GP- WA Pacing Cup (Gp1) & Norms Daughter Classic (F&M, Gp2)Harness & Greyhounds

warrenrobinson

Nothing like the facts JayJay

AbbysAce

I would not say running against Melton, Menangle, Albion Park, Globe Derby, Harness racing punters are likely to bet on multiple meeings, the problem is the first 5 races are on sky 2.

By the time a race is on sky 1 it is 10.30pm at least in the east.

How come other harness meetings are on sky 1?

Maybe GP management should try and address that issue?

warrenrobinson

Nothing to do with GP totally RWWA"s responsibility.

JayJay

I see where you are coming from Abby, but faced with identifying with Leap To Fame or Swayzee in a main race at Melton or Albion Park versus some beginners in a maiden at Bunbury, I think punters are more likely to go with what they know.

Certainly, Sky 2 doesn't help but RWWA is controlled by Sky, they even set the start of times of races. Despite GP having huge influence down at Hasler drive, ultimately it is RWWA's fight to get the the best deal for harness but it is catch 22. Our turnover is too dismal to hold any weight.

A double page 'fluff" piece in today's Sunday Times talking up the Ascot Carnival, not a printed word in The West all  week in the lead up to the Pacing Cup. I am sure articles would have been written and submitted but the Sports Editor at The West has obviously decided the product is a dead duck. RWWA is supposed to promote all three codes equally as part of it's charter ....but it clearly doesn't.

Markovina

Well maybe what the WA Trots should do , to get a bit of publicity is pay the West Aust Newspaper to have 1 full page on WA Trotting each week , Thursday would be a good day 

And that is exactly what the Syd Swans did years back when i was living over their . These were very grim days Buckenara had coached them to 23 straight losses , and no one in the Syd media gave a rats aarse about the Swans , the only time they got a mention was when they looked like they would be finally liquidated , or another coach had been fired 

So the Swans paid the Syd Telegraph newspaper  to have 1 full page a week on the Swans , i reckon it was money well spent , people got some club information on a weekly basis . Alot of companies/organisations , with the Marketing money/budget they just piiss it away on nonsense , and get no return benefit

Frog

Not one story in the West Friday for the pacing cup.

Plus no adverts in the paper for pacing cup , nothing 

on Italian night or fireworks or WA pacing cup hopes.

Who do you blame GP or RWWA. Gee it was 

live on free to air years ago. Now only on Tab radio

talking to family and friends. (plus Sky channel)

warrenrobinson

Poor managers make poor decisions.

Muldoon

Markovina said:

Well maybe what the WA Trots should do , to get a bit of publicity is pay the West Aust Newspaper to have 1 full page on WA Trotting each week , Thursday would be a good day 

And that is exactly what the Syd Swans did years back when i was living over their . These were very grim days Buckenara had coached them to 23 straight losses , and no one in the Syd media gave a rats aarse about the Swans , the only time they got a mention was when they looked like they would be finally liquidated , or another coach had been fired 

So the Swans paid the Syd Telegraph newspaper  to have 1 full page a week on the Swans , i reckon it was money well spent , people got some club information on a weekly basis . Alot of companies/organisations , with the Marketing money/budget they just piiss it away on nonsense , and get no return benefit

Back in the day my old company in Kal, placed an ad in the West, I know what it cost & how much space it took up, back then a full page Ad cost was astronomical, maybe in todays market not as bad, but would cost a pretty penny.

Chopchop43

JayJay said:

What we do is we make a constructive submission (in my case 6 pages) to the widely circulated Issues Paper produced by Cameron Brown and make positive suggestions on:

• Handicapping, handicapping and handicapping, to produce a competitive racing product that punters who have rejected the often referred to on this forum  "broken product" of uncompetitive racing.
  
• Programming under the New Handicapping system that produces opportunities for horses of all abilities to race competitively  and that reduces snorefests and the overwhelming prevalence of $1.20 favourites.
• A realignment of stakemoney distribution away from the current model of "over focus" on the top end making the product more viable for the broad majority of participants. An immediate boost to the base levels of stake funding.
  
• A realignment of the calendar to inject some sequence. logic and parity into a focussed, programmed country cups circuit.
• A focus on broadening the footprint (as opposed to shrinking it) by making engagement of more participants a priority by reallocating funding  (of in particular the $24.7 million dollars for GP redevelopment with an undisclosed/unknown  return on investment) to an on course stabling and training centre to improve the viability for young participants to enter and be retained in the Industry.
• A thorough review of the timeslots and days/nights that we race as exposed in the Issues Paper for both metropolitan and country venues.
  

These are just a sample of some of the ideas presented by the 7 clubs, the two Industry Associations and the over 30 individuals who bothered to actually sit down, take off their rose coloured glasses, acknowledge the appalling financial crisis that is evident to all who can read a balance sheet and put their ideas in writing for submission to the RWWA Board. 

