currently around, far from hopeless but no world beater. Paying up for her and trainer doing a wonderful job but last 5 starts have been "no win, stay home situations". Races have been won by 2 x classy 3 year olds, a $110k stake earner dropping back and 2 really nice 4 year olds on the rise. Fair enough, it is racing, it is a competition but forced to go with junior drivers (which I have no complaint with, they all do a great job) just to try and get into races, and use the mare concession and then you draw the river and you have no chance. So what do you do? Spell them, sell them or just keep paying up hoping for a weak winnable race somewhere? It is a dilemma....maybe the new handicap system may help out but I say again, it's pretty hard to stay enthusiastic. With all the juvenile races at the moment, they aren't splitting many races into the "strong" and "weak" divisions and copping a few ballots with another of mine compounds the situation. Anyway, on we go, no one forces us to race horses, so just ride the punches....and the Kangaroos when returning from long treks to provincial venues.

Markovina

Just my opinion - but the West  its very hard to win races - GP Pinjarra  - then Northam and Bunbury very tough - and if you have an ordinary horse  - might win the last race - but then its only got a stake of 3k

If i had horses - the 3 areas in Australia id race them ( where it is not hard to win - (1) NSW Riverina - ive mentioned that several times - Trison - whats it  done over here in a dozen starts - run 1 second - if Douglass had sent it to Wagga it would have won 3-4  (2) Tamworth - they have about 25 meetings a year - plus about 10 other meetings in surrounding areas - there like Central Wheatbelt type horses - the Weidaman clan - Lola and Julie and that - who dont get a look in at AP and Redcliffe - wins are very few and far between . However she sends truckloads down to Tamworth ( the locals must hate her guts ) and she is making a living out of winning a stack of Tamworth races . (3) Mildura - again about 25 meetings a year - youve got Swan Hill up the road - and a few tracks about the area - low grade horses - decent prizemoney -  again not hard to win

Youve got to go where its easy -you look at Bathurst - that would be one of the last places i would send horses - youve got all the Turnbulls - Bernie Hewitt and his mob - pretty high std horses ex NZ  - very competitive - very few crumbs for the battlers - 12 horse fields and difficult to win races

JayJay

Point well made Marko....my trainer goes everywhere but it might stretch the friendship if I started suggesting the NSW Riverina as an option.

:D

I think it is probably pretty difficult everywhere in WA, particularly Pinjarra GP and Bunbury ....not many easy races at any track....and once you have jagged a couple of wins, starting in R races at Central Wheatbelt, and they are very well subscribed meetings considering the majority of their races are for $3.5k,  is not an option as many are reverse point races, and the C2 or better races for $6k often attract a Daniel John or something which has $290k in the bank and you are on a hiding to nothing. And the C5-C9 races at Narrogin and Northam are very strong races. I don't have enough expertise to come up with a solution with the programming side of things, and it is easier to highlight the reality than it is to provide a solution. Perhaps the handicapping change may help, perhaps it will result in queues at the knackery, I don't know.

curmudgeon

Vexed I think is the description

KTQ

C5-C9 races are stupid in my opinion. The difference between a C5 and a C9 is astronomical. 

Basically, they need to get rid of all previous preconceptions about what handicapping should look like and start from scratch. Take into account the various levels of trainer (Bonds vs Alabisi vs Dymock vs De Campo), the horses that are ACTUALLY nominating every month, the size of stables, the distances trainers have to travel to get a race they have a chance in, the distribution of prize money per meeting (surely it's not fair for R0 level horses to only have the chance to race in R0 valued races. Do C0 carry reverse points order conditions ever?)

Why are all the biggest 4yo and 3yo races grouped within a 2month period? For the rest of the year, there's nothing for those horses that win those races (except C0s haha). Why are there not races specifically put aside for trainers who haven't won in x months, who have less than 10 horses in work, who have won less than x prize money in the past 12 months? Curmudgeon, the 4yo+ condition would definitely work, but 3yos who have won more than a race or two still need a solution.

and why are there not more races at Bunbury! Just looking at the top trainers at that track indicates that it's better suited to country trainers because of it's proximity to many of seasonal tracks (and being from Busselton, it's much easier than 2 x GP and 1 x PJ trips a week). 

and they need to be more flexible with their programs! If races aren't standing up but horses are nominating, then change the conditions to suit the horses nominating the week after but it seems they make programs months and months out and won't change anything closer to the date. Hence races fall through and Jack Mac races in the next best option.