To those who can't see that the folly of operating your prime Metro venue at 38 cents (or less) in the dollar on a Friday Night (RWWA facts, not mine) is completely and utterly unacceptable, to those who think that anyone daring to criticise current practices is simply advocating a return to the "nostalgia of the past" ( a much trotted out load of old fallacious flannel), to those who don't acknowledge that every single "reinvigoration" or 'future proofing" (call it what you like) initiative thrust upon the industry in the last decade or more (the NBM that achieved none of its KPI's, multiple million dollar Interdominions, Slot races, shifting the WA cup date almost biannually, changing the "date" for age determination (what has that done for us, I ask?) or going back further, the failed rationalisation of country clubs and tracks or even the introduction of Artificial Insemination that has been rejected by the Thoroughbreds who still retain a viable breeding industry and I could go on.

Doubtless, you have all sat down and made a submission or submissions, doubtless you have canvassed your mates for positive suggestions, doubtless you have attended you industry association groups to support their efforts .....or maybe not. 

Because to continue what we are doing basically unchanged as many of you suggest, without coming up with a SINGLE suggestion that I have read of what we might actually do, other than shrinking the footprint, then  generating just $12.4 million turnover dollars per annum plus another $11 million in POC Tax of the $59 million it costs to put the show on each years will most definitely lead to Industry collapse.

sorry JayJay but I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you here, alot of us have been all for change, but because it doesn't align with everyone else's narrative it is essentially labelled as garbage and self interest on our behalf, the fact of the matter is we are all in this industry for ourselves and strive to make a quid on our horses . Now as for the reasoning why alot of us don't make suggestions and take the time out of our busy day to liaise with those in the upper management of harness racing in this state to offer said suggestions to help rebuild the industry its very very simple, they don't care about the industry and they don't care for the opinions of its participants, you might aswell go have a conversation with a brick wall , on planet would you get rid of one failed handicapping system just to replace it with another handicapping system that is nationally hated, what exactly are the causes for optimism in this situation?? Is it because Cam Brown who helped create that tyre fire of a system pissed in everyone's pockets and promised them it was only water?? The one thing I'll agree with you on is the industry is stagnate and needs change , how they go about that change well who knows I don't think any idea is a bad idea at the moment, but rehashing a failed and widely despised NR system is not a step forward

JayJay

You say a lot of you "have been all for change", well that is great to hear but where are your proposals, lay them on the table, what are your suggestions?

What are the suggestions that "upper management" has put up a brick wall to? If HWOE is a failure and if you believe National Ratings is a failure, enlighten us with what you believe the handicapping system should look like. Are you advocating a return to M/C/R or more stands or what?  If "no ideas at the moment are bad ideas", lets put them out there. Plenty of others have done so but maybe I missed something that has been put out for discussion? 

What is tiresome is to be constantly labelled as nostalgia tragics living in the 70's or 80's or whatever simply because of a belief, supported by uncompromising data, that current practices are sending the Industry down the plughole. Some of the past practices that were in place when the Industry was the leading code should not be dismissed as nostalgia and bound to fail simply because they are "old".

Markovina

GP Tuesday Night 

Ive had something E/W on Race 6  number 5  You Fly With Me @ $10 , its just a horse but this is  just a field 

It was going terrible , but last start ( 1st for Giles Inwood ) and it was decent strong effort , breeze wouldnrt be a bad spot tonight 

The fave tonight deadset dogged it , in the home straight last start , no fear about it , J Youngs horse , 1st start for her is an unknown quantity , and it has trimmed up in the market 

Chopchop43

JayJay said:

You say a lot of you "have been all for change", well that is great to hear but where are your proposals, lay them on the table, what are your suggestions?

What are the suggestions that "upper management" has put up a brick wall to? If HWOE is a failure and if you believe National Ratings is a failure, enlighten us with what you believe the handicapping system should look like. Are you advocating a return to M/C/R or more stands or what?  If "no ideas at the moment are bad ideas", lets put them out there. Plenty of others have done so but maybe I missed something that has been put out for discussion? 

What is tiresome is to be constantly labelled as nostalgia tragics living in the 70's or 80's or whatever simply because of a belief, supported by uncompromising data, that current practices are sending the Industry down the plughole. Some of the past practices that were in place when the Industry was the leading code should not be dismissed as nostalgia and bound to fail simply because they are "old".

Just because we haven't spilt our guts on this forum doesn't mean we haven't submitted ideas 'upstairs' . MCR system would be s godsend compared too these 2 systems I thought the drop back rule after 10 starts was fair, the programming seemed spot on and there were a ton of races where you could use a jnr driver to not just gain a start but actually draw a barrier too incentivising us as trainers to use a jnr driver , and allowing jnr drivers to get an easier leg up in the industry, unfortunately alot of the people who complained about that system are now the ones complaining against HWOE and will most likely complain about the NR system once there average 100 start maiden continues to not race competitively, unfortunately your never going to keep everyone happy , but rwwa need to find a system that will keep the majority happy, also tell me this jayjay if the NR system is nationally hated over east (have a look at any post on Facebook or on any forum and you'll see this is the case) what makes you think it will work here ?? It might be better than what we have here already but will it be good enough to bring more owners into the industry , because at the moment , and this probably leads into another contentious issue, with the ever shrinking pool of horses we have, having the amount of tracks that we do at the moment for the pool of horses we have just can't be sustainable surely i know ill cop flack for mentioning it but it's the elephant in the room that we have to accept it staring us in thr face

I'm all for the nostalgia of the 70s, 80s and early 90s I grew up with a copy of "Vin Knights A Knight To Remember" on repeat as a 5-6 year old at awe of the crowds that flocked to these tracks, which is why I'm saying it's not just an WA issue because in comparison Melton and menagnle are dead compared to Mooney Valley and Harold Park , the fact of the matter is while it's great to reflect on those points in time, the industry has changed and we will never get it back to those days, so instead of thinking what did we do back then that we can bring back to the industry now , why don't people just look at the future and say "hey what can we do to keep up with the evolution of racing before we continue to fall into irrelevance" what initiatve or ideas can we throw out there that might even be a bit left field to bring eyes to the product nationally

JayJay

Until I see your "ideas submitted upstairs", I can't possibly comment. We wait with baited breath.

warrenrobinson

Chopchop, you need to read the WACHRA submission 2023 which was based on facts before posting your opinion on this forum. Opinions are worthless without facts. 

warrenrobinson

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein.

JimmyPop

I am sorry boys (maybe some girls) but the industry is cooked.

No disrespect to everyone who works within or punts on the product but it is tired and unable to be resuscitated. It doesn't matter what is tries nothing will succeed. Fire back and say, "what do you suggest smart ****'" Nothing, nothing at all, the industry isn't appealing anymore.

I was in disbelief looking at WA turnover figures recently. I was shocked. The local industry is being propped up by the other codes and obviously product fees.

You can throw in these ridiculous short course races at Pinjarra and Melton but they are pointless. I just don't think anything can be done to rekindle any love for the standardbred, at least from a punting perspective.

The same old arguments have been dished up for as long as I can remember. The worst of those is handicapping. It has always been handicapping. It doesn't matter what handicapping system is in place there has always been arguments. Drop back rules, there are arguments. Free races for juveniles, there are arguments. The old M and C class races had plenty of merit but they were raped and pillaged through the years. There was a bit of class once with the trots when your horse had to be a C4 to race in M0 company. That was cheapened badly. The old qualifying stakes days were fantastic but they had detractors. 

The latest change lost me all together, what a load of mind numbing ****. See below R1 GP Friday.

L5$ LT $20,000. 3YO and older. L5$ LESS THAN $20,000 (CONCESSIONS L5$ LESS THAN $22,500) NOT ELIGIBLE Horses with Max Start Level 13+ Last 5 Starts NOT ELIGIBLE Horses with Max Win Level 10+ Last 5 Starts Preference to HWOE $40,000+

For Gods Sake.

I wish there was an easy answer but there isn't. The industry will keep going but it will creep closer to a cottage industry as each year passes. It cannot improve as there is no publicity generated, the media do not want to know harness racing. Clubs have to close as the volunteer is slowly dying out.

Many of us remember the halcyon days, the greats like Pure Steel, Preux Chevalier, Zakara, San Simeon, Red Vicar, Village Kid, Chandon, Saab, Southern Knight, Norm's Daughter and of course Mount Eden. How do we forget the Match Race of The Century. I could keep going as I have left out so many of my favourites like Yankee Rhythm, Stitchintime and Bravado Gold (not a superstar but I loved him)

We will always remember the great nights at Gloucester Park. Please don't say that I'm metro central, I am only highlighting the great horses, that brought people to the track.

It is a shame but many once good things die. These days you cannot buy hazelnut rolls or jelly tips.

Harness racing will always hold a place in our hearts.

JayJay

On cue, a dispersal sale of racing stock and successful broodmares, some for free, hits the market place this afternoon. Not a great sign.

Yearling sales noms are way up for the next sale, around 170+, clearance rate will be a barometer of confidence.

Chopchop43

JayJay said:

Until I see your "ideas submitted upstairs", I can't possibly comment. We wait with baited breath.

I'm not asking you to comment , I've come on here stated my opinion, which I believe Warren is is the whole point of a forum (also facts can be twisted and misconstrued to fit the agendas of others) . At the end of the day whatever rwwa choose to do is always going to have its detractors, we can all say that what we want is what's best for the industry, but at the end of the day self interest is always going to come into play foremost because if our horses aren't earning we are most likely moving them on ill at least have the guts to say on here that my opinion is due to my self interest

warrenrobinson

Certainly don't do twisted or misconstrued facts.

Chopchop43

warrenrobinson said:

Certainly don't do twisted or misconstrued facts.

never said you did just saying facts and figures can be twisted and misconstrued to fit certain narratives all you have to do is look at poltics

warrenrobinson

The WA Pacing Cup originally was run New Years so maybe we need to return to around that period. The Christmas Gift was run with heats and final pre Christmas followed by the Christmas Handicap then the Pacing Cup on New Year. The New Year Handicap was run one week after the Cup for fast class horses only (great race